Amazon, Jeff Bezos and Billionaires, we're through the looking glass people!

completedit

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 billion over the past couple of months, PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy and many businesses hanging on by a thread if they haven't ceased to exist already.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

lawred2

completedit wrote: »

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 million PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy to a standstill.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

I'd say you're well off there

completedit

Billion sorry

LeYouth

Just ask him for a few quid. Be grand.

Dravokivich

What are you getting at? He runs a web store, that people are confident in. He provides online services, that people want. He provides cloud services, that companies want.

While there's issues with the management of the workforce. There's nothing different now, than there was 3 months ago. Other than, more people buying there, because it's a website they are confident in using.

Should we be using Wish instead?

EmmetSpiceland

It’s goddamned unAmerican not to profit from a national crisis.

Lurching

I have no issue with people making enormous amounts of money.
I'd prefer if they did give back in terms of enormous charitable donations (who needs over $100bn anyway).

What really annoys me is that they won't spend it. I know a huge proportion of Bezos money is only on paper and is tied up in investments, but a huge portion would also be cash in his account.
Sitting on this cash means (in the absence of quantitative easing) that less well off people have even less money.

Heads we win, tails you lose.

completedit

Dravokivich wrote: »

What are you getting at? He runs a web store, that people are confident in. He provides online services, that people want. He provides cloud services, that companies want.

While there's issues with the management of the workforce. There's nothing different now, than there was 3 months ago. Other than, more people buying there, because it's a website they are confident in using.

Should we be using Wish instead?

So why is it fair that American workers real wages have stagnated since the 70's and the gap between the head honchos and labor has diverged so much, even though labor productivity has soared? Yes Bezos showed great foresight and ingenuity and that has led to over 900,000 jobs and that is one of the good sides of capitalism, I benefit from Prime which is a great service. But it's just wrong when the facts are so blatant. Bezo's said he hasn't enough to spend his fortune on philanthropic efforts so will invest towards getting to space, how about an increase in the wage of some of the workers behind your success?

What's the end game in all this? Bezo's just cultivates billions and billions, buys up more and more businesses and then we have one man with supreme leverage over the population because he sells cloud services and a platform for watching shows?

mikhail

A lot of that extra Amazon money is profits that would otherwise be in the hands of Wallmart's, K-Mart's, Target's, etc. shareholders. Cry me a river for them.

This is a separate issue from worker pay, of course.

cj maxx

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s goddamned unAmerican not to profit from a national crisis.

I view it the same as when in Forrest Gump all the shrimp boats were sunk apart from his, and he became a shrimp millionaire off that.
Amazon's business has been going for years with that model.
If covid19 makes them the only player in town, well that's just good fortune for them

randd1

completedit wrote: »

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 billion over the past couple of months, PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy and many businesses hanging on by a thread if they haven't ceased to exist already.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

Americans don't like taxing the wealthy. It's too close to socialism for them.

And they just don't like socialism, even if it benefits them, or if they stupidly don't realize that quite a fair bit of their country is socialist be definition. But they don't like socialism.

So accumulate away there Jeff, it's the American thing to do.

Dravokivich

completedit wrote: »

So why is it fair that American workers real wages have stagnated since the 70's and the gap between the head honchos and labor has diverged so much, even though labor productivity has soared? Yes Bezos showed great foresight and ingenuity and that has led to over 900,000 jobs and that is one of the good sides of capitalism, I benefit from Prime which is a great service. But it's just wrong when the facts are so blatant. Bezo's said he hasn't enough to spend his fortune on philanthropic efforts so will invest towards getting to space, how about an increase in the wage of some of the workers behind your success?

What's the end game in all this? Bezo's just cultivates billions and billions, buys up more and more businesses and then we have one man with supreme leverage over the population because he sells cloud services and a platform for watching shows?

You use his services. You give out about him making money because a lot of people use his services. Especially during this recent issue of Covid-19 when there's less access to shops.

Ok, so as I asked earlier what are you getting at? Oh... so your "he's getting rich because of covid-19" fell flat because it turns out, you're contributing to it. You start to lead into social issues and wage issues that we won't have a say in. And is pretty much a systemic issue in the USA, that extends beyond any number of popular shops/websites. They've a society and market setup that requires multiple incomes into a household.

But how is that Bezo's fault? With Amazon been given more money by you. During this?

