Public service pay cut?

EddieN75

fliball123 wrote: »

Well go on tell us how we get out of the current mess then?

Cut 10% of non essential public sector workers and pay freeze the rest.

Essential would be medical, law enforcement, educational etc

Dav010

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've been taking the pain for the last ten years my friend, while everyone else has been partying. So let's start talking about fixing that pain with restoring my salary to the contracted level before we start talking about anything further.

Increments aren't some kind of optional nicety. They are contractual obligations, subject to individual performance.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I suspect the hundreds of thousands of people who lost jobs at various times during that 10 yrs, or had to emigrate to find work would argue their pain was greater.

Again this term “restoring”, does anyone else who suffered a pay cut over the past 10 years describe pay increases as “restoring” their rate of pay? I think that is particular to PSs.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They did strike actually - I was on the picket line. You might want to ease back on talking about stuff that you know little about.

Yeah they really put lots of effort in pulling the ladder up after yourselfs on the new entrants. The current 2 tier system is because of your unions they could of stayed out on strike if they wanted and I believe you boyos were at the picket line for your own pocket not anyone elses.

fliball123

Deleted User wrote: »

Fliball you will give yourself an ulcer with all this worrying. You have a good job in IT why not relax and enjoy it. You were the same in 2010 getting worked into a lather about the public finances. What’s it all about??

No I wont relax I have two young kids and they will be forced to pay ridiculously high taxes (and they are already high) in this country for decisions already made from 2000 onwards by coward governments and 2021 there needs to be a look at what we spend as a country.

Wanderer78

fliball123 wrote:

I find it hard to take that you in one hand say we need to get over the deficit so the borrowing (so 17billion a year to keep the lights on 18 billion after payrises this year, 20 billion after payrises in 2022) and then on the other hand say we became overly reliant on private sector money supply and credit? can you not see the contradiction in this?

08 was caused by trying to run our economy on credit, it obviously failed, if we do the same again, it will more than likely fail again. Debt is the money supply, this process is called monotisation of debt, this is created by both the private sector (credit), and the state(deficit), so take your pick, I.e. A credit fueled economy or......

fliball123

Wanderer78 wrote: »

08 was caused by trying to run our economy on credit, it obviously failed, if we do the same again, it will more than likely fail again. Debt is the money supply, this process is called monotisation of debt, this is created by both the private sector (credit), and the state(deficit), so take your pick, I.e. A credit fueled economy or......

So in 08 the spend side had nothing to do with it. The ballooning of our ps pay and pensions and welfare more than doubling in the 6/7 years prior to the crash had absolutely no hand act or part to play in the crash. REALLY. Go do a bit of digging and check out what our deficit was prior to 2000. The problem is currnently we are further down the road of the credit economy your talking about more so now than we were in 08 and its been built on the corporation tax take and this will be taking a big loss in the next few years with the new corporation tax regimes that the OCED are putting in place. So guess what happened when the government did not make the decisions to cut after the crash in 08..The troika came in and told us your taking the p1ss with your spend start cutting or you will not be borrowing from us again. Judging by the levels of ignorance and flat out head in the sand stuff on here it will probably take them coming in again.

Wanderer78

fliball123 wrote:

So in 08 the spend side had nothing to do with it. The ballooning of our ps pay and pensions and welfare more than doubling in the 6/7 years prior to the crash had absolutely no hand act or part to play in the crash. REALLY. The problem is we are further down the road of the credit economy your talking about more so now than we were in in 08 and guess what happened when the government did not make the decisions to cut after the crash..The troika came in and told us your taking the p1ss with your spend start cutting or you will not be borrowing from us again. Judging by the levels of ignorance and flat out head in the sand stuff on here it will probably take them coming in again.

Yes the 08 crash had little or nothing to do with public debt, as the majority of the debt was in fact created by private sector financial institutions, I.e. Banks, in the form of credit, hence the term 'credit crisis'. When economies became unable to maintain the rate of growth of this private debt, which was primarily being used to fuel credit fueled building booms, including our own, the whole thing tanked, requiring central banks to step in and bail them out, it was then 'decided' the best thing to do was lump some of this debt onto public balance sheets. This is all starting to fail now, as we slowly default back to the same game!

Dav010

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Yes the 08 crash had little or nothing to do with public debt, as the majority of the debt was in fact created by private sector financial institutions, I.e. Banks, in the form of credit, hence the term 'credit crisis'. When economies became unable to maintain the rate of growth of this private debt, which was primarily being used to fuel credit fueled building booms, including our own, the whole thing tanked, requiring central banks to step in and bail them out, it was then 'decided' the best thing to do was lump some of this debt onto public balance sheets. This is all starting to fail now, as we slowly default back to the same game!

