Golf Lockdown Discussion ** No discussion of breaking Restrictions **

PARlance

prawnsambo wrote: »

No, I had thought of that, but by the same token, he's got nothing to lose. But he probably doesn't have the backbone required unfortunately. Just pointing out the obvious route to take for people who are incensed by this.

My line to those would be life's too short to be getting incensed. The weeks will fly by and it'll be forgotten in a month or two. We're fairly "lucky" to be golfing imo, I expected a bigger backlash from non golfers tbh that could have scuppered things.

CalamariFritti

Its a bit pathetic tho how we have gone from what's necessary to do with regards to the virus to political squabbles and 'if I cant do X nobody will'. Some things will never change, eh...

Doesn't bother me personally if I'm not playing comps for another 3 weeks. But clubs are struggling financially already and its just reflective of a poor representation of its members by the GUI. And not only that but looking at wording and timing of the announcement they're also being taken for fools tbh.

Down9194

Just checked on GUI site and it looks like competitions are allowed in the North from Monday. Seems strange that they have changed rules in one jurisdiction only

PARlance

Down9194 wrote: »

Just checked on GUI site and it looks like competitions are allowed in the North from Monday. Seems strange that they have changed rules in one jurisdiction only

Northern Ireland is in the UK and take the lead from Boris not Leo. The GUI has to fall in line with either. I'm glad to have been taking the lead from Dublin on this one. Our death rate isn't great, but the UK's is almost double ours.

gypsy79

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Ok Gypsy 79, not sure why you posted above i have not criticized merely surmised the reasons for the backtrack. I agree its a load of me long lad and am mad to get playing competitively at this stage. Sure we can play together in Kilkea and set the world to rights.

Cause you were the one screaming to get last outing cancelled. You have been very pessimistic on everything. Just didnt want this been dragged down again.

It is my firm opinion that golf should never have been stopped

Poker Face

JOINT RESPONSE TO QUERIES ON COMPETITIONS BY GUI AND ILGU

Saturday, 6th June 2020



In light of the large volume of queries received, the GUI and ILGU would like to clarify the situation which led to its communication to golfers and golf clubs confirming that club competitions would not be permitted in Phase 2.



In mid-April the GUI and ILGU submitted a draft Protocol to Government which outlined the means by which the Unions felt that golf could be re-introduced on a safe, low-risk basis. This submission by the Unions ultimately led to golf being included, as one of only two named sports, in Phase 1 of the Government’s Roadmap for Reopening Society and Business.



Once the Unions became aware of the phased approach taken by Government, Golf’s Protocol was updated to include phases matching those in the Government’s Roadmap and the Union’s submitted their updated Protocol to Government, including an Appendix setting out Golf’s phased plan. The Appendix indicated that Club competitions would be allowed in Phase 2.



The GUI and ILGU then issued the Protocol to clubs and golfers, emphasising that:



“Public health measures are likely to be continually updated by the Government. Even if golf continues to be allowed in such circumstances, the Protocol governing the safe playing of the game may be updated in line with any changes to public health measures.”



Phase 1 of Golf’s Protocol was subsequently approved by the Government appointed Expert Group on the Return to Sport. Feedback from the group was silent in relation to Phase 2 and subsequent phases.



On the week commencing 25th May, the Unions submitted their detailed Protocol for Phase 2 to Government, including some easing in restrictions relating to group sizes and tee-time intervals, indicating that the Protocol would be published and issued to affiliated clubs on Monday, 1st June.



On Wednesday, 3rd June, the Expert Group on the Return to Sport met and considered Phase 2 protocols from various sports. At this meeting, the Group decided that competitions across all team and individual sports would not be permitted in Phase 2. This was communicated to the Unions on Thursday, 4th June.



Clearly, the Unions remained of the view that golf competitions, played under that conditions set out in Appendix 2 of the Unions Phase 2 Protocol, posed no additional risk to golfers. This was communicated to Sport Ireland on the afternoon of Thursday, 4th June and Sport Ireland were asked to reconsider the position.