Sheeps

There's no moral argument for billionaires to exist. I'm all for allowing people to be rewarded for their effort, but there is no amount of effort one person can ever do in a single life time that justifies the channelling of wealth to such a focal point as to create a billionaire. It's just not right.

Amazon is a great and I use it frequently and I wont blame Bezos for being rich. The issue is only changable through society and legislatively.

4068ac1elhodqr

Bezos, Gates & Buffet (3 people), are equal in wealth to well over 1/2 (160million+) of all Americans (320m).

Which in turn is likely equal to a couple of billion people in the rest of the world.

neris

You do realise alot of that "wealth" is stock ownership and not cash sitting in the bank

4068ac1elhodqr

Stock ownership can be sold at any point, and turned to cash in the bank, the reason for holding 51%+ stock is control, lower dividend tax, and expectation of further gains.

One eyed Jack

completedit wrote: »

America has record high unemployment, in the meantime Bezos and Amazon have amassed an extra 30 billion over the past couple of months, PROFITING from the pandemic. The richest man in America is PROFITING off an event that has brought the economy and many businesses hanging on by a thread if they haven't ceased to exist already.

One on hand, I respect him, he has climbed the ladder and achieved peak capitalism(he is the son of a 16 year old Cuban immigrant which is pretty incredible) but on the other hand, is it morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give so little back?

I used to think the idea that it simply the market mechanism at play and hey, who can question the market and put a full stop to my questions(same logic when it came to footballers making obscene amounts) but no, the market should suit us as a society, not the elite few who have the gifts to capitalize off it.

You don’t live in America though?

As you point out yourself, he’s the son of a Cuban immigrant, who used his brain to get to where he is, that’s not peak capitalism, that’s peak knowledge economy.

It’s not the least bit morally wrong that people can amass such wealth and give back so little, they’re under no obligation to, and were you in his circumstances I’ve no doubt you’d feel the same way he does (having had the exact same experiences to get to where he is), but because you don’t have it, you imagine it’s wrong that he does.

His company aren’t profiting off any pandemic either btw, in fact what they did do was stopped sellers profiting off the pandemic by restricting sales of PPE equipment on Amazon -


‘Everybody and His Dog Is Trying to Sell Medical Equipment’

SEPT 23 1989

Is he happy though?

Muahahaha

Must say I admire Bezos, its astonishing what he has achieved. They're basically a logistics company who sorted out unbelievably efficient online delivery. There were lots of companies like DHL, Fed-Ex who were perfectly positioned to dominate that space but Bezos came in and shat all over them. Walmart, Tesco, Carrefour, Target, etc are all giants of retail and he's shat all over them as well.

Though now hes worth some $130bn it would be nice to hear he's going to go down the Bill Gates/Mark Zuckerburg route and do something useful with it.

Ipso

randd1 wrote: »

Americans don't like taxing the wealthy. It's too close to socialism for them.

And they just don't like socialism, even if it benefits them, or if they stupidly don't realize that quite a fair bit of their country is socialist be definition. But they don't like socialism.

So accumulate away there Jeff, it's the American thing to do.

The cheek of them, if it weren't for their ignorance they could be like Cuba or Venezuela.

Earthhorse

The issue I have with companies like Amazon, Google, Apple etc. all of whose products I use and enjoy is that they don't pay their fair share of tax.

If they did that I might be happier with the inordinate amounts of money they make.

Zebra3

Ipso wrote: »

The cheek of them, if it weren't for their ignorance they could be like Cuba or Venezuela.

Or Haiti.

Oh wait, can't mention that country.

raze_them_all_

Sheeps wrote: »

There's no moral argument for billionaires to exist. I'm all for allowing people to be rewarded for their effort, but there is no amount of effort one person can ever do in a single life time that justifies the channelling of wealth to such a focal point as to create a billionaire. It's just not right.

Amazon is a great and I use it frequently and I wont blame Bezos for being rich. The issue is only changable through society and legislatively.

If I found a way to cure cancer/aids. Sold it for 300 a pop and became a billionaire people like you would complain that I didn't cure some other disease for free

Corben Dallas

Some say Profiteering from a Pandemic... others say... Fully utilizing his market position by raking in revenue because of his effective monopoly. Success!

