The Soulsborne combat debate

Retr0gamer

TitianGerm wrote: »

It's not the frame rate it's the frame pacing. Digital Foundry had a new video up the other day on someone fixing the pacing and bumping it to 60fps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hDIvDPRcPA

It doesn't hold a steady 30 anyway. And multiplayer is a laggy slide show.

TitianGerm

Retr0gamer wrote: »

It doesn't hold a steady 30 anyway. And multiplayer is a laggy slide show.

It does drop down FPS wise but it's not as big an issue as the frame pacing.

Mr Crispy

Rob2D wrote: »

Well there was a lot of info recently from a leak. Do we have an Elden Ring thread?

Yup.

How reliable is this leak? I'd be hesitant at calling it "info" if it was just some randomer on reddit! :pac:

johnny_ultimate

Bloodborne is so astoundingly good that the undeniable FPS issues barely factor into my memories of the game. It's the perfect From game for me, mainly because it's horrifyingly bleak world is a few steps beyond those in Sekiro or Souls. That and the sheer visceral aggression of the gameplay, which demands you play in the way From has always sort of being nudging you towards.

Would love a PC version (or PS5 if that's not to be) to see it soar, but regardless it will always stand as one of the great artistic accomplishments in modern gaming.

Retr0gamer

Lets just all agree it's a cluster**** and pray for a remaster

sweetie

I'd happily just take a sequel. more Yarnham please!

Doctor Nick

I'm currently running a SL1 toon on DS1. Been saying for years I'd try it but didn't think I'd be able to. Anyway I'm up to the Gruesome twosome now. O&S may take a while. Been grand so far. Was expecting Capra Demon to be my wall but ended up only taking three or four attempts. Not the plunge attack tactic either. Once I manage to kill those poxy dogs I face Capra head on.

Quaelaag took me an hour and was the biggest road block so far. Getting caught between her legs (ha) when she does that AOE attack is a one shot. I can imagine Four Kings will be next road block once (if) I get past O&S.

So games are difficult alright but not insurmountable.

In relation to Bloodborne performance issues, I did notice a lot of FPS drops when playing recent game. With the exception of Blighttown on original DS, I'd never really noticed before. Did drive me a bit mad at certain points and can now understand the problems people mentioned.

Doctor Nick

TitianGerm wrote: »

It's not the frame rate it's the frame pacing. Digital Foundry had a new video up the other day on someone fixing the pacing and bumping it to 60fps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hDIvDPRcPA

If that's Lance McDonald you should definitely check out his channel. He has amazing Soulsborne content with regards to cut content.

TitianGerm

Doctor Nick wrote: »

If that's Lance McDonald you should definitely check out his channel. He has amazing Soulsborne content with regards to cut content.

His channel was in my recommended feed on YouTube today.

Vaati is great for lore stuff.

Penn

Have to admit, now that I'm getting to places in Sekiro where there are bigger bosses who hit a lot harder, I'm enjoying the game less. I was enjoying the stealth side of the game, and some of the mini-bosses. But now there are bosses (and even some regular enemies) whose hits are pretty much insta-kills, and that's not helped by the fact that when they wind up for an attack and you dodge to their side, they completely pivot while standing in place and still hit you. That's just f*cking cheap.

I get that it takes patience, it takes trying and trying again, it takes perserverence. It's also taking the fun out of the game and I don't know if finally beating the boss will offset that when I know there'll soon be another boss and it starts again. But I'll keep belting on anyway.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

Have to admit, now that I'm getting to places in Sekiro where there are bigger bosses who hit a lot harder, I'm enjoying the game less. I was enjoying the stealth side of the game, and some of the mini-bosses. But now there are bosses (and even some regular enemies) whose hits are pretty much insta-kills, and that's not helped by the fact that when they wind up for an attack and you dodge to their side, they completely pivot while standing in place and still hit you. That's just f*cking cheap.

I get that it takes patience, it takes trying and trying again, it takes perserverence. It's also taking the fun out of the game and I don't know if finally beating the boss will offset that when I know there'll soon be another boss and it starts again. But I'll keep belting on anyway.

Have you been upgrading your Prayer Beads? I don't think any boss should be inst killing you.

Also is there a kanji flashing on the ones your trying to dodge?

nix

Some attacks just cant be dodged i found, kanji or not, you need to deflect them, i would advise making it a habit to try and deflect everything.. As i found with dodging, a lot of attacks just followed you regardless, which is going to piss anybody off..