On the afternoon of Friday, 5th June, Sport Ireland confirmed the decision of the Expert Group, as follows:



“An important point is that the Expert Group advises against any competitive sport in Phase 2. That is a general point across all sports and not directed at golf specifically although relevant to your plans. Fairness and consistency of the application of advice across all sport is an important element of the mandate of the Expert Group.



There is a rationale behind that advice. Phase 2 remains a high risk Phase with COVID 19 still active in community settings. People are encouraged to return to sport and physical activity but strictly within public health guidelines. There are significant relaxations of the protocols but caution is still recommended. Competition in sport is not advised as it means higher intensity activity, more people involved in a particular event and an incentive for people to travel beyond the 20 km limit.



We understand your point that closed club competitions were included in protocols submitted some weeks ago. However, the Expert Group works on a Phase by Phase basis as the public health advice can change. Phase 2 was only considered on June 3 and it is understood that the public health emergency is an evolving situation with a high level of uncertainty from week to week. NGBs have to plan ahead but those plans are subject to change depending on Government approval and advice.”



The Unions then issued their statement to clubs confirming that competitions could not be played in Phase 2.



On the morning of Saturday, 6th June, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport issued a Press Release (See: https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/c7327-return-to-sport-expert-group-recommends-further-steps-towards-phase-2-protocols/) confirming the decision of the Expert Group. The Press Release states:



“On this occasion, the Expert Group emphasized that the resumption of permitted sporting activity under phase 2 related to team sports training (but not matches) where social distancing can be maintained and where there is no contact. The focus is on team training, not on the playing of team games.



Accordingly, the Expert Group confirmed that training matches, friendlies, competitive fixtures or competitions in individual or team sport are not included under phase two; these will arise in later phases.”



The GUI and ILGU acknowledge the work of the Expert Group in the complex matter of getting sport re-started in a safe manner and particularly, for the progressive approach the Group has taken in deciding that golf would be included from Phase 1. We will continue to work with the Group as we progress through the Roadmap.



The Unions welcome the easing of travel restrictions from 8th June, and their proposed elimination from Phase 3, which will allow increased access to golf courses and the potential for additional revenue generation from green fees.



Finally, we would like to commend our member clubs and golfers for the manner in which they have embraced Golf’s Protocol during Phase 1 and we welcome the fact that our game continues to provide an outlet to people in these challenging times.

Mushy

Still dont know how it works with horse racing fixtures seemingly going ahead

Poker Face

Mushy wrote: »

Still dont know how it works with horse racing fixtures seemingly going ahead

yeah completely daft. From Monday I can travel 100KM for a game of golf as a members guest of another course yet I cant enter a score on my phone for a competition in my home club.

Kingswood Rover

gypsy79 wrote: »

Cause you were the one screaming to get last outing cancelled. You have been very pessimistic on everything. Just didnt want this been dragged down again.

It is my firm opinion that golf should never have been stopped

And you are welcome to your opinion, at the time of the outing this was a rapidly developing epidemic which the country faced down through cutting transmission routes with unprecedented actions. By and Large those actions with the exception of Residential Care Facilities have now gotten us to a position where we can unwind and gingerly open up again. I think we may actually be at this stage a little too cautious. As for me being pessimistic on everything absolutely the other way you have to be given the team i follow. The glass is always half full but Co Vid had the potential if left unchecked to destroy peoples families and kill tens of thousands in this country it did not because of the efforts of the vast majority of the populace. See you in Kilkea.

Golfhead65

PARlance wrote: »

Northern Ireland is in the UK and take the lead from Boris not Leo. The GUI has to fall in line with either. I'm glad to have been taking the lead from Dublin on this one. Our death rate isn't great, but the UK's is almost double ours.

Yes but golf is governed from the republic so if it's open up there it should be open down here, I don't begrudge them but it's an absolute joke and again a lack of balls from those in charge.

