Black Water leaking from my Grant Vortex 50/90 Boiler

davidod1

I have a leak of black water from the base of my Grant Vortex 50/90 boiler. It's just 10 years old and I am waiting on my plumber to come and check it out.

It is still working away so I would expect that the water is just being kept in the system by the expansion tank.

I would like some advice regarding the options that are likely to come down the line. Being 10 years old, I have to expect that my plumber might say that repair might not be economical, and if so I would like to know if I should replace it with exactly the same boiler or might the 90/120 model be more efficient to run? The house is a 1970s bungalow on its own site with a fair bit of insulation, but still a long way from modern standards. There are 12 X double panel radiators on the system. The old boiler could heat these to a very hot level, and quite quickly at that.

Another point that might be worth noting is that the boiler is in an outside shed, and although Grant state that it can be used a shed, they do provide a model for use in an outside location. This comes with a galvanise box casing with additional insulation. I am wondering if that might be even a bit more economical and also maybe last a bit longer due to being in a container. My previous boiler lasted for 30 years, 10 years is not great by comparison.

Any comments or advice would be very welcome. Thanks.

jimf

first off you may be jumping the gun find where your leak is and take it from there

if you do need to replace the boiler I would b looking at the whole system for leaks etc

don't oversize the boiler if you need to replace it modern he boilers are designed to work hard

outdoor boilers are for outdoor use unless your existing boiler is a long distance from the house id stick with what you have boilers as a rule don't leak from the outside in

but as stated earlier hopefully you don't need to replace your existing boiler but if you do a bit of further investigation is required

do your boiler currently have an autofill valve fitted

davidod1

jimf wrote: »

first off you may be jumping the gun find where your leak is and take it from there
if you do need to replace the boiler I would b looking at the whole system for leaks etc
don't oversize the boiler if you need to replace it modern he boilers are designed to work hard
outdoor boilers are for outdoor use unless your existing boiler is a long distance from the house id stick with what you have boilers as a rule don't leak from the outside in
but as stated earlier hopefully you don't need to replace your existing boiler but if you do a bit of further investigation is required
do your boiler currently have an autofill valve fitted

Several very helpful elements in that post - thank you.

I don't know if there is an autofill valve fitted I'm afraid. That is something I'll have to check with the plumber; when he comes. He only lives 200 meters up the road.

Wearb

If you need more advice, post a few pics of the hot press and boiler.

davidod1

Wearb wrote: »

If you need more advice, post a few pics of the hot press and boiler.

Will do, offer much appreciated. Dave

davidod1

So, while waiting for a response from Grant Engineering to the current assessment that the water leak is from the heat exchanger unit in the boiler, I am left with very few if any, options other than to consider replacing the gun barrel pipework that is used throughout the house with the modern insulated piping. I dread to think of what the cost might be of ripping up the timber flooring throughout the house, let alone replacing the boiler and the piping. I don't expect there is there is any alternative to this.

As suggested by JimF in a PM, my plumber is of the belief that there has been a slow ingestion fresh water ongoing and that that is most likely as a result of leaking gun barrel piping. This can only be sorted by replacing all the pipework in the house.

If I have to take this on, I am wondering what would be the likelihood of tackling the serious draft problem that emanates from under the flooring in this 1970s bungalow. Ideally, while the opportunity exists, I would like to get expanded polystyrene pushed into all the outer surfaces of the house and any other areas that might help reduce the drafts.

Further comments would be much appreciated.

Wearb

davidod1 wrote: »

So, while waiting for a response from Grant Engineering to the current assessment that the water leak is from the heat exchanger unit in the boiler, I am left with very few if any, options other than to consider replacing the gun barrel pipework that is used throughout the house with the modern insulated piping. I dread to think of what the cost might be of ripping up the timber flooring throughout the house, let alone replacing the boiler and the piping. I don't expect there is there is any alternative to this.

As suggested by JimF in a PM, my plumber is of the belief that there has been a slow ingestion fresh water ongoing and that that is most likely as a result of leaking gun barrel piping. This can only be sorted by replacing all the pipework in the house.