Penn

TitianGerm wrote: »

Have you been upgrading your Prayer Beads? I don't think any boss should be inst killing you.

Also is there a kanji flashing on the ones your trying to dodge?

I'm one bead off a second upgrade. No kanji symbol either for some of them. The Seven Spears guy, I can sneak around him for first deathblow, but unless I'm at full health a lot of his hits insta-kill, and refilling health takes so long and doesn't completely replenish health (I have one upgrade to the effectiveness of healing items).

As for the dodging issue, I really noticed it last night with just a standard ogre enemy. He wound up for an attack and I nearly got him to do a full 360 trying to dodge around him before he actually did the attack and it still hit me, even though it wasn't a sweeping attack. Similar happened with the drunkard enemy in the burning castle area. They just seem to completely turn on their axis to hit you.

TitianGerm

Penn wrote: »

I'm one bead off a second upgrade. No kanji symbol either for some of them. The Seven Spears guy, I can sneak around him for first deathblow, but unless I'm at full health a lot of his hits insta-kill, and refilling health takes so long and doesn't completely replenish health (I have one upgrade to the effectiveness of healing items).

As for the dodging issue, I really noticed it last night with just a standard ogre enemy. He wound up for an attack and I nearly got him to do a full 360 trying to dodge around him before he actually did the attack and it still hit me, even though it wasn't a sweeping attack. Similar happened with the drunkard enemy in the burning castle area. They just seem to completely turn on their axis to hit you.

Just face Seven Spears up and Mikiri. Hit him once when he's stunned and reset.

I've had that once or twice on the ogres but I kill most of them by sneaking up on them and death blowing them.

Penn

Here's a good example of what I mean, about 2:55 into video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMWqnv8Oggk

Doctor Nick

The ogre is a pain in the arse. I never enjoy fighting him and was on my fourth play through when I last put it down. The tracking on his attacks are ridiculous and does border on bulls**t rather than fair IMO. Like you said he goes to drop kick you, you dodge and he adjusts his path midair and hits you anyway.

Like Nix says, dodging isn't the best way to get through this game. It's why I think so many Souls fans struggled so much with the game at first. You need to deflect everything and anything apart from the grabs and sweeps. Trusts can be deflected but mikiri is better with regards to Posture build up.

Try to get your last prayer bead for the HP and Posture boost, Penn, it does make a difference. Out of all of those you mentioned earlier I'd go for the well guy. Get a sneaky death blow than take him on for the second one. Firecrackers to stun him. Mikiri his kick which is a trust attack. Your enemy here is the camera.

johnny_ultimate

There’s no two ways about Sekiro being the hardest of the lot IMO - mainly down to the lack of summoning, but it really demands mastery of the mechanics too. There’s a few big moments in the first third where it REALLY tests your abilities (and it then settles somewhat until the outrageously difficult final boss). It’s hardest in those early-ish stages, and parrying and mikiri-countering are nigh-on essential.

There’s not much to say other than it’s part of the game. Obviously I love the game and would encourage anyone willing to stick with it as mechanically it’s a triumph. But it is difficult and it is demanding and it’ll lose some players because of it - honestly it’s not particularly accessible as a result even by From standards, and I’ve read interesting debates that. But then again I don’t think there’s any moment in gaming more triumphant than felling Genichiro

Retr0gamer

Penn don't try and dodge, it's only for grab attacks. Sekiro doesn't play like a souls game. You deflect instead of dodge.

It's hard to get used to since dodging was so effective in souls but once you master deflecting and not defaulting back to dodging it becomes second nature. You have to lose those old souls habits.

Penn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Penn don't try and dodge, it's only for grab attacks. Sekiro doesn't play like a souls game. You deflect instead of dodge.

It's hard to get used to since dodging was so effective in souls but once you master deflecting and not defaulting back to dodging it becomes second nature. You have to lose those old souls habits.

What Souls habits? Never played them

I try stay and block/deflect, but meter fills up fairly quickly with some enemies and I end up trying to go on the run. But it ties into my point about enemies turning on a pivot mid-attack. If you read an incoming attack and dodge out of the way, the enemy shouldn't be able to swing around on their heel to make the attack connect. That just feels cheap. If the combat system is designed to be unforgiving, difficult, and rewarding patience and reading attacks, it also has to be fair with it.