Golfhead65

Mushy wrote: »

Still dont know how it works with horse racing fixtures seemingly going ahead

All about money and taxes that horse racing generates for the public coffers...sh1te

twounderpar

I still can't figure out why fourballs are allowed from Monday but internal golf competitions are not. Was this decision based on
scientific,medical or sporting grounds. I'd just like to know,that's all. The long statement from GUI does not address this.

A few weeks ago,Labour T.D. Alan Kelly sought more transparency from those making decisions. This is a classic case of lack of
transparency or explanation regarding this decision. It seems to me that the GUI accepted it without too much debate.

prawnsambo

twounderpar wrote: »

I still can't figure out why fourballs are allowed from Monday but internal golf competitions are not. Was this decision based on
scientific,medical or sporting grounds. I'd just like to know,that's all. The long statement from GUI does not address this.

A few weeks ago,Labour T.D. Alan Kelly sought more transparency from those making decisions. This is a classic case of lack of
transparency or explanation regarding this decision. It seems to me that the GUI accepted it without too much debate.

It's literally as I stated above. Sport Ireland decided that they can't have other sports annoying them about the return of competitive sports because some sports have it. So all (bar horse-racing who have too much political and economic clout) are excluded together. There have been a lot of complaints about the inability to train or compete from many of the sports NGBs lately.

GolfNut33

A lot of this is down to clubs/organisations afraid to question or go against Sport Ireland because they hand out the grants and fear not getting any future cash.

prawnsambo

GolfNut33 wrote: »

A lot of this is down to clubs/organisations afraid to question or go against Sport Ireland because they hand out the grants and fear not getting any future cash.

And the corollary to that is that it's not an idle threat. And when you think about that...

CalamariFritti

It was a lot of bull yesterday and it still is today. My club is now looking for a booking few for casual rounds for the next 3 weeks in order make up for the competition shortfall. While the members have accepted that we're going to be 'down' two months on our annual golf vs membership fees we now have to make additional payments on top of it. Not going down well at all. A lot of disgruntled members and clubs. The GUI has let everyone down with this and no matter what sort of construed justification they come out with it remains a poor decision.

twounderpar

From Monday they are allowing more golfers to play together, that is 4 instead of 3. They see no problem with spreading the virus in that
situation. Yet running a competition is seen to be a threat. Why?

The GUI have certainly fallen asleep at the wheel on this one.

FixdePitchmark

twounderpar wrote: »

From Monday they are allowing more golfers to play together, that is 4 instead of 3. They see no problem with spreading the virus in that
situation. Yet running a competition is seen to be a threat. Why?

The GUI have certainly fallen asleep at the wheel on this one.

Do people need to calm down a bit about competitions ?

It is all positive that we are back to some form of golf and further opening up.

Yes , I miss competitions and all that - but we are still effectively in control measures - with over 70 cases in one day a few days ago and deaths still present. Things are going in the right direction - but a long long way to go. Months.

At the end of the day - competitions involve a need to not social distance - I haven't come across any convincing way this can be done with some form of verbal agreement / protocol / non exchanging of cards.

The technological solutions are the way to go - but we simply do not have time to implement them quick enough.

I'm still counting my lucky stars we can play golf.

Kingswood Rover

Golfhead65 wrote: »

Yes but golf is governed from the republic so if it's open up there it should be open down here, I don't begrudge them but it's an absolute joke and again a lack of balls from those in charge.

What the GUI should have sway over regional health policy in the UK, yep your right those gelded GUI FECKERS

twounderpar

In the statement it says the Expert Group decided that competitions across all team and individual sports would not be permitted in
Phase 2.
Is horse racing not a competitive sport.

Anyway I'm quite calm about the situation. All I'm trying to do is attempting to tease out the logic behind the decision.

PARlance

twounderpar wrote: »

In the statement it says the Expert Group decided that competitions across all team and individual sports would not be permitted in
Phase 2.
Is horse racing not a competitive sport.

Anyway I'm quite calm about the situation. All I'm trying to do is attempting to tease out the logic behind the decision.

My horses never get within 2m of the winner anyway!

twounderpar

PARlance wrote: »

My horses never get within 2m of the winner anyway!