If I have to take this on, I am wondering what would be the likelihood of tackling the serious draft problem that emanates from under the flooring in this 1970s bungalow. Ideally, while the opportunity exists, I would like to get expanded polystyrene pushed into all the outer surfaces of the house and any other areas that might help reduce the drafts.

Further comments would be much appreciated.

Has the boiler been stripped down to verify this?

jimf

feck it that's bad news david

but at least you have found the cause of your boiler leaking you must have an autofill valve somewhere compensating for the water loss

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

feck it that's bad news david

but at least you have found the cause of your boiler leaking you must have an autofill valve somewhere compensating for the water loss

He mentioned expansion tank in first post Jim. :pac::pac::pac:

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

He mentioned expansion tank in first post Jim. :pac::pac::pac:

guess whos off to specsavers when they open :o:o:o

old age phase 2 kicking in

up iimerick

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

guess whos off to specsavers when they open :o:o:o

old age phase 2 kicking in

up iimerick

We are all getting dilapidated Jim. I saw it, but forgot it and had to scroll back up to check :rolleyes:

davidod1

Wearb wrote: »

Has the boiler been stripped down to verify this?

No. Not yet, examined from all possible angles but not stripped. It's planned to do that on Monday following a return of of call from Grant Engineering.

So there is still a possibility that it may not be the heat exchanger, but the gun barrel piping is fifty years old so it's on borrowed time anyway.

davidod1

jimf wrote: »

feck it that's bad news david

but at least you have found the cause of your boiler leaking you must have an autofill valve somewhere compensating for the water loss

There is an expansion tank in the attack with a ballcock that keeps it topped up. I assume that is doing the job of an autofill valve.

Wearb

davidod1 wrote: »

No. Not yet, examined from all possible angles but not stripped. It's planned to do that on Monday following a return of of call from Grant Engineering.

So there is still a possibility that it may not be the heat exchanger, but the gun barrel piping is fifty years old so it's on borrowed time anyway.

Sadly it looks like the boiler is rusted, time will tell for sure.


I've seen gun-barrel last much longer when inhibitor is added at the beginning and especially no fresh water introduced.



Have you verified a system leak?



btw, do you know what size nozzle was in it and the burner pump pressure? This info will be on your annual service sheet.

jimf

davidod1 wrote: »

There is an expansion tank in the attack with a ballcock that keeps it topped up. I assume that is doing the job of an autofill valve.

exactly david

davidod1

Wearb wrote: »

Have you verified a system leak?

btw, do you know what size nozzle was in it and the burner pump pressure? This info will be on your annual service sheet.

No idea what nozzle is in it or the burner pressure I'm affraid. It's not recorded on any paperwork that I have.

No proof of a leak in the house other than the occasional woodlice walking around. No system pressure test done yet.

Wearb

davidod1 wrote: »

No idea what nozzle is in it or the burner pressure I'm affraid. It's not recorded on any paperwork that I have.

No proof of a leak in the house other than the occasional woodlice walking around. No system pressure test done yet.

You should insist on such information from each service and also a printout of the combustion check.



Depending on the cause of the boiler leak, it might be worth repairing. I brought one to a local shop a few years ago. The welder gave it a couple of good whacks with a hammer near the hole to test it's strength. He deemed it good enough and burned a few spots of weld into it and it's still going.



Ask your plumber about that option and also perhaps find the leak and repair that. He might be able to unscrew a joiner on the GB pipe to inspect its condition.



What really has me baffled it that you made no mention of a problem with leaking or sludged up radiators. That would often show up before the boiler would go from fresh water introduction.

davidod1

Wearb wrote: »

What really has me baffled it that you made no mention of a problem with leaking or sludged up radiators. That would often show up before the boiler would go from fresh water introduction.

I haven't had any issues with clogged up radiators. All the radiators heat up to a point that they are very hot to put a hand on. No radiators losing water either.

I forgot to mention that there is a magnetic filter on the line next to the boiler as well.

jimf

usually you see rads leaking first but not always I presume

I wonder was the condensate piped away from the boiler properly

davidod1

jimf wrote: »

I wonder was the condensate piped away from the boiler properly

I think so. It goes outside to a drain, a pipe distance of about 2 meters.

