Public service pay cut?

Pogue eile

Pogue eile wrote: »

Better than what - the average bear?

Your question doesn't really make sense.

Read your post.

enricoh

Bertie bought a couple of elections by massively increasing the ps and welfare spend , the benchmarking atm anyone?!
When the house building money dried up the imf had to be called in.
As soon as we got a few quid back in that was spent on reversing the ps cuts and foreva homes. Now the corporation tax that pays for it is drying up. We better discover an oil field or two pronto to keep the show on the road!

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/big-changes-on-corporation-tax-coming-after-joe-bidens-21pc-flat-rate-proposal-warns-paschal-donohoe-40335580.html

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

Yets its down to everyone to foot the bill for public sector employees for payrise good bad or ugly?

If you want good services you have to pay for them Fliball.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you want good services you have to pay for them Fliball.

Are services good? Or have we just gotten used to the way they are?

Sultan of Bling

fliball123 wrote:

You mean contractors who are actually not full time employees in the public sector thats a different kettle of fish altogether.

You said no public sector employees lost their jobs during the financial crisis.

I'm just pointing out that they did.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Yets its down to everyone to foot the bill for public sector employees for payrise good bad or ugly?

Well, yes. It is a public expenditure, same as all other public expenditures - and yes, it is down to everyone to pay for it. Sorry if that comes as a shock to you, but that is the budgetary reality.

fliball123 wrote: »

You mean contractors who are actually not full time employees in the public sector thats a different kettle of fish altogether.

No, they mean full-time employees on fixed term contracts. Please pay attention now.

fliball123 wrote: »

Imagine looking for a pay rise and being late this many times in the private sector. You would of been booted out the door
https://www.thejournal.ie/worker-late-wrc-4055842-Jun2018/

Thanks for confirming that, contrary to the impression you gave earlier, increments are tightly managed and aren't given out like confetti.

fliball123 wrote: »

Absenteeism
https://www.cipd.ie/news-resources/reports/hr-practices-ireland-survey/2020#gref

What the CIPD don't tell you is that private sector employers measure absenteeism differently. In the public sector, if you're ill on Friday and Monday, then Saturday and Sunday count as absentee days. That doesn't happen in the private sector. So you're comparing apples and oranges again.

fliball123 wrote: »

No accountability.
I could go on looking at the many scandals - xrays, smear text, gardai whistle blowers and breathalyzer blowers, ministers not actual there but a vote cast for them (just one of the many int the political sphere) or in the civil service Kevo Cardiff losing 3billion on a accounting mistake and getting a promotion, etc etc etc ..How many got fired?? Answers on the back of a postcard please

Yes, you could go on - why don't you go on about all the scandals in the private sector, including the ones that bankrupted the country in the first place and tell us who was held accountable for those? How many got fired? Answers on the back of a postcard please... Who got fired in the private sector labs that misread the smear tests? Answers on the back of a postcard please...
Unlike the private sector, the public sector has to wash all its dirty linen in public. It doesn't get to sweep dirt under the carpet.

AndrewJRenko

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

You said no public sector employees lost their jobs during the financial crisis.

I'm just pointing out that they did.

Despite the impression you get from listening to Joe Duffy, outcomes in the health sector in areas like cancer, stroke have come on in leaps and bounds in recent years, but some people prefer to pick out a few odd incidents and get all riled up about those.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

If you want good services you have to pay for them Fliball.

Thats the problem we are overpaying and not getting the service we need case in point the HSE we spend more per person on in the OCED at least it was back in 2018 and it has jumped signiificantly in the last year with covid

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/state-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth%2Fstate-among-highest-spenders-on-health-per-person-in-oecd-1.3547256

Up one place from 2016 and with the poorest outcomes
http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-second-highest-OECD-health-spending-poorest-outcomes-506

So we are overpaying and not getting it and with payrises we will be asked to pay more

fliball123

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

You said no public sector employees lost their jobs during the financial crisis.

I'm just pointing out that they did.

Is a contractor not considered an employee of the agency they are contracted through?

Sultan of Bling

fliball123 wrote:

Is a contractor not considered an employee of the agency they are contracted through?

I'm not referring to agency staff.