The old jokes are the best!

youcancallmeal

twounderpar wrote: »

In the statement it says the Expert Group decided that competitions across all team and individual sports would not be permitted in
Phase 2.
Is horse racing not a competitive sport.

Anyway I'm quite calm about the situation. All I'm trying to do is attempting to tease out the logic behind the decision.

Statement here says
“An important point is that the Expert Group advises against any competitive sport in Phase 2. That is a general point across all sports and not directed at golf specifically although relevant to your plans. Fairness and consistency of the application of advice across all sport is an important element of the mandate of the Expert Group."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if it's just advice then it doesn't necessarily have to be followed right? I guess the GUI weren't willing to go against it for fear of their funding being cut

Golfhead65

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Statement here says
“An important point is that the Expert Group advises against any competitive sport in Phase 2. That is a general point across all sports and not directed at golf specifically although relevant to your plans. Fairness and consistency of the application of advice across all sport is an important element of the mandate of the Expert Group."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if it's just advice then it doesn't necessarily have to be followed right? I guess the GUI weren't willing to go against it for fear of their funding being cut

As I said before no balls and ruderless

prawnsambo

youcancallmeal wrote: »

Statement here says
“An important point is that the Expert Group advises against any competitive sport in Phase 2. That is a general point across all sports and not directed at golf specifically although relevant to your plans. Fairness and consistency of the application of advice across all sport is an important element of the mandate of the Expert Group."

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but if it's just advice then it doesn't necessarily have to be followed right? I guess the GUI weren't willing to go against it for fear of their funding being cut

You're never going to see these statements saying that it's an order. And it's not set in legislation, so it's not law either. But advice is about as strong as it gets.

If I said clubs can go ahead ad ignore it if they like it's only advice, would you?

twounderpar

I'm playing in a fourball tomorrow and I'll observe all guidelines as laid out by GUI and my club. I just wonder in what way would having
a scorecard in my back pocket create a risk to the spreading of the virus.

This expert group is made up of 12 people including one representative from FAI, IRFU and GAA.

They also decided at the end of Phase One that driving ranges were indoor facilities. Did they ever change their mind on that decision
because it seems all driving ranges opened their doors anyway.

BoldReason

To answer the query about horse racing earlier. HRI receives its guidance and funding from the department of agriculture and not sport Ireland.

It was originally scheduled to return on June 28th however they requested that it be considered that the date be move forward to an earlier date as it is likely to be easy to practice social Distancing there. Also that there are 30k+ working in the industry was a considering factor as well as the direct affect no flat racing would have on the breeding industry.

BoldReason

Finally will get out today for a game with the 5km restriction being lifted. I expect nothing less than 10 scratches for about 18 points

Forgetting about us as individuals for a minute.

How many more Clubs will this decision put in a very serious financial position? Yes it won't matter to a lot but it could be the tipping point for some.

I also feel sorry for all of the unpaid volunteers up and down the country who have been working tirelessly behind the scenes to make sure everything was set up for an effective and safe return to competition golf.

Golf is my Game

RGS wrote: »

What's needed it for every club to refuse to pay the gui sub in 2021. They cant suspend all clubs.
Are clubs willing to go that far in protest?

If those fussed about it, are still having a tantrum in a years time, about being denied competitions golf, for three weeks during covid unlocking, during which they can still nevertheless play golf, they will be quickly told be the rest of the members who just want to get on with golf and have their GUI handicaps legit with golfnet access, to just grow up.

thecomedian

My club are having a fun scramble at the weekend with a €10 entry fee.
I’m guessing the funds are badly needed.
It’s a disgraceful decision from the GUI to put clubs in this position.

hurikane

thecomedian wrote: »

My club are having a fun scramble at the weekend with a €10 entry fee.
I’m guessing the funds are badly needed.
It’s a disgraceful decision from the GUI to put clubs in this position.