---

Jeff Bezos has seen his net worth grow by 25 billion since the start of the pandemic.... and also said that his "investors may want to take seat" which one might take to mean... yes the company has made $4 billion in profit (1stQ earnings this year I believe) but to shareholders ...dont expect any payouts and dividends anytime soon.

So Amazon is keeping all the money ...thanks.

They have well documented poor staff relations and work practices. It seems also a poor attitude to their stockholders as well.

---

In short ...Stop buying useless stuff on the net you don't need while bored under the Covid lockdown.

randd1

Ipso wrote: »

The cheek of them, if it weren't for their ignorance they could be like Cuba or Venezuela.

Both of which have been pushed into poverty by American embargo's and trade policies against over-bearing dictatorships. And even at that, America is heading down their route in terms of poverty of the lower classes and the elite having all the wealth and power.

Or they could be like European countries that do have both capitalism and socialism.

And by socialism, I actually mean social democracy, not communism (á la Cuba) or wannabe communism dressed up as democracy with rigged elections (á la Venezuela).

One eyed Jack

Corben Dallas wrote: »

In short ...Stop buying useless stuff on the net you don't need while bored under the Covid lockdown.

Their online shopping is only a pittance of their actual revenue. They generate the greater amount of their revenue from their cloud services -


State of the cloud: Amazon Web Services is bigger than its other four major competitors, combined

ceadaoin.

I've definitely been using Amazon more than usual during all this. Especially for groceries which I hadn't done before. Having Amazon prime has been a lifesaver, probably literally in some cases. They are offering a useful service , not sure what the problem is.

4068ac1elhodqr

Amazon paid an effective (negative) -1.2% tax rate of in 2018 for the $11.8bn pre-tax profit in the US (where 21% is the standard federal rate)...
Clever accounting, tax rebates and diversion of cash into 'infrastructre' projects.
This means a single individual subscriber to Prime, paid more taxes than their corporation that year.

https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fniallmccarthy%2Ffiles%2F2019%2F02%2F20190218_Amazon_Tax.jpg/
No wonder he's loaded!

Many coffee chains do the same, snapping/pushing out up small independent stores 'investments' with their pre-tax profits to avoid taxes on net profit.
Starmucks paid an effective 2.8% rate for their uk's operation 2017 with profit of $213m. They dispute that, but the FT report, disputes their dispute.

completedit

Dravokivich wrote: »

You use his services. You give out about him making money because a lot of people use his services. Especially during this recent issue of Covid-19 when there's less access to shops.

Ok, so as I asked earlier what are you getting at? Oh... so your "he's getting rich because of covid-19" fell flat because it turns out, you're contributing to it. You start to lead into social issues and wage issues that we won't have a say in. And is pretty much a systemic issue in the USA, that extends beyond any number of popular shops/websites. They've a society and market setup that requires multiple incomes into a household.

But how is that Bezo's fault? With Amazon been given more money by you. During this?

I believe those working for Amazon should receive a fairer slice of the pie. The gap between CEO and worker has sky rocketed since the 1980s'. We are on course to a new feudalism. I can like the products and even admire Bezos, but how come a man who has stated 'there isn't enough philanthropic efforts in the world for me to spend my money on' can't provide a better income for the people who work for him who contribute to the success of the company.

Capt'n Midnight

Muahahaha wrote: »

Though now hes worth some $130bn it would be nice to hear he's going to go down the Bill Gates/Mark Zuckerburg route and do something useful with it.

He donated a $0.25 of a million to support bookshops affected by covid 19 closures.

Out of the $24,000 million increase in his wealth during the same time.
It would be like one of us getting a bonus of €1,000 and giving 1c back.



He's getting paid billions by the government for rocket research despite not demonstrating anything that couldn't have been done by using the control system from the 1993 DC-X on a WWII V2.


This is a tenuous link but it's more about the mentality of billionaires than anything else.
He also owns the Washington Post which doesn't doesn't pay Trump the homage The Donald thinks he deserves. So because Amazon relies on the US Postal Service Trump has decreed that it set aside insane amounts of money now to cover all future pension requirements even though private companies don't have to do it. Trump is pricing the service that rural America needs out of reach because of a unrelated spat.

Sheeps

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

If I found a way to cure cancer/aids. Sold it for 300 a pop and became a billionaire people like you would complain that I didn't cure some other disease for free

Incorrect

Capt'n Midnight

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

If I found a way to cure cancer/aids. Sold it for 300 a pop and became a billionaire people like you would complain that I didn't cure some other disease for free

Unfortunately due to the way the patent system works you can do exactly that.

