Should prisoners have to work?

TuringBot47

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Definitely the CAB should be going through all their posessions etc after being convicted of any serious offence.
Reduce their dole after release.

Say what you like, but I wish society had the balls to bring back the death penalty for very serious crimes.

A and b are great ideas but not new and not popular. I'm baffled why not.

Idea C is a bad one. No matter how bad the sentence is, with a prison cell you can be released and compensated in the event of a wrongful conviction. With a death sentence you can't.

TheBoyConor

Maybe it varies by prison, but I am told that in Cork, there was big suspicion about being a snitch, especially if you were seen doing jobs as you'd have to be on the guard;s good side to be able to get them. Apparently, a lot of people get or used to get cut there. My friend has shown me fellas with visibly scarred faces. There are a lot of fellas who are traumatised from the violence the have experienced in prison. I know one fella who got badly cut in prison in Cork and you'd know by him that it has affected him. Very skittish and distrustful of people.

Another thing that happens is that troublesome prisoners from Dublin are transferred down to to Cork and they get a very hard time of it from the Cork inmates. I suppose the reverse also happens with Cork troublemakers being sent to Dublin or Limerick.

Cobalt17

cian68 wrote: »

If they're paid a fair wage sure

I’d see them more as interns tbh.

steddyeddy

Edgware wrote: »

It worked out well for Andy Dufresne and Red. Those beers sure looked nice

Well seeing as they were American beers they probably tasted like p1ss.

RandomViewer

Augeo wrote: »

My Dad did one after taking voluntary redundancy ........ he worked as a care taker in local school. Himself and the other folk on the scheme weren't at all as you describe.

Brother in law is a seasonal worker, did a scheme through winter,

cruizer101

I think they should, there is plenty of work they could be doing be it pickling litter out of ditches or if they have a skill set they can use, let them use it. Yes there is a cost associated with having to supervise them but stick and ankle bracelet with tracking on and I think it should be workable.

They should be paid for this work, as you don't want it turning into a slave labor type situation like they have in US.
From this pay they should pay tax and there should then be deductions to pay for the accommodation and food they are receiving, the excess they can then choose to spend on luxuries such as cigarettes, console games, whatever. Possibly a certain amount should be set aside to give them when they leave prison to help them get going.

The reasoning here is to try and instill a work ethic in them and also to show them that the reality of life that you work and most of your money goes on essentials like food and accommodation. They refuse to work they don't get to buy luxuries.
Actually getting valuable productivity out of them would be ideal but nearly more of a secondary objective, main purpose of prison is reform.

Edgware

First get rid of anyone in prison for non payment off fines by having a weekly deduction from their welfare or wages. Also if a prisoner is willing to work and does so satisfactorily then give him extra remission. Of course exceptions made for violent criminals.

Lux23

No, I don't think they should be forced to work, but I would be in favour of work programmes where they might learn useful skills that will set them up for a better life on the outside.

Lux23

Lux23 wrote: »

No, I don't think they should be forced to work, but I would be in favour of work programmes where they might learn useful skills that will set them up for a better life on the outside.

Already exists

Montage of Feck

Put them on thread mills to generate green energy.

El_Duderino 09

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Unions for the people who normally do that type of work would be up in arms over it claiming that some of their work is being taken away to be done by unpaid labour and that it harms their future propects and will reduced opportunities for people who might be inclined to start at that job.

And the unions would be absolutely right - the unions would be the only ones in a position to actually stand up and say anything. The people who would lose out are the low skilled or unskilled workers who would otherwise do the jobs.

And calling it unpaid labour is a nice way of saying slave labour. I'm not in favour of slave labour or unpaid labour or any other way you want to phrase it. If a society wants a job done, like litter picking, then they should allocate the funds and pay for it. If the proposal was to pay the prisoners the going rate to do the work, then it might have merit. But absolutely no to slave labour.

El_Duderino 09

kowloon wrote: »

Need to be careful it doesn't devolve into slave labour.

It would start at slave labour. I would worry it would devolve into a scheme which some people profit from the slave labour of others. If you turn the prisons into a source of slave labour then there's less incentive to reduce the prison population through crime reduction.

kowloon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would start at slave labour. I would worry it would devolve into a scheme which some people profit from the slave labour of others. If you turn the prisons into a source of slave labour then there's less incentive to reduce the prison population through crime reduction.

Yes, it already was slavery, private prisons profiting off captive labour is what I had in the back of my head. Particularly when the system flips on its head and the justice system becomes concerned with providing a labour force.

square ball

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It would start at slave labour. I would worry it would devolve into a scheme which some people profit from the slave labour of others. If you turn the prisons into a source of slave labour then there's less incentive to reduce the prison population through crime reduction.

Except on the part of the people committing the crimes maybe.

ShatterAlan

square ball wrote: »

They should definitely have to do something. Prison sentences in this country are not a deterrent to stop people from committing crime. You would imagine if prison was a tougher place to go a certain amount of people after their first visit would straighten themselves out or sort themselves out so they don't have to go back.

It seems to be a bit of a holiday camp especially for frequent visitors who don't mind going back to meet family/friends etc.

This argument has been done to fcuking death. It's a proven fact that Irish prisons are not pleasant places. Prisoners do NOT get sky TV and playstations. They do NOT get michelin star food, in fact they get a fryup once a year and that's on Christmas Day...and that's it. So talk about them being like holiday camps is pure drivel.



It is also a proven fact that harsher prison conditions do NOT deter criminality. Rehabilitation is the only proven method of ensuring a reduction in recidivism. People who trot cliches like "an eye for and eye" or "can't do the time don't do the crime" or any other such stupid slogans really should stop to think before tey open their mouths.



Look at the methods that work and have proved to work. Then look at the methods that don't work and have proved not to work and then make a logical choice.

corner of hells

ShatterAlan wrote: »

This argument has been done to fcuking death. It's a proven fact that Irish prisons are not pleasant places. Prisoners do NOT get sky TV and playstations. They do NOT get michelin star food, in fact they get a fryup once a year and that's on Christmas Day...and that's it. So talk about them being like holiday camps is pure drivel.



It is also a proven fact that harsher prison conditions do NOT deter criminality. Rehabilitation is the only proven method of ensuring a reduction in recidivism. People who trot cliches like "an eye for and eye" or "can't do the time don't do the crime" or any other such stupid slogans really should stop to think before tey open their mouths.



Look at the methods that work and have proved to work. Then look at the methods that don't work and have proved not to work and then make a logical choice.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/prison-service-spends-325000-so-inmates-can-watch-sky-sports-38472562.html&ved=2ahUKEwj67NL-9L3pAhX0pHEKHfKhBwQQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0kb62xESyp8D77fzsGHSjq&ampcf=1

Feckin ' prison service telling porkies.

Omackeral

corner of hells wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/prison-service-spends-325000-so-inmates-can-watch-sky-sports-38472562.html&ved=2ahUKEwj67NL-9L3pAhX0pHEKHfKhBwQQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0kb62xESyp8D77fzsGHSjq&ampcf=1

Feckin ' prison service telling porkies.

Work in the prison service 