I have it on good authority that the cancellation of club competitions in this phase is to reduce the current workloads on committees, who have been inundated with new members and handicap transfers. Also due to shortages in the defence forces, committees will be called up to defend county borders from golfers travelling county to county in search of a game. All necessary training will be provided to committees, who will be issued with fire arms.

bustercherry

Exactly wrote: »

Forgetting about us as individuals for a minute.

How many more Clubs will this decision put in a very serious financial position? Yes it won't matter to a lot but it could be the tipping point for some.

I also feel sorry for all of the unpaid volunteers up and down the country who have been working tirelessly behind the scenes to make sure everything was set up for an effective and safe return to competition golf.

I just don't get this argument - these are member competitions not opens or green fees.

For non-member owned clubs, competition fees "should not" be going back to the course owners anyway. They are normally separate entities, hence if the club entity is run on a voluntary basis then the impact is "effectively" zero (on the course - I get that the club may have to curtail some of activities).

For member owned clubs, if you are reliant on member comp fees to keep the course operating, then I'd say you have serious problems already.

CalamariFritti

Yes many clubs will be having serious problems already. No income for 2 months. No green fees for god knows how long, at least 3 months. No bar no restaurant no pro shop income but retainers need to be paid. Members looking for payment lapses due to unemployment. Its quite a list.

Most golf club budgets won't have much room to spare. Many members owned clubs basically operate as a non-profit and only the biggest clubs will have a reserve to fall back on. And its not like the last 10 years have been golden years anyway.

Member competitions do contribute to the funding as not the entire competition pot is being paid out. Semi opens and opens are quite a chunk in our budget I believe. In any case, every little helps.

FixdePitchmark

twounderpar wrote: »

I'm playing in a fourball tomorrow and I'll observe all guidelines as laid out by GUI and my club. I just wonder in what way would having
a scorecard in my back pocket create a risk to the spreading of the virus.

This expert group is made up of 12 people including one representative from FAI, IRFU and GAA.

They also decided at the end of Phase One that driving ranges were indoor facilities. Did they ever change their mind on that decision
because it seems all driving ranges opened their doors anyway.

How are you going to enter a score ?

Nothing has changes in relation to avoid touching surfaces or even the 2 meters as far as I know ?

CalamariFritti

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How are you going to enter a score ?

Nothing has changes in relation to avoid touching surfaces or even the 2 meters as far as I know ?

Could tap the screen/keyboard with the back of your pencil? Ideally one of those with a rubber?

prawnsambo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How are you going to enter a score ?

Nothing has changes in relation to avoid touching surfaces or even the 2 meters as far as I know ?

A paper scorecard that hasn't been touched by anyone else is fine. GUI/CONGU have advised that you mark your own score, agree with marker and write their name in. And then there are the electronic methods such as handicap master through the BRS golf app.

FixdePitchmark

Does every club and golfer - right now, have a system to enter scores remotely ?

bustercherry

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Yes many clubs will be having serious problems already. No income for 2 months. No green fees for god knows how long, at least 3 months. No bar no restaurant no pro shop income but retainers need to be paid. Members looking for payment lapses due to unemployment. Its quite a list.

Most golf club budgets won't have much room to spare. Many members owned clubs basically operate as a non-profit and only the biggest clubs will have a reserve to fall back on. And its not like the last 10 years have been golden years anyway.

Member competitions do contribute to the funding as not the entire competition pot is being paid out. Semi opens and opens are quite a chunk in our budget I believe. In any case, every little helps.

I'm not disputng the problems of having no additional income on top of members subs, and what subs are getting paid.

It's in the context of the decision to change the phase 2 requirements to not allow members comps (not opens or semi-opens because they were never in scope), I don't get how it puts a club in any more precarious a financial position?

In a non-member owned club, that money will go back into running the club and not the course so it's irrelevant. In a member owned club, I get every bit helps but 3 weeks is nothing in the grand scheme of things. If the club is in serious difficulty already then the club should be doing other things to inject cash flow.

Golf is my Game

Exactly wrote: »

Forgetting about us as individuals for a minute.

How many more Clubs will this decision put in a very serious financial position?