But only for the life of the patent, after that it's a generic.



What is happening in the USA today is that Insulin for diabetes and EiPens cost a lot more than 300 a year. People are dying because they can't afford them.

The patent for insulin was sold off for $1 to put it in the public domain.
EpiPens shot up in price from $50 to $600 , original patent dates from 1970's.

NIMAN

But is he happy?

overkill602

completedit wrote: »

I believe those working for Amazon should receive a fairer slice of the pie. The gap between CEO and worker has sky rocketed since the 1980s'. We are on course to a new feudalism. I can like the products and even admire Bezos, but how come a man who has stated 'there isn't enough philanthropic efforts in the world for me to spend my money on' can't provide a better income for the people who work for him who contribute to the success of the company.

I am sure shareholders would disagree many who probably work there too.
It is a fantastic company run by a visionary.
Will only have these major companies succeed in the US europe is stuck in a socialist quagmire

Gradius

I read somewhere that he's on track to become the world's first trillionaire soonish.

There's wealth and being lucky/clever enough to get your hands on it. I've no problem with that at all.

However, there has to be a limit, on some terms, as to how much money one single person can accumulate. This single person is probably accruing millions upon millions while he has a slash, cuts his nails, asleep in bed. Without going into full blown communist/socialist commentary...why does he need that much money? It's not like he's doing anything to earn it anymore.

If you had 500 billion quid, would you notice any material difference in your life if it was reduced to 250 billion?

It's not just excessive, it's beyond the beyond at this point!

Muahahaha

Earthhorse wrote: »

The issue I have with companies like Amazon, Google, Apple etc. all of whose products I use and enjoy is that they don't pay their fair share of tax.

If they did that I might be happier with the inordinate amounts of money they make.

Yeah the tech companies get a really easy ride and its governments like our own who facilitate it. They're not happy paying a bargain 12.5% and reduce it down to just a fraction of that.

Hopefully something is done on an EU level, its wrong for society that you have these companies making billions and paying 1 or 2% in taxes. In Adam Smiths The Wealth of Nations one of his canons of taxation is the principle of equity and fairness, the idea that everyone pay their fare share. I dont think anyone could argue that tech companies paying 1 or 2% is anywhere near a level of fairness for society.

kowloon

Jeff just works several million times harder than the rest of us.

Gradius

overkill602 wrote: »

I am sure shareholders would disagree many who probably work there too.
It is a fantastic company run by a visionary.
Will only have these major companies succeed in the US europe is stuck in a socialist quagmire

A "visionary"?

He's a bloke who, in some capacity, started selling stuff on the Internet instead of physical shops. That's it.

Sure, there are a lot of difficulties to overcome, logistics etc. But the root of the idea is simple as muck.

Same with your man and PayPal. A convenient way to pay for goods over the Internet. That's it.

That guy from Apple that was supposedly a super genius for "inventing" the iphone/I pod or whatever. It was the thousands of nameless people that worked for him that actually made something.

Then they become billionaires and throw their money into very expensive ideas like space rockets. Do they have a single breeze about building space rockets? No.

Check it out. I'm going to throw 2% of my near limitless money into building cities under the sea. I'm a visionary, you see

A bloke that can accurately forsee and calculate the science of space like Einstein is a visionary. These mega-wealthy single-idea people above are just "right place, right time" people.

If amazon didn't take off, another company would have taken its place almost immediately. Whereas the likes of Einstein may never be repeated.

"visionaries" these people are not

Blueshoe

randd1 wrote: »

Americans don't like taxing the wealthy. It's too close to socialism for them.

And they just don't like socialism, even if it benefits them, or if they stupidly don't realize that quite a fair bit of their country is socialist be definition. But they don't like socialism.

So accumulate away there Jeff, it's the American thing to do.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.thejournal.ie/tax-scheme-multinationals-ireland-4815711-Sep2019/%3Famp%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjisaqE2bjpAhWHWhUIHfuNDD4QFjABegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw115RC_0QmEyneMgRS3hDWd&ampcf=1


We have our ways of looking after the super high earning too

raze_them_all_

Gradius wrote: »

A "visionary"?

He's a bloke who, in some capacity, started selling stuff on the Internet instead of physical shops. That's it.

