The Soulsborne combat debate

Arcadeheroes

Exclamation Marc wrote: »

I'm sorry but saying its in the same league as Mario, Tetris, Zelda etc is just wrong. Those games are next level as regards their influence, legacy and even how they transcended and transformed gaming. Certain iterations of those series broke new ground for gaming, penetrated the mainstream and became cultural phenomenons.

Dark Souls may be an incredible game to some people and its commendable fine tuning of certain gaming tropes and difficulty demands were top drawer (and obviously inspired a genre) but adoring it doesn't equate it to those games. Plenty of games were influential and left their mark on the gaming industry or refocused the narrative but that's not enough on its own.

It's not my cup of tea as I've outlined (i find it repetitive and the difficulty curve is attainable but needlessly restrictive - only my opinion) but I respect it and what it brings and what if has done and it deserves to be recognised as an incredible game but saying its up there with Tetris, Mario or even games like GTA and the like is just not true. Its legacy is primarily as a hard as nails, unforgiving challenge with fantastic lore underpinning it, but that's nowhere near what a Zelda or Half Life or Minecraft did for gaming - and that's not necessarily a reflection on the game, it's just an insanely high bar.

I gave more than enough reasons to back up my points . Since 2009 The souls series has had an incredible impact on the way games have been made , You can still see their influence in a spectrum of games most recently the invading into peoples worlds in Doom Eternal .

Dark Souls more than deserves to be apart of the Elites IMO.

Taltos

+1000 Retro.

Add to that though, its amazing after so many years and with the servers all off how well the Demon Souls games stacks up even to modern games. Replayed it recently and I was immediately swept back into the whole world. It really was ground breaking for the time, the whole messaging and invasion mechanics, blew me away at the time, freaked me out when I first got invaded - major panic as I didn’t know what was going on. Just superb

Minime2.5

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Going to chime in to say that demons souls and the from software games are the most influential games of the last 15 years.

Their biggest innovation was asynchronous multiplayer and how it used online connectivity. Before demons souls multiplayer was basically join a server for a competitive match or else join a friend for coop which had to be set up before a game.

Demons souls made that seamless. It's not only a part of the game but also a part of the lore. Not only were the coop and competitive elements active while you played but other systems enabled by online systems were bubbling away in the background from hint systems and bloodstains and world tendencies.

You might not think it was influential because people now take these systems for granted but it was demons souls that started that.

I also feel that demons souls also really changed the industry in a positive way.

Before demons souls triple A gaming was a complete cesspit. Budgets were so big that massive sales numbers were needed to support them. Publishers were afraid to scare away customers so made sure to baby players with over long tutorials and making games that never punished the player. All games were boiled down into a tiny pool of genres that publishers thought would sell.

And then Demons souls came along. It wasn't a game about handholding the player through a rollercoaster that didn't let the player off the tracks. It was a game about exploration, about mechanics and letting the player figure it out. It let the player figure it out for themselves. It didn't treat them like babies. It was a game for people that lived videogames and completely at odds with the barely interactive cutscenes most games had become.

Even the publisher Sony had no expectations for it, sending it out to die. But it started selling insane numbers. Still Sony didn't believe in it and gave publishing duties in the west to third parties. It ended up breaking the million mark in the US and Europe and became atlus's biggest sales success ever. And then the sequels kept selling more.

It made publishers realise there was a market for challenging games. Games based around mechanics and exploration and didn't hold the players hand. Publishers started taking risks on these games. After ninja Gaiden was ruined by trying to make it appeal to the triple A market with ninja gaiden 3 team ninja made nioh. Activision published Sekiro. Triple A games are now more mechanically rich and have been respecting the player far more. I actually think breath of the wild would never exist if not for dark souls.

So from software games for me are arguably the most important games in the last 15 years. I'd rank them alongside stuff like Minecraft or even cave story/braid that sparked the indie game revolution.

So you may think dark souls isn't innovative but you probably played a game last night heavily influenced by it. Game designers by their nature love souls games because they are so mechanically rich and well designed.

I really hope demon souls gets a remaster. Do you think it will ?

McFly85

Havent played any of the souls games,but I have Bloodborne in the backlog and have recently started Sekiro, and I am terrible at it. Death is near constant, but I have to say it looks and plays beautifully. In the rare moments where it goes right and I actually manage to beat one of the bosses or get that parry just right it's a feeling that I just don't get in other games.

Thing is, I'm not sure if I'll ever finish it because there's so many other things that I want to finish, and I will be able to get through. While the highs are high, the constant repetition of defeat will make me reach for something different. But I can imagine myself constantly dipping back into it during breaks from other games.

I can see both sides of it, and I don't think the combat itself is the issue. If you took Sekiros mechanics and put them in a game with the difficulty of GoW I think you'd have an amazing game. The issue is the format of the games themselves. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Some will enjoy it, some will be frustrated by it. There's no right or wrong.