I'm referring to the public sector staff.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Well, yes. It is a public expenditure, same as all other public expenditures - and yes, it is down to everyone to pay for it. Sorry if that comes as a shock to you, but that is the budgetary reality.


No, they mean full-time employees on fixed term contracts. Please pay attention now.


Thanks for confirming that, contrary to the impression you gave earlier, increments are tightly managed and aren't given out like confetti.


What the CIPD don't tell you is that private sector employers measure absenteeism differently. In the public sector, if you're ill on Friday and Monday, then Saturday and Sunday count as absentee days. That doesn't happen in the private sector. So you're comparing apples and oranges again.



Yes, you could go on - why don't you go on about all the scandals in the private sector, including the ones that bankrupted the country in the first place and tell us who was held accountable for those? How many got fired? Answers on the back of a postcard please... Who got fired in the private sector labs that misread the smear tests? Answers on the back of a postcard please...
Unlike the private sector, the public sector has to wash all its dirty linen in public. It doesn't get to sweep dirt under the carpet.

yeah and who phucking let them do it, where was the public sector financial regulator?? asleep at the wheel good auld Patrick Neary and what happened to him he got 630k for sleeping his way through the financial crash and all out of our pockets and and the government who signed it in last I checked they were all PS.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/news/630000-golden-handshake-for-the-bungling-banks-watchdog-pat-neary-27901281.html

2 banks hit the wall then and dont get me wrong I have absolutely zero time or sympathy for the greedy bankers (that word should start with a W) and the crap with Anglo and Uber Alles but the effect is still being felt in their sector with people not earning anywhere near what they did back in the boom before 2008.

AS for smear tests the buck stops with the public sector for smear tests that were misread and in some cases they didnt inform patients on time get your facts straight on that one please. These ladies did not pay taxes to our government for a private clinic they paid them so they could get a decent service from the HSE who outsourced this.

So the banks cost 64 billion minus what stakes we have in both AIB and BOI so we will find out what the banks cost when they are sold most commentators put it at about 42Billion of a debt they will have rung up for the tax payer.

https://www.pai.ie/bank-bailout-costs-state-nearly-e42-billion/

Now 42 billion + 40 billion for the pandemic thats 82 billion accounted for out of a debt of 240 have one guess what the other 158Billion was borrowed for?? Yeah you guessed it the more than doubling of both welfare and ps pay and pensions through the early naughties bench marked twice against the private sector of course this can only be done when it brings ps pay up and of course all records of the bench marking fiasco were shredded and the narrative now is "you cant compare the two" is spun its like unions and governments think we have selective amnesia. This was all done in the early naughties all built on the premise that the stamp duty lottery was going to be the gravy train that the piggies could keep swilling from. jump to 2008 and the property market hit the sh1ts and you guys took cuts (small ones at that) fast forward 2021 and the gravy is being provided by the corporation taxes and in the next couple of years 6 billion( half ) will be taken away and if we start putting other taxes like a solidarity taxes we are going to see our taxation go down instead of up as both MNCs stop investing or pull out completely and high net worth individuals will WFH in a different lower taxed country.

fliball123

Sultan of Bling wrote: »

I'm not referring to agency staff.

I'm referring to the public sector staff.

Had they a full time contract?

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Had they a full time contract?

Yes

Sarn

In the PS it is often a case that new employees start on contracts before being made permanent. They wouldn’t be considered contractors.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Yes

OK so did they get redundancy and was it forced

https://www.ahcps.ie/Voluntary_Redundancy_in_the_Public_Service_Collective_Agreement/Default.399.html

https://www.publicjobs.ie/restapi/documents/NEWCriteria_regarding_Public_%26_Civil_Service_Redundancy_and_Ill_Health_Retirement_Schemes.pdf

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

OK so did they get redundancy and was it forced

https://www.ahcps.ie/Voluntary_Redundancy_in_the_Public_Service_Collective_Agreement/Default.399.html

https://www.publicjobs.ie/restapi/documents/NEWCriteria_regarding_Public_%26_Civil_Service_Redundancy_and_Ill_Health_Retirement_Schemes.pdf

No

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No

Where they within their probation period?