Sure, there are a lot of difficulties to overcome, logistics etc. But the root of the idea is simple as muck.

Same with your man and PayPal. A convenient way to pay for goods over the Internet. That's it.

That guy from Apple that was supposedly a super genius for "inventing" the iphone/I pod or whatever. It was the thousands of nameless people that worked for him that actually made something.

Then they become billionaires and throw their money into very expensive ideas like space rockets. Do they have a single breeze about building space rockets? No.

Check it out. I'm going to throw 2% of my near limitless money into building cities under the sea. I'm a visionary, you see

A bloke that can accurately forsee and calculate the science of space like Einstein is a visionary. These mega-wealthy single-idea people above are just "right place, right time" people.

If amazon didn't take off, another company would have taken its place almost immediately. Whereas the likes of Einstein may never be repeated.

"visionaries" these people are not

If he didn't invent it someone else would of. Yes but nobody else did think of it. If they did we wouldn't be talking about others

Blueshoe

Blueshoe wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.thejournal.ie/tax-scheme-multinationals-ireland-4815711-Sep2019/%3Famp%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjisaqE2bjpAhWHWhUIHfuNDD4QFjABegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw115RC_0QmEyneMgRS3hDWd&ampcf=1





We have our ways of looking after the super high earning too

The amazon guy likely increases his wealth every hour by more than those affected there earn per annum



This deosnt seem a wealth distribution method that can last long term imo

WhiteMemento9

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

If he didn't invent it someone else would of. Yes but nobody else did think of it. If they did we wouldn't be talking about others

Try speaking English.

In an ideal world I'd be buying from small local businesses and they'd have everything I wanted at a reasonable price, and much of the time that's the case. However, I've relied on Amazon a fair bit over the last few months and appreciate the service and choice. I've no problem with Bezos being a billionaire, he's got a great product. I do have a problem with him and others being above paying tax, and with how their workers are apparently sometimes treated.

If there's a happy middle ground where people can get great choice and service and workers are respected and paid decently, it looks like nobody knows where it is, or isn't motivated to find it.

marklazarcovic

One thing all these massive companies have in common,is how they treat the people lower down working for them, usually terribly. It's one thing I don't understand,you have billions you won't ever spend,you could help your employees have a better life without any impact on your own..but instead,you try take more from them..

Psychopathic.

WhiteMemento9

marklazarcovic wrote: »

One thing all these massive companies have in common,is how they treat the people lower down working for them, usually terribly. It's one thing I don't understand,you have billions you won't ever spend,you could help your employees have a better life without any impact on your own..but instead,you try take more from them..

Psychopathic.

Yep, only need to look at the stories from the last week alone.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/04/amazon-engineer-resigns-over-companys-treatment-of-workers.html

https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/14/21259474/amazon-warehouse-worker-death-indiana

Shapey Fiend

Customers have got a bit myopic about getting everything at the lowest possible price as quickly as possible. The people manufacturing and distributing these products are the ones are paying for your discount. I try buy stuff locally off independent retailers as much as I can. These large corporations would soon change their tune if a decent proportion of people stopped frequenting them because of employee conditions.

overkill602

anzn discussed on a hard left board can only be negative, there european centre is in the UK don't think they would be welcome here our sw pays more ireland's biggest alternative employer

mikhail

Shapey Fiend wrote: »

Customers have got a bit myopic about getting everything at the lowest possible price as quickly as possible. The people manufacturing and distributing these products are the ones are paying for your discount. I try buy stuff locally off independent retailers as much as I can. These large corporations would soon change their tune if a decent proportion of people stopped frequenting them because of employee conditions.

That kind of measure has never done much for employees' rights. Labour law and unionisation is the answer. If labour laws are not up to the task of keeping Amazon workers from having to piss into bottles to make their quotas, they need updating.

marklazarcovic

marklazarcovic wrote: »

One thing all these massive companies have in common,is how they treat the people lower down working for them, usually terribly. It's one thing I don't understand,you have billions you won't ever spend,you could help your employees have a better life without any impact on your own..but instead,you try take more from them..

Psychopathic.

Plenty of small businesses with the owner sitting in the corner can treat their employees terribly. It's not unique to big companies.

nails1

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

It’s goddamned unAmerican not to profit from a national crisis.

Not just American. Look at how much Irish retailers are selling hand sanitisers and other cleaning products.