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

usually you see rads leaking first but not always I presume

I'm sure it can also happen the other way around too.

I wonder was the condensate piped away from the boiler properly

Good thought Jim. "Radiators hot and heating quickly" Doesn't have the normal symptoms of a system with fresh water being constantly introduced.



OP How old are the rads?

davidod1

Wearb wrote: »

OP How old are the rads?

The rads are the same as the GB just short of 50 years old.

Wearb

davidod1 wrote: »

The rads are the same as the GB just short of 50 years old.

Make sure Grant has this information.
Are they regular steel rads?


Perhaps a pic of the whole boiler might help here also.

davidod1

Regular steel rads. See attached pics.

jimf

don't like the look of the condensate drain set up

maybe the photo but seems like its falling back towards boiler

how often was boiler serviced

anybody comment on above

davidod1

Apart from a couple of times when it stretched to 18 months, otherwise it was done during the early/middle summer each year.

Wearb

davidod1 wrote: »

Apart from a couple of times when it stretched to 18 months, otherwise it was done during the early/middle summer each year.

Except (maybe) for that condensate pipe, it generally looks like a good enough install. Flexy looks like it hasn't gotten the attention it needed, but that could be just recently from the leaking dirty water.



OP Was the mag filter part of the original install?

davidod1

Attached: Better pic of the condnsate drain.

The Mag Filter was part of the original install.

Wearb

davidod1 wrote: »

Attached: Better pic of the condnsate drain.

The Mag Filter was part of the original install.

If that pic is horizontal and that pipe is falling back to the boiler, it could be your problem. Strip down will reveal.

jimf

Wearb wrote: »

If that pic is horizontal and that pipe is falling back to the boiler, it could be your problem. Strip down will reveal.

agree way too high

jimf

grant supply a bracket for fitting that drain and the 2 holes for mounting it at approx. midway on that mag

so it gives an idea of where that drain should be fitted

Wearb

jimf wrote: »

grant supply a bracket for fitting that drain and the 2 holes for mounting it at approx. midway on that mag

so it gives an idea of where that drain should be fitted

Well spotted Jim.

davidod1

Looks like another successful diagnosis by the team - it must be all this working from home that's going on. No need to go on-site anymore.

Can't thank you all enough for all the contributions. Hopefully, I'll be able to leave the GB in place for a while longer. I'm certainly much better informed for getting it sorted now thanks to all the responses.
Dave

jimf

davidod1 wrote: »

Looks like another successful diagnosis by the team - it must be all this working from home that's going on. No need to go on-site anymore.

Can't thank you all enough for all the contributions. Hopefully, I'll be able to leave the GB in place for a while longer. I'm certainly much better informed for getting it sorted now thanks to all the responses.
Dave

hi dave im more than happy to help foc

but your man from wexford will probably be on to you for your name and address so he send you an invoice for his time :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

davidod1

Just an update on the eventual outcome of my boiler issue.

With help from this forum, I was in a position to positively identify the cause of the problem in the first place as being the acidic condensate flowing back into the boiler and over the years it corroded right through the steel.

A brand new boiler was required and, let's say, an arrangement was made that involved all the interested parties, whereby I had new boiler fitted at a substantially lower cost than it might otherwise have been.

BTW, the gun barrel pipework still seems to be in reasonably good condition and should last a few more years.

Thanks again to all who helped.
Dave

Wearb

davidod1 wrote: »

Just an update on the eventual outcome of my boiler issue.

With help from this forum, I was in a position to positively identify the cause of the problem in the first place as being the acidic condensate flowing back into the boiler and over the years it corroded right through the steel.

A brand new boiler was required and, let's say, an arrangement was made that involved all the interested parties, whereby I had new boiler fitted at a substantially lower cost than it might otherwise have been.

BTW, the gun barrel pipework still seems to be in reasonably good condition and should last a few more years.

Thanks again to all who helped.
Dave

Thanks for letting us know.


Well spotted Jim :pac::pac::pac:

jimf

glad all worked out for you dave