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

yeah and who phucking let them do it, where was the public sector financial regulator?? asleep at the wheel good auld Patrick Neary and what happened to him he got 630k for sleeping his way through the financial crash and all out of our pockets and and the government who signed it in last I checked they were all PS.

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/herald/news/630000-golden-handshake-for-the-bungling-banks-watchdog-pat-neary-27901281.html

2 banks hit the wall then and dont get me wrong I have absolutely zero time or sympathy for the greedy bankers (that word should start with a W) and the crap with Anglo and Uber Alles but the effect is still being felt in their sector with people not earning anywhere near what they did back in the boom before 2008.

AS for smear tests the buck stops with the public sector for smear tests that were misread and in some cases they didnt inform patients on time get your facts straight on that one please. These ladies did not pay taxes to our government for a private clinic they paid them so they could get a decent service from the HSE who outsourced this.

So the banks cost 64 billion minus what stakes we have in both AIB and BOI so we will find out what the banks cost when they are sold most commentators put it at about 42Billion of a debt they will have rung up for the tax payer.

https://www.pai.ie/bank-bailout-costs-state-nearly-e42-billion/

Now 42 billion + 40 billion for the pandemic thats 82 billion accounted for out of a debt of 240 have one guess what the other 158Billion was borrowed for?? Yeah you guessed it the more than doubling of both welfare and ps pay and pensions through the early naughties bench marked twice against the private sector of course this can only be done when it brings ps pay up and of course all records of the bench marking fiasco were shredded and the narrative now is "you cant compare the two" is spun its like unions and governments think we have selective amnesia. This was all done in the early naughties all built on the premise that the stamp duty lottery was going to be the gravy train that the piggies could keep swilling from. jump to 2008 and the property market hit the sh1ts and you guys took cuts (small ones at that) fast forward 2021 and the gravy is being provided by the corporation taxes and in the next couple of years 6 billion( half ) will be taken away and if we start putting other taxes like a solidarity taxes we are going to see our taxation go down instead of up as both MNCs stop investing or pull out completely and high net worth individuals will WFH in a different lower taxed country.

The Financial Regulator implemented the 'light touch regulation' policy and legislation dreamed up by McCreevy and McDowell, because we wouldn't want to be constricting those lovely lads in the private sector, like Fingers and Fitzpatrick and more. So if you want to complain about regulation, go talk to the people who voted for FF/PD alliance and their light touch principles. Presumably, you never voted for any of these people yourself, right?

And why exactly do you choose those particular aspects of public spending as being responsible for the deficit? You do know that public spending goes beyond public sector wages, right? Why don't you pick supports to businesses, for example, or capital costs of infrastructure (payments to private businesses), or ICT outsourcing costs (payments to private businesses)? Why aren't these payments responsible for the deficit, and not the ones that suit your ideological bias?

Those ladies may have paid their taxes, but they also voted for parties that had the outsourcing agenda, getting everything on the cheap instead of investing and paying people properly. But it's fascinating to see how enthusiastic you are to let the labs off the hook - no questions about accountability or who got fired there, for some strange reason!

Take off the blinkers and see what's really happening. What's behind your personal bias, btw? Did you get failed in the HEO exam or something?

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Where they within their probation period?

No

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The Financial Regulator implemented the 'light touch regulation' policy and legislation dreamed up by McCreevy and McDowell, because we wouldn't want to be constricting those lovely lads in the private sector, like Fingers and Fitzpatrick and more. So if you want to complain about regulation, go talk to the people who voted for FF/PD alliance and their light touch principles. Presumably, you never voted for any of these people yourself, right?

And why exactly do you choose those particular aspects of public spending as being responsible for the deficit? You do know that public spending goes beyond public sector wages, right? Why don't you pick supports to businesses, for example, or capital costs of infrastructure (payments to private businesses), or ICT outsourcing costs (payments to private businesses)? Why aren't these payments responsible for the deficit, and not the ones that suit your ideological bias?

Those ladies may have paid their taxes, but they also voted for parties that had the outsourcing agenda, getting everything on the cheap instead of investing and paying people properly. But it's fascinating to see how enthusiastic you are to let the labs off the hook - no questions about accountability or who got fired there, for some strange reason!