That is a rather simplistic, and selective view of the origins and fault for the collapse of our economy. Wage inflation across the board played a part and it is naive to suggest that all private and no public service employees took out loans to buy property they could not afford at inflated prices. I’m sure there are many PSs who own houses today worth less then they paid for them prior to the last recession, and have struggled to make repayments since obtaining that credit.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

so comparing the pay gap is Apples and Oranges...

Congratulations, you got there eventually, though it took a while.

fliball123 wrote: »

Really?? School me how do we get out of the mess we are in and allow pay rises for the PS ..school me please?

You said it yourself, cut all other spending, maintain contractual commitments to public servants, and work towards restoration of last set of cuts.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Hows about the pay cut you got was for the robbery of the tax payer for the benchmarking process and you didnt get a cut at all

I entered into a contract, with a pay scale as part of that contract. That contract was breached unilaterally by my employer.

You, as a citizen, may disagree with the benchmarking process, but that doesn't give the government the right to breach the terms of their contract with me.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Yeah they really put lots of effort in pulling the ladder up after yourselfs on the new entrants. The current 2 tier system is because of your unions they could of stayed out on strike if they wanted and I believe you boyos were at the picket line for your own pocket not anyone elses.

Sorry, I'm confused now - are you saying that you support the idea of public sector staff striking?

Because when they did strike, you were calling for illegal strike breaking activities, so you really need to make your mind up. You can't have it both ways.

Wanderer78

Dav010 wrote:

That is a rather simplistic, and selective view of the origins and fault for the collapse of our economy. Wage inflation across the board played a part and it is naive to suggest that all private and no public service employees took out loans to buy property they could not afford at inflated prices. I’m sure there are many PSs who own houses today worth less then they paid for them prior to the last recession.

Oh yeah, apologies, another element to all of this, and a critical one, wage inflation throughout this whole era, commonly called the neoliberal era, has remained low for most, stagnant for some, particularly in the private sector. precariousness of employment has also increased, both in the public and private sectors, in particular in the private sector, so, go us!

Dav010

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I entered into a contract, with a pay scale as part of that contract. That contract was breached unilaterally by my employer.

You, as a citizen, may disagree with the benchmarking process, but that doesn't give the government the right to breach the terms of their contract with me.

It’s a legal requirement for all employees have a contract of employment which sets out rate of pay, I suspect pay reductions in the private sector are rarely agreed to by the employee either. They are usually imposed due to changes in business circumstances, if they aren’t accepted, redundancies usually follow, something which isn’t usual in the public sector.

fliball123

Dav010 wrote: »

That is a rather simplistic, and selective view of the origins and fault for the collapse of our economy. Wage inflation across the board played a part and it is naive to suggest that all private and no public service employees took out loans to buy property they could not afford at inflated prices. I’m sure there are many PSs who own houses today worth less then they paid for them prior to the last recession.

It is simplistic to the point. if you cant afford it you shouldnt buy it.. if you get it on credit make sure you can pay it back and dont go looking for others to pay your way.. also if your not paying the credit back on time dont come looking for more credit....

At some stage the people we lend from will look at what we spend even if the clowns in government refuse to as cuts to the PS will mean a cut to their wage as well.

OK so ask the question why as a country did we need credit ?? If you cant see that our spiraling costs from 2000 to 2007 were the main reason for needing the credit that lead to the crisis in 08 then there is no talking to you. Also dont go confusing national debt with personal levels of debt. They are 2 different things if someone borrowed more than they could afford for a house back pre 08 thats on them they should not of bought a house for that price no one put a gun to their head and said buy. Same goes with our government they should not of ballooned public sector pay and pensions and welfare to a rate we could not afford based on the taxation rates we were taking in and basing it on a tax system that relied heavily on a speculative property market.

So what has happened to public and private sector wage in the mean time during the bench marking process its obvious private sector wage was ahead of the public sector wage otherwise the exercise would not of happened. Now public sector are 33% ahead of the private sector that is some swing in 20 years (give or take a year or 2)

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Sorry, I'm confused now - are you saying that you support the idea of public sector staff striking?

Because when they did strike, you were calling for illegal strike breaking activities, so you really need to make your mind up. You can't have it both ways.

What are you on about? Taking one post back in 2011 and not looking at all my posts from then thank god your not selective?? You boys were threatening strikes back then and I said go ahead and stop pay and we would save a fortune.

Dav010

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Oh yeah, apologies, another element to all of this, and a critical one, wage inflation throughout this whole era, commonly called the neoliberal era, has remained low for most, stagnant for some, particularly in the private sector. precariousness of employment has also increased, both in the public and private sectors, in particular in the private sector, so, go us!