Potential-Monke

Ye are mentioning mechanics that really only apply to soulslike games. The (let's just call it) hard but fair combat, the messages, the seamless jumping onto other players games, the social messages... All stuff that turns me off. I bought the game. I want to play it. Not with other people. And no thanks to being ganked, and crap deliberately obtuse or incorrect messages. In a recent example of it, Death Stranding, it played a part in my not liking that game. Social whoring brought into gaming, yay!

Regarding the inspiration Cory Barlog apparantly took for the combat in God of War, is every game that uses timing, parry, dodge and block instead of hack and slash going to be a Souls inspired one? I read the article, he wanted combat like Dark Souls (ie: timing), but not Dark Souls. What he made was, imo, far better. Still requires timing (especially on Give me God of War) and planning, but not to the frustrating degree I get from the souls games. If the souls combat inspired the combat in God of War, then he took the formula and made it entertaining, something I don't associate with the combat in Dark Souls.

Still don't think it's as influential as ye make out. Enabling ganking and social whoring are not improvements imo. And I know people are reading this right now, thinking 'he's just a crap player that can't play games with a level of difficulty'. Back in the SNES days, I used to deal with my frustration in gaming (mostly due to badly made games and being broke), I used to hop the controller off the crt tv and get that lovely hollow bonk sound, immediately followed by an inspection of the controller, because the tv would never lose that. Dark Souls frustrates me, so instead of throwing my controller at my LED, I just move on, as there are far more games available today, and very affordable.

Arcadeheroes

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Ye are mentioning mechanics that really only apply to soulslike games. The (let's just call it) hard but fair combat, the messages, the seamless jumping onto other players games, the social messages... All stuff that turns me off. I bought the game. I want to play it. Not with other people. And no thanks to being ganked, and crap deliberately obtuse or incorrect messages. In a recent example of it, Death Stranding, it played a part in my not liking that game. Social whoring brought into gaming, yay!

Regarding the inspiration Cory Barlog apparantly took for the combat in God of War, is every game that uses timing, parry, dodge and block instead of hack and slash going to be a Souls inspired one? I read the article, he wanted combat like Dark Souls (ie: timing), but not Dark Souls. What he made was, imo, far better. Still requires timing (especially on Give me God of War) and planning, but not to the frustrating degree I get from the souls games. If the souls combat inspired the combat in God of War, then he took the formula and made it entertaining, something I don't associate with the combat in Dark Souls.
Still don't think it's as influential as ye make out. Enabling ganking and social whoring are not improvements imo. And I know people are reading this right now, thinking 'he's just a crap player that can't play games with a level of difficulty'. Back in the SNES days, I used to deal with my frustration in gaming (mostly due to badly made games and being broke), I used to hop the controller off the crt tv and get that lovely hollow bonk sound, immediately followed by an inspection of the controller, because the tv would never lose that. Dark Souls frustrates me, so instead of throwing my controller at my LED, I just move on, as there are far more games available today, and very affordable.

Well I would aspect for their to be improvements for how combat feels in God Of War compared to Dark souls when DS was released 9 years ago . It does not take away the accomplishments Dark souls has done .

Its has been already said that some might not think DS is influential , Its fine if some dont , alot of people found stacked cans in a museum inspirational and wanted to become artist when all I see are stacked cans .

But regardless if you see it , you cant deny the impact it has had on developers , hardware designers , gamers , hell it even inspired the guys who wrote and directed the tv show stranger things . its been 11 years since Demons souls came out and games are still drawing inspiration from it .

Retr0gamer

Its unfair and wrong to say dark souls influences only extend to souls like games. Pretty much every game dev adores the souls games and references them as inspiration. Even subtle things like social integration all took their cue from souls.

TitianGerm

Finally sat down to start DS for about the 10th time again and in the swing now.

The furthest I've ever gotten before being distracted was beating the Gargoyles.

This time I've just beaten them again but I'm actually able to parry now. The only one I'm struggling with timings on is the spear shield guys.

Started as a Pyromancer but running with the Drake Sword and Uchigatana. Seems much easier than before.

Brozy

All this debate has me jonesin'. I'll jump in next time it goes on sale on PS store. I only get a couple of hours at a time gaming a week so that might help from what I'm reading. Will probably refer to articles or videos for help (blasphemer). I'm interested to see how I get on. Demon Souls when I tried it seemed impossible but at the time I was busy with life.

Potential-Monke

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Its unfair and wrong to say dark souls influences only extend to souls like games. Pretty much every game dev adores the souls games and references them as inspiration. Even subtle things like social integration all took their cue from souls.

Similarily, I think it's unfair and wrong to hold it up beside Mario, Zelda, Minecraft, etc. And social integration ruins everything. Nothing like people to ruin something you like.

Retr0gamer

Well thankfully that opinion is nowhere near the majority opinion in game development where the influence of dark souls and other esoteric influences such as board games are making videogames a richer experience for everyone.