Take off the blinkers and see what's really happening. What's behind your personal bias, btw? Did you get failed in the HEO exam or something?

I would never work in the PS too many clock watchers I would go crazy..So you agree it was the financial regulator who brought this in regardless of who was asking him this person was employed by taxpayers not fingers or fitzy (although I reckon he got quite a few brown envelopes from them). What is sickening is he got a 630k pay off after phucking it up and it goes to the core of why I dont think the public sector should be getting pay rises. There is feck all accountability. The labs were a tool used by the public sector basically if I shot you would the gun be put on trial for the murder of you? No it would be the person who shot you or in other words the people these ladies thought were looking after them. The HSE. The HSE should of done its due diligence with regards to who they were outsourcing and its obvious in hindsight they didnt.

Also just on timing you can see on this thread there was a long gap between posts because we had turned a corner back in 2019 the deficit was bridged we even had a few quid for a rainy day fund. Now in 2021 we are back worse than 2008. Now if you think I am going at you hammer and tong, wait till corona goes and the unemployment rate spikes people on PUP will be taking a cut in their welfare by 100 euro thats when the question will be asked by the majority how the hell are the PS getting payrises in this environment

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

I would never work in the PS too many clock watchers I would go crazy..So you agree it was the financial regulator who brought this in regardless of who was asking him this person was employed by taxpayers not fingers or fitzy (although I reckon he got quite a few brown envelopes from them). What is sickening is he got a 630k pay off after phucking it up and it goes to the core of why I dont think the public sector should be getting pay rises. There is feck all accountability. The labs were a tool used by the public sector basically if I shot you would the gun be put on trial for the murder of you? No it would be the person who shot you or in other words the people these ladies thought were looking after them. The HSE. The HSE should of done its due diligence with regards to who they were outsourcing and its obvious in hindsight they didnt.

Also just on timing you can see on this thread there was a long gap between posts because we had turned a corner back in 2019 the deficit was bridged we even had a few quid for a rainy day fund. Now in 2021 we are back worse than 2008. Now if you think I am going at you hammer and tong, wait till corona goes and the unemployment rate spikes people on PUP will be taking a cut in their welfare by 100 euro thats when the question will be asked by the majority how the hell are the PS getting payrises in this environment

Did you just completely ignore the facts about the source of the light touch regulation environment because it doesn't suit your agenda?

I still haven't got back the salary cuts taken off me last time round. You're not going to get a second shot at me.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Did you just completely ignore the facts about the source of the light touch regulation environment because it doesn't suit your agenda?

I still haven't got back the salary cuts taken off me last time round. You're not going to get a second shot at me.

No but you did it was implemented by the financial regulator. Now does the financial regulator work for a bank? Is he a private sector employee ? ? the financial regulator should of been protecting the tax payer not the banks. Too many brown envelopes were slipped into his pocket

As for the 2nd shot I dont want your pay cut as it means we are back in sh1tsville but thats where we are and what do we do keep borrowing indefinitely and wait for the IMF to come back to town or should we start thinking maybe at the moment its not a good idea to up our outgoings if we can. Look welfare needs to be cut to hell as well. As does spend on anything we cant afford.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

No but you did it was implemented by the financial regulator. Now does the financial regulator work for a bank? Is he a private sector employee ? ? the financial regulator should of been protecting the tax payer not the banks. Too many brown envelopes were slipped into his pocket

As for the 2nd shot I dont want your pay cut as it means we are back in sh1tsville but thats where we are and what do we do keep borrowing indefinitely and wait for the IMF to come back to town or should we start thinking maybe at the moment its not a good idea to up our outgoings if we can. Look welfare needs to be cut to hell as well. As does spend on anything we cant afford.

The Financial Regulator can only work within the legislation he is given - light touch regulation in this case. He can't make it up as he goes along.

And yet again, there's a lot more to public spending than just public salaries. Take off the blinkers.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The Financial Regulator can only work within the legislation he is given - light touch regulation in this case. He can't make it up as he goes along.

And yet again, there's a lot more to public spending than just public salaries. Take off the blinkers.

