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Public service pay cut?

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    #2912
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    EddieN75 wrote: »
    Cut 10% of non essential public sector workers and pay freeze the rest.

    Essential would be medical, law enforcement, educational etc

    How do you cut 10% ???

    There is already a large knowledge gap developing in some departments due to retirements.

    If the govt and people want to save money

    Stop funding NGOs
    Stop giving Africans in particular a free ride.


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    #2913
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Yes - lots of posts have been outsourced - hospital cleaners, reception staff and more.

    That is interesting, how many Public Servants have lost their jobs as a result of out sourcing?


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    #2914
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Dav010 wrote:
    That is interesting, how many Public Servants have lost their jobs as a result of out sourcing?

    Hard to know, but I'd imagine less public sector jobs were created because of it, nothing like paying someone less, to get the same job done, or is that's what's happening?


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    #2915
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Hard to know, but I'd imagine less public sector jobs were created because of it, nothing like paying someone less, to get the same job done, or is that's what's happening?

    Not the same thing, you referenced the precariousness of PS employment, not reduction in new hires. How many Public Servants do you know of, are in danger of losing their jobs?


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    #2916
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    fliball123 wrote: »
    So why is the private sector in the UK paid .3% more than the public sector there and here the public sector is paid 33% more than the private sector here? You dont have to go as far as Cuba to compare how about you look at our nearest neighbor. I am sure the public sector in the UK has higher qualifications on average as well.

    https://isme.ie/isme-gives-a-qualified-welcome-to-the-government-decision-to-increase-public-sector-pay/

    Yet our unions and politicians pulled off this very comparison twice between public and private sector wage in the early naughties with bench marking and upped public sector pay twice due to the result showing public sector was behind private sector pay at the time.

    Mod

    Ok you can take a week off from the thread thanks. If you are going to copy and paste the same points over and over and not take on board responses, you are not adding to the thread. Any issue, please PM me.


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    #2917
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Not the same thing, you referenced the precariousness of PS employment, not reduction in new hires. How many Public Servants do you know of, are in danger of losing their jobs?

    precariousness of employment has occurred in both the public and private sectors, more so in the private sector, id imagine many younger generations of public sector workers, recently employed, would be of much more precariousness than older generations, with temporary contracts etc, this is evident in the educational sectors, and probably other public sectors, and yes, i know of such people


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    #2918
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    precariousness of employment has occurred in both the public and private sectors, more so in the private sector, id imagine many younger generations of public sector workers, recently employed, would be of much more precariousness than older generations, with temporary contracts etc, this is evident in the educational sectors, and probably other public sectors, and yes, i know of such people

    If you are on a temporary contract, the terms are set out from the start, that is not an example of precariousness of employment, only that your contract is considered determined at its end.

    So, you stated that there was precariousness in Public Sector employment, how many PSs are in danger of losing their jobs?


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    #2919
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Dav010 wrote: »
    If you are on a temporary contract, the terms are set out from the start, that is not an example of precariousness of employment, only that your contract is considered determined at its end.

    So, you stated that there was precariousness in Public Sector employment, how many PSs are in danger of losing their jobs?

    jebus, give me strength! there has been an increase in precarious employment in both the public and private sectors, in both sectors, this is also presenting itself by the increase in temporary contracts, hence the use of the term 'precarious employment', comprenda? many younger public sector workers have been recently employed under such conditions, which would have been less so in the past, older generations wouldnt have experienced as much temporary employment in such situations, hence the use of this term


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    #2920
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    fliball123 wrote: »
    No I more than cover that with the amount of income tax my wife and I pay. So just to be clear you pay zero towards my pay or any benefits I get as benefits I receive < income tax my wife and I pay.

    most, if not all citizens pay some form of taxation, including the unemployed


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    #2921
    EddieN75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 467 ✭✭EddieN75


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    most, if not all citizens pay some form of taxation, including the unemployed

    What percentage of working citizens pay income tax. Ie Paye, prsi, USC?


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    #2922
    fliball123
    Registered Users Posts: 7,450 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    most, if not all citizens pay some form of taxation, including the unemployed

    Most likely they will all pay VAT but do you think there would be a VAT revenue stream coming into this country if there was no income tax paid?