None. If their down to their last thousand quid making a difference, then they are already gone. Think in their annoyance at losing a couple of comps, lads are really loosing their reason here.

prawnsambo

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Does every club and golfer - right now, have a system to enter scores remotely ?

Certainly every club that uses Master Scoreboard and Golfraffix's system plus a couple more like IG would. Last I heard, HowDidIDo were working on adding the facility, but no sign of that yet. Latest version of the app on Google Play seems to be from last year.

downthemiddle

thecomedian wrote: »

My club are having a fun scramble at the weekend with a €10 entry fee.
I’m guessing the funds are badly needed.
It’s a disgraceful decision from the GUI to put clubs in this position.

It would be if it was a GUI decision.

prawnsambo

Golf is my Game wrote: »

None. If their down to their last thousand quid making a difference, then they are already gone. Think in their annoyance at losing a couple of comps, lads are really loosing their reason here.

It's not a 'couple of comps'. It's the loss of all competition, green fee and society income since 21st March. It will now be over a quarter of a year of lost income by the time that income starts flowing in again.

Golf is my Game

twounderpar wrote: »

I'm playing in a fourball tomorrow and I'll observe all guidelines as laid out by GUI and my club. I just wonder in what way would having
a scorecard in my back pocket create a risk to the spreading of the virus.

This is the wrong way to look at it, and similar to the round in circles discusion that was here on the 2km / 5km travelling. Regulations can always be argued at the margins. They have to allow for all sorts, and so can be a bit blunt, which when looked at in fine detail, seemingly illogical flaws can be found. But the line has to be drawn somewhere.
You state a question that is not the one being answered by the law. Of course you having a card in your back pocket wont spread it. But to allow you to do that would open a wider case where the virus would be spread. Again, its like the 2km thing : If 2km is OK, then surely 2.1km is ok - if Im travelling 10km for work, then surely travelling 9km to golf is OK too, etc, etc. People are not seeing the wood for the trees like.

Golf is my Game

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not a 'couple of comps'. It's the loss of all competition, green fee and society income since 21st March. It will now be over a quarter of a year of lost income by the time that income starts flowing in again.

What people is clearly getting hot up about is the 3 week delay. Thats not even a straw to break the tipping point.

prawnsambo

Golf is my Game wrote: »

What people is clearly getting hot up about is the 3 week delay. Thats not even a straw to break the tipping point.

How do you know that? No income for another three weeks whilst costs have escalated through the additional requirements posed by maintaining a safe environment. Five clubs have closed so far.

thecomedian

hurikane wrote: »

I have it on good authority that the cancellation of club competitions in this phase is to reduce the current workloads on committees, who have been inundated with new members and handicap transfers. Also due to shortages in the defence forces, committees will be called up to defend county borders from golfers travelling county to county in search of a game. All necessary training will be provided to committees, who will be issued with fire arms.

???????

downthemiddle

thecomedian wrote: »

???????

And you think you’re the comedian!!!

RGS

People are annoyed at the GUI handling of this matter.

The GUI roadmap initially released allowed for closed comps and members guests from this morning. Clubs and software providers took the roadmap and ran with it and did all the necessary work on amending time sheets, providing digital scorecards etc and had their competitions arranged for the next number of weeks and saw all their work discarded by a statement after 7.30pm on Friday.

The GUI statement on Saturday stated that feedback from the expert group was silent on the phase 2 elements whereas the elements in phase 1 were approved.
It was incumbent on the GUI to seek early clarification on phase 2 or amend the roadmap to state only casual golf until the expert group advises otherwise.

Secondly releasing the statement after 7.30pm on a Friday was in my view done to avoid questions or comments at the WHS zoom conference on Friday afternoon.

The saying "over promised and under delivered" applies to the GUI in this instance.

People accepted that restrictions were necessary and sport had to cease. All sports people wanted was proper guidance and advise from their association.

thecomedian

downthemiddle wrote: »

And you think you’re the comedian!!!

I guess I didn’t see the funny side.