As for ranking it up there with the Mario's and Zelda's, you can fight all day about what the best game ever is, nobody can say what is it isn't but if somebody told me one of the souls games was their favourite games of all time I couldn't argue with them as it's an excellent choice. I would rank those games with the greatest of all time. And most best of the decade lists from respectable journalistic sources, and less respectable ones would concur

johnnysmack

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2054921285/2/#post112313996

Best games of the decade as voted for by boards members. Not a single mention of any DS titles or bloodborne. Not half as popular as ye think.

nix

Wow, a whole top 3 :rolleyes::pac:

Potential-Monke

nix wrote: »

Wow, a whole top 3 :rolleyes::pac:

Is there anything outside the top 3? Medals stop at 3... :pac:

Ye're very defensive of the aul souls games.

Retr0gamer

Should have had a best souls game of the decade award.

johnnysmack

johnnysmack wrote: »

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2054921285/2/#post112313996

Best games of the decade as voted for by boards members. Not a single mention of any DS titles or bloodborne. Not half as popular as ye think.

In fairness a quick google of games of the decade features dark souls and bloodborne in most lists. As much I don't want to admit it, because as we all know DS is overrated, I can't deny it's influence.

nix

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Is there anything outside the top 3? Medals stop at 3... :pac:

Ye're very defensive of the aul souls games.

Ah i just like to see credit to go where its due.. :pac:

Thing about the witcher 3 as a game, take away its story and you have a mediocre game. Take away a Soulsbornes story and you have pretty much the same game everybody experiences anyway when they first play it, pure game play :pac:

Similarly if you give a Soulsbornes a story, you might have a game that doesn't devolve into a repetitive slog :pac:

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Similarly if you give a Soulsbornes a story, you might have a game that doesn't devolve into a repetitive slog :pac:

Similarly if you take away the moaning, have a bit of patience and git gud with a souls game you end up with one of the best games of the decade.

gimli2112

you don't even need to be that good, look at me

Just had a quick look at my hours on steam

DS1 - 21 hours
DS2 - 37 hours
DS3 - 27 hours

Didn't finish any of them.

How good can a game be if it can't hold my attention till the end

nix

You must have enjoyed them if you got all 3 of them, not the games fault you have ADD :pac::D

Retr0gamer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Just had a quick look at my hours on steam

DS1 - 21 hours
DS2 - 37 hours
DS3 - 27 hours

Didn't finish any of them.

How good can a game be if it can't hold my attention till the end

Steam review: I put 37 hours into this game. Awful.

I've put less time into games I've finished multiple times!

I get caught up in the frenzy when it comes out. That new-game fever. I forget for a while what I dislike about them. They're not bad games. I genuinely do enjoy the first bit of them until it dawns upon me that it's the same thing over and over. Sekiro elicited more of a emotional response in me due to the characters. Wanting revenge and to rescue your old master pushes you through.

johnny_ultimate

As I said earlier in the thread, this is a subjective thing it’ll be impossible to agree on. I know a From game will have me hooked until I beat it - they’re some of the only games I will reliably play through in a week or two without getting distracted or bored. I found FF7 Remake a chore to finish (and possibly wouldn’t have had the world not been in lockdown), but I put roughly the same amount of time into Sekiro and barely felt the hours pass. I’m pretty sure I finished Dark Souls in a week or two despite being someone who’d 95% of the time try to stick to two hours or so of gaming a day (and not every day). When a Soulsborne game, it’s futile to pretend I’ll be doing much else with my downtime until the credits roll.

I’ve been playing The Witcher 3 again a bit in the past few months, and I think it’s a really great game in lots of respects. But I find the moment to moment traversal of the world and combat pretty dull if I’m being frank. I think the game has more than enough to keep me going beyond that, don’t get me wrong. But again I wouldn’t criticise any aspect of DS or its brethren like that - I find the whole gameplay loop immensely engaging and intensive for long periods of times in ways beyond the vast majority of even really, really good games. Again, I can only speak for myself in this regard

Arcadeheroes

Deleted User wrote: »

I get caught up in the frenzy when it comes out. That new-game fever. I forget for a while what I dislike about them. They're not bad games.I genuinely do enjoy the first bit of them until it dawns upon me that it's the same thing over and over. Sekiro elicited more of a emotional response in me due to the characters. Wanting revenge and to rescue your old master pushes you through.

I am curious can you list any games that constantly changes in gameplay without having the player doing the same thing over and over ?

Retr0gamer

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Steam review: I put 37 hours into this game. Awful.

I've put less time into games I've finished multiple times!

I know you kinda meant that as a joke but never said they were awful. I'm pushing back against this "best game ever" stuff. Probably give them 7/10 if I had to put a number on them and I feel that's generous.

Retr0gamer

Are they just not for you rather than being bad games though? Because the people that do like them rank them as some of the very best games ever made.

I mean civilisation, championship manager or gran turismo never appealed to me. But I can see why people love them and rank them so highly. They just aren't for me.

What's your take on 'nintendo' hard games from the NES era? Because the way I see Dark Souls is it's the NES Castlevania games or games like them brought into 3D. It's got that same sort of challenging but fair gameplay, intricate level design and world build from it's level design. But it's also got laser focused design, where its the player against the game designer. It's a design philosophy mostly absent now outside of indie games that channel old school games and maybe the better stuff from platinum.

noodler

I'm just delighted they aren't for everyone tbh.