Anyway, took down the drunkard second try so got prayer bead from him and another from a chest I found by accident (hugged a wall by accident and it spun around and let me into a secret room). Went back to Ashina Castle. Seven Spears killed me another 4 times (I was fairly close at one point I think on one of them, but not even half health the other times). Similar with the guy in the well, and yeah, camera is definitely an issue with that one. I'll go back to it later.

nix

Dont let the dread/torment that seven spears causes get you down on the rest of the game, he is probably the hardest mini boss in the game and he actually does a good job in teaching you and making you better in the grand scheme of attacks/controls.

Doctor Nick

Penn wrote: »

What Souls habits? Never played them

I try stay and block/deflect, but meter fills up fairly quickly with some enemies and I end up trying to go on the run. But it ties into my point about enemies turning on a pivot mid-attack. If you read an incoming attack and dodge out of the way, the enemy shouldn't be able to swing around on their heel to make the attack connect. That just feels cheap. If the combat system is designed to be unforgiving, difficult, and rewarding patience and reading attacks, it also has to be fair with it.

Anyway, took down the drunkard second try so got prayer bead from him and another from a chest I found by accident (hugged a wall by accident and it spun around and let me into a secret room). Went back to Ashina Castle. Seven Spears killed me another 4 times (I was fairly close at one point I think on one of them, but not even half health the other times). Similar with the guy in the well, and yeah, camera is definitely an issue with that one. I'll go back to it later.

Perfect deflects will never break your Posture. So if the meter is almost filled but you can get the deflects you won't get Posture broken. This is never explained in the game. You can tell the difference between a deflect and block by the sound. Deflect is a higher pitched bing sound.

Retr0gamer

It's not just souls. Dodging in other games gives you bad Sekiro habits. Tracking attacks aren't realistic but they're there so you have to rely on deflects more.

Rob2D

It's funny, I found Sekiro the easiest of all the souls. It's just a simple rhythm game at the end of the day.

nix

Rob2D wrote: »

It's just a simple rhythm game at the end of the day.

Take that back! :mad:

Doctor Nick

nix wrote: »

Dont let the dread/torment that seven spears causes get you down on the rest of the game, he is probably the hardest mini boss in the game and he actually does a good job in teaching you and making you better in the grand scheme of attacks/controls.

What really annoyed me about 7 Spears and a couple of other bosses was when you land a mikiri they push you back a bit and nothing can be done about it. For me it kind of ruined the flow of the combat. Small annoyance but annoyance nonetheless.

With regards difficulty, I thought Sekiro was definitely the hardest or most punishing. I disagree with you when you say 7 Spears is hardest Boss. Throughout my three play throughs I found both

Snake Eyes

to be the toughest and I still struggle with them.

nix

Yeah they do suck, but theres a lot more of them to deal with, ya just gotta take it slow with them, same with 7 spears but hes a lot more in your face so harder to dance with i found.. Plus by the time you get to them you will have more hp/utility..

TitianGerm

nix wrote: »

Yeah they do suck, but theres a lot more of them to deal with, ya just gotta take it slow with them, same with 7 spears but hes a lot more in your face so harder to dance with i found.. Plus by the time you get to them you will have more hp/utility..

Theres the same amount of 7 Spears and Snake Eyes.

Doctor Nick

TitianGerm wrote: »

Theres the same amount of 7 Spears and Snake Eyes.

There is indeed provided you don't turn Shura.

nix

TitianGerm wrote: »

Theres the same amount of 7 Spears and Snake Eyes.

I havent played since release, so memory is fuzzy but I would have guessed there were more than two Snake eyes

And i forgot completely about the second Seven spears, urge to replay game plummeting :pac:

Brozy

I'm always intrigued by these threads related to the from software games. Bought Demon Souls back in 2012 and played it for maybe 5 hours (guessing) and I gave up as I hadn't a clue what I was at.

After following all the discussion here I believe I'm really missing out by not giving these games a good go. So I made the decision that the next time Dark Souls remastered goes on sale, I'm going to take the plunge and get stuck into it.

I think someone on here said that AAA games leave a lot to be desired and I have to agree. I picked up God of War in the sales before Christmas and was expecting to be blown away but wasn't all that impressed. The Norse mythology never struck a chord with me but still don't think there was anything groundbreaking in GOW.