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    #2923
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    EddieN75 wrote: »
    What percentage of working citizens pay income tax. Ie Paye, prsi, USC?

    yes i will completely agree, under this modern political and economic ideology, taxation has ultimately fallen on the working classes, as taxation has been reduced, even removed in some cases, from the more wealthier elements of society, the premise used has been, if we do so, these wealthier elements will produce more employment, and this increase in economic activity will cause wealth to 'trickle down'. this is largely untrue, what has in fact trickled down is the debts that were created by such activities, and presents itself as private debt, but also public debt to some degree, but largely private debt, i.e. we were conned, and we have a refusal to accept these facts, even when hard data is presented.
    fliball123 wrote: »
    Most likely they will all pay VAT but do you think there would be a VAT revenue stream coming into this country if there was no income tax paid?

    no, both forms of taxation are critical in running our economy


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    #2924
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    jebus, give me strength! there has been an increase in precarious employment in both the public and private sectors, in both sectors, this is also presenting itself by the increase in temporary contracts, hence the use of the term 'precarious employment', comprenda? many younger public sector workers have been recently employed under such conditions, which would have been less so in the past, older generations wouldnt have experienced as much temporary employment in such situations, hence the use of this term

    If you are offered a temporary contract and you accept, that is not an example of your job being in danger. You know from the outset that it is temporary. If I were you, I’d be asking for understanding instead of strength.


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    #2925
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Dav010 wrote: »
    If you are offered a temporary contract and you accept, that is not an example of your job being in danger. You know from the outset that it is temporary. If I were you, I’d be asking for understanding instead of strength.

    you re projecting now, if one trains to be in such employment, out of interest, drive, passion etc etc, and only temp contracts are available, you will take it, this is fairly normal human behavior. society in fact needs these people doing what they do, they teach and guide your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, i.e. they are just as critical as you are in the bigger picture of life


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    #2926
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,515 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    am_zarathustra wrote: »
    Lots of departments do have bloat but there is chronic understaffing of teachers, nurses and doctors in urban areas. Not keeping wages even in line with inflation is a massive issue. We are 5 years away from the population peak in secondary and the majority of urban schools cant appropriately fill their allocation in dublin or the greater dublin area due to lack of MFL or STEM teachers. Hospitals are getting zero candidates for jobs both for nurses and doctors.

    The public sector pay is also a response to the cost of living and our disfunctional housing system. A more hosilstic view than "freeze wages" would be needed with more nuance around cost of living and the factors that effect it


    Yes, the problem is not that PS pay is too low, the problem is rents and house prices in cities are too high.


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    #2927
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Geuze wrote: »
    Yes, the problem is not that PS pay is too low, the problem is rents and house prices in cities are too high.

    yup, this is exactly where we re at, and it looks like it aint gonna be resolved anytime soon, so.........


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    #2928
    Necro
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 51,570 Mod ✭✭✭✭Necro


    fliball123 wrote: »
    Most likely they will all pay VAT but do you think there would be a VAT revenue stream coming into this country if there was no income tax paid?

    Are you actually kidding me? I gave you the benefit of the doubt the first time around and you come straight back to the thread breaching your threadban AGAIN? Week forum ban applied


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    #2929
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    you re projecting now, if one trains to be in such employment, out of interest, drive, passion etc etc, and only temp contracts are available, you will take it, this is fairly normal human behavior. society in fact needs these people doing what they do, they teach and guide your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews, i.e. they are just as critical as you are in the bigger picture of life

    Again, this is not the precariousness of employment in the PS, it is wanting the job you trained for.

    I’ll ask you for the last time, how many Public servants are in danger of losing their jobs? People on temporary contracts know that the job is temporary, the title is the giveaway, that is not the same as losing their jobs unexpectedly due to cut backs or closure.


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    #2930
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Are the most fervent anti-PS zealots in here contacting their local representatives or DPER?

    The amount of evidence they purport to show wrt the wastage in the PS is such that it seems they would be better placed to contact the powers that be rather than ranting repetitively on a message board.

    I'm sure someone will have your ear.


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    #2931
    EddieN75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 467 ✭✭EddieN75


    Does anyone have paid subscription to Irish times? There is a story about the new to be established tax and welfare reform commission. New taxes and charges that will affect us all . Private and public.
    Please post if so.