I have said welfare and other spending needs to be cut as well, we sure as sh1t cant con the tax payer like last time with the TEMPORARY USC tax now can we.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

I have said welfare and other spending needs to be cut as well, we sure as sh1t cant con the tax payer like last time with the TEMPORARY USC tax now can we.

Which other spending needs to be cut?

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Which other spending needs to be cut?

All areas and not cut but stalled same goes with Ps payrises and increments I would stall it all till after covid goes and see what way the finances are. The government have 2 things that may help - inflation which is a long shot and will brings its own problems and the economy may go off like a house on fire when corona goes (personally I hope this happens) if it happens and we are back at a deficit of zero then by all means people who have proven to have done a good job in the ps should be rewarded but when the cashflow for these payrsies are at risk I think its a stupid decision to go ahead with them in the current climate. I have outlined the numerous threats that will be coming into force with regards to our tax take.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Interest rates are low and the government has already rolled over a lot of the 200billion we were in debt of before corona to lower interest rates which is good but these will need to be rolled over again and the rates cannot go much lower meaning they will go higher the interest alone for our borrowing is going to cost anywhere in the region of 7/10Billion a year within the next 3-5 years.

Like you, I am worried about the size of the fiscal deficit and debt.

However, the interest bill will not be rising to 7-10 bn within the next 3-5 years.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No

Have you anything to back that up

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Like you, I am worried about the size of the fiscal deficit and debt.

However, the interest bill will not be rising to 7-10 bn within the next 3-5 years.

So do you agree that we are currently 17Billion in the hole for deficit and I have shown that there is a real threat to our corporation tax take to the tune of 6billion that would bring it to 23Billion at the very least. Then it all depends on decisions the government takes any addition tax on labour will see less money coming in as tax rates for working are already punitive at a relatively low rate so we could see more cash going from the coffers..Also if interest rates rise and we will have to roll over our debt at some stage in the future we could see the interest being paid rising up this much. 5/6 years of the current deficit levels and we will be up in the 350Billion figure for debt, throw in a mere 1% interest rate hike and that adds 3.5Billion of interest to our debt. I think both the 350Billion and 1% interest rate rising in 5/6 years is a pretty conservative guesstimate.

I just think its barmy to give a payrise right now no point in giving it this year if its going to have to be taken away in 2/3/4/5 years time.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

So do you agree that we are currently 17Billion in the hole for deficit and I have shown that there is a real threat to our corporation tax take to the tune of 6billion that would bring it to 23Billion at the very least. Then it all depends on decisions the government takes any addition tax on labour will see less money coming in as tax rates for working are already punitive at a relatively low rate so we could see more cash going from the coffers..Also if interest rates rise and we will have to roll over our debt at some stage in the future we could see the interest being paid rising up this much. 5/6 years of the current deficit levels and we will be up in the 350Billion figure for debt, throw in a mere 1% interest rate hike and that adds 3.5Billion of interest to our debt. I think both the 350Billion and 1% interest rate rising in 5/6 years is a pretty conservative guesstimate.

I just think its barmy to give a payrise right now no point in giving it this year if its going to have to be taken away in 2/3/4/5 years time.

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/43a6dd-stability-programme-update-2020/

2020 GG deficit of -7.4% GDP / -13.3% of GNI*
2020 GG balance = -23bn

2020 Exchequer balance = -15.5bn

2020 end year debt = 125% of GNI*



Please note that the average costs of debt has been falling, so new cheaper debt has been replacing older, higher interest debt.

The yield has been below 1% since 2016.

From the NTMA:

https://www.ntma.ie/uploads/banners/NTMA-Investor-Presentation-April-2021.pdf

NTMA issued €99.5bn MLT debt since 2015; 13.1 yr. weighted maturity; avg. rate 0.76%



Yes, you are correct, Govts have been postponing making difficult decisions. Ageing is going to put pressure on the public finances.

I accept that a pay pause, rather than 1% + 1% in 2021 and 2022 makes more sense.

However, given the:

• lack of appetite for spending restraint
• very low interest environment
• ECB programmes like PEPP helping Govts to borrow
• nurses/doctors doing COVID work, etc.

then politically / realistically, it is difficult to implement a pay pause.