Has “precariousness of employment” increased in the Public Sector?

tastyt

If your employer is broke you don’t go looking for or getting pay increases, you are thankful that you have a secure job while people all around you worry if it’s their employer that announce they are shutting up shop tomorrow.

It’s not rocket science

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Congratulations, you got there eventually, though it took a while.


You said it yourself, cut all other spending, maintain contractual commitments to public servants, and work towards restoration of last set of cuts.

So where do we find in the rest of the billions for the yearly deficit from after we do this? Do you think our lenders will continue lending when we are paying so much for ps pay pensions and welfare rates?

Your thinking in simple terms is like asking a bank to allow you some leeway with paying your mortgage while your using your mortgage money and other income money to buy a ferrari on a yearly basis with it. It wont take long for your bank to recognize this and tell you where to go

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I entered into a contract, with a pay scale as part of that contract. That contract was breached unilaterally by my employer.

You, as a citizen, may disagree with the benchmarking process, but that doesn't give the government the right to breach the terms of their contract with me.

Did your contract include any caveats about your employer being broke and borrowing billions a year to pay you.. I bet the 3000 private sector companies that hit the wall in the last year could of done with a bit of the public sector magic money tree feck redundancies payrises for all

BonnieSituation

EddieN75 wrote: »

Cut 10% of non essential public sector workers and pay freeze the rest.

Essential would be medical, law enforcement, educational etc

And what do we do with those 10%? Do they get redundancy? What about the dole? And they may have mortgages or rent to pay, so we'll have to make sure that's okay surely, or should we lock them out on the street or repossess their homes?

Do you pick them out of a hat?

What depts are bloated?

Are their specific skills like diplomats, trade negotiators, or IT that would be safe?

So many questions... So little time.

nolivesmatter

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I entered into a contract, with a pay scale as part of that contract. That contract was breached unilaterally by my employer.

You, as a citizen, may disagree with the benchmarking process, but that doesn't give the government the right to breach the terms of their contract with me.

Maybe you're right. But if your contract guarantees pay increases no matter what the financial circumstances are then the terms of these contracts need to be updated for future employees.

AndrewJRenko

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Oh yeah, apologies, another element to all of this, and a critical one, wage inflation throughout this whole era, commonly called the neoliberal era, has remained low for most, stagnant for some, particularly in the private sector. precariousness of employment has also increased, both in the public and private sectors, in particular in the private sector, so, go us!

Looks like fairly solid growth in average wages over the past five years, while public sector pay scales have been fixed for 15 years, and had a built-in cut of 5%-8% via the PRD/ASC.

Dav010 wrote: »

It’s a legal requirement for all employees have a contract of employment which sets out rate of pay, I suspect pay reductions in the private sector are rarely agreed to by the employee either. They are usually imposed due to changes in business circumstances, if they aren’t accepted, redundancies usually follow, something which isn’t usual in the public sector.

Yes, I'm aware of how things work. None of which changes anythings. Public sector pay doesn't rise or fall in solidarity with private sector pay. We didn't get raises to match the growth of the past five years, so don't think you can come looking for further cuts, on top of the 2010 cuts that still haven't been restored.

Dav010 wrote: »

Has “precariousness of employment” increased in the Public Sector?

Yes - lots of posts have been outsourced - hospital cleaners, reception staff and more.

AndrewJRenko

fliball123 wrote: »

Did your contract include any caveats about your employer being broke and borrowing billions a year to pay you.. I bet the 3000 private sector companies that hit the wall in the last year could of done with a bit of the public sector magic money tree feck redundancies payrises for all

No, no such caveats were in place. So you can go find other expenditure to cut. Public sector salaries are a modest part of overall expenditure.

fliball123 wrote: »

So where do we find in the rest of the billions for the yearly deficit from after we do this? Do you think our lenders will continue lending when we are paying so much for ps pay pensions and welfare rates?

Your thinking in simple terms is like asking a bank to allow you some leeway with paying your mortgage while your using your mortgage money and other income money to buy a ferrari on a yearly basis with it. It wont take long for your bank to recognize this and tell you where to go

Except meeting contractual commitments to mostly low-paid isn't 'buying a Ferrari'. It is meeting contractual commitments to mostly low-paid staff.

fliball123 wrote: »

What are you on about? Taking one post back in 2011 and not looking at all my posts from then thank god your not selective?? You boys were threatening strikes back then and I said go ahead and stop pay and we would save a fortune.

I'm on about your two-faced approach of attacking public sector staff when they do strike, and then attacking them for not striking enough.

fliball123

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No, no such caveats were in place. So you can go find other expenditure to cut. Public sector salaries are a modest part of overall expenditure.


Except meeting contractual commitments to mostly low-paid isn't 'buying a Ferrari'. It is meeting contractual commitments to mostly low-paid staff.


I'm on about your two-faced approach of attacking public sector staff when they do strike, and then attacking them for not striking enough.

The quote in 2011 was said tongue in cheek I guess that went over your head and anyone who has time to look back at the back and forth there would of seen that.

Modest will you give over it was just under 19 Billion in 2019 so thats before the 3 new payrises in the next 2 years. Its hardly modest not to mention ps pensions which is a financial ticking time bomb as well.. Its not modest at all compared to the private sector wage and pension levels or when comparing with other OCED countries or when comparing the gap in private and public sector in other countries. Low paid I have put that myth to bed with the 33% higher than the private sector. You keep saying things with absolutely zero proof of it. Do we just take your word on it?

https://whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/other/2021/

There you go for all to see where the money is spent just check out the different levels of spend in the public sector within here you can drill down and how much its gone up by in the last 5 years. To say wage in the PS has been stagnant is bullsh1t even during the recession from 08 there were increments going on and in the real world an increment is a payrise as you get paid more.

We have added over 20 Billion of spend in the last 5 years can we continue with this level of spending?

Treppen

fliball123 wrote: »

Its a well known fact that public service employees are paid higher then the private sector employees in this country. There are not many other countries in the world where this is the case. Might enlighten a few PS heads thinking they are not paid enough

https://isme.ie/isme-gives-a-qualified-welcome-to-the-government-decision-to-increase-public-sector-pay/

Oh ya sure it's well know that they're paid more, and so they should be, on average people in the public sector have higher qualifications.

So saying that your local dentist is comparable to a local Barber is just nuts. Unless you're talking about Cuba!

Are you taking about Cuba?

fliball123

Treppen wrote: »

Oh ya sure it's well know that they're paid more, and so they should be, on average people in the public sector have higher qualifications.

So saying that your local dentist is comparable to a local Barber is just nuts. Unless you're talking about Cuba!

Are you taking about Cuba?

So why is the private sector in the UK paid .3% more than the public sector there and here the public sector is paid 33% more than the private sector here? You dont have to go as far as Cuba to compare how about you look at our nearest neighbor. I am sure the public sector in the UK has higher qualifications on average as well.

https://isme.ie/isme-gives-a-qualified-welcome-to-the-government-decision-to-increase-public-sector-pay/

Yet our unions and politicians pulled off this very comparison twice between public and private sector wage in the early naughties with bench marking and upped public sector pay twice due to the result showing public sector was behind private sector pay at the time.

Geuze

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What depts are bloated?

The head of HR section in the HSE stated that they have 2,000 staff, and need 800.

am_zarathustra

Lots of departments do have bloat but there is chronic understaffing of teachers, nurses and doctors in urban areas. Not keeping wages even in line with inflation is a massive issue. We are 5 years away from the population peak in secondary and the majority of urban schools cant appropriately fill their allocation in dublin or the greater dublin area due to lack of MFL or STEM teachers. Hospitals are getting zero candidates for jobs both for nurses and doctors.

The public sector pay is also a response to the cost of living and our disfunctional housing system. A more hosilstic view than "freeze wages" would be needed with more nuance around cost of living and the factors that effect it

fliball123

fliball123 wrote: »

No I wont relax I have two young kids and they will be forced to pay ridiculously high taxes (and they are already high) in this country for decisions already made from 2000 onwards by coward governments and 2021 there needs to be a look at what we spend as a country.

So im paying for your childrens allowance?

I think ill spend the next fortnight barking at you about the rights that should give me

Wanderer78

fliball123 wrote:

It is simplistic to the point. if you cant afford it you shouldnt buy it.. if you get it on credit make sure you can pay it back and dont go looking for others to pay your way.. also if your not paying the credit back on time dont come looking for more credit....

So people who want to build some element of housing security into their lives, maybe start a family etc, should do what exactly? It's always important to remember, 'behind every bad borrower, there's a bad lender', yes that's those banks again!

Dav010 wrote:

Has “precariousness of employment†increased in the Public Sector?

As discussed

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Looks like fairly solid growth in average wages over the past five years, while public sector pay scales have been fixed for 15 years, and had a built-in cut of 5%-8% via the PRD/ASC.

Compare wage inflation to house price inflation to see the full picture! Another critical element of this era has been the growing division between both of these, add in all the other stuff discussed, and we have a problem!