    Thanks


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    #2932
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Are the most fervent anti-PS zealots in here contacting their local representatives or DPER?

    The amount of evidence they purport to show wrt the wastage in the PS is such that it seems they would be better placed to contact the powers that be rather than ranting repetitively on a message board.

    I'm sure someone will have your ear.

    I’m sure our local TDs are well informed and have experience of the shortcomings in the PS.


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    #2933
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    jebus, give me strength! there has been an increase in precarious employment in both the public and private sectors, in both sectors, this is also presenting itself by the increase in temporary contracts, hence the use of the term 'precarious employment', comprenda? many younger public sector workers have been recently employed under such conditions, which would have been less so in the past, older generations wouldnt have experienced as much temporary employment in such situations, hence the use of this term
    Dav010 wrote: »
    Again, this is not the precariousness of employment in the PS, it is wanting the job you trained for.

    I’ll ask you for the last time, how many Public servants are in danger of losing their jobs? People on temporary contracts know that the job is temporary, the title is the giveaway, that is not the same as losing their jobs unexpectedly due to cut backs or closure.

    ....we seem to be going around in circles here!

    there clearly has been an attack on the public sector and the state throughout this era, this is now well written about by many well respected commentators, so it seems like the issue is on your side!


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    #2934
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    ....we seem to be going around in circles here!

    there clearly has been an attack on the public sector and the state throughout this era, this is now well written about by many well respected commentators, so it seems like the issue is on your side!

    I’m not sure I would class commentary on the PS as attacks, more likely to be widely held opinions. The public are **** sick of the whinging from a section of the population who enjoy the greatest degree of job security. It really is disingenuous to equate the plight and concerns of hundreds of thousands of people who have lost jobs in the with the “precariousness of employment” in the PS.


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    #2935
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I’m not sure I would class commentary on the PS as attacks, more likely to be widely held opinions. The public are **** sick of the whinging from a section of the population who enjoy the greatest degree of job security. It really is disingenuous to equate the plight and concerns of hundreds of thousands of people who have lost jobs in the with the “precariousness of employment” in the PS.

    no idea what you re talking about now, as ive mentioned before, the majority of precarious employment is indeed in the private sector. so those who are employed in the public sector on precarious contracts, are wingers?


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    #2936
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    no idea what you re talking about now, as ive mentioned before, the majority of precarious employment is indeed in the private sector. so those who are employed in the public sector on precarious contracts, are wingers?

    Not wingers, whingers, not confined to those on temporary contracts, it seems to be a talent widely shared.


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    #2937
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Not wingers, whingers, not confined to those on temporary contracts, it seems to be a talent widely shared.

    apologies, im dyslexic, we both meant the same thing, maybe you have some prejudice views that required to be worked on


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    #2938
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,586 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    apologies, im dyslexic, we both meant the same thing, maybe you have some prejudice views that required to be worked on

    Of course, it must be prejudice, why not go the full hog and accuse those who criticise PSs of discrimination. Persecution complex?


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    #2939
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I’m sure our local TDs are well informed and have experience of the shortcomings in the PS.

    You would think?

    Then again, you self-appointed experts are making serious headway on here.


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    #2940
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Of course, it must be prejudice, why not go the full hog and accuse those who criticise PSs of discrimination. Persecution complex?

    not at all, its clearly obvious theres serious issues in the public sector, serious dysfunctions, inefficiencies, wastes etc etc etc, but theres also serious dysfunctions occurring in the private sector to. a critical part during this era has been to undermine the public sector in as many ways as possible, and one of the main methods has been to demonise it, and it has worked


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    #2941
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,117 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I’m not sure I would class commentary on the PS as attacks, more likely to be widely held opinions. The public are **** sick of the whinging from a section of the population who enjoy the greatest degree of job security. It really is disingenuous to equate the plight and concerns of hundreds of thousands of people who have lost jobs in the with the “precariousness of employment” in the PS.

    You're not a spokesperson for 'the public'. Try speaking for yourself.

    Precariousness is not limited to losing your job.
    fliball123 wrote: »
    No I more than cover that with the amount of income tax my wife and I pay. So just to be clear you pay zero towards my pay or any benefits I get as benefits I receive < income tax my wife and I pay.

    Interesting idea - what value did you put on the cost of your kid's education in working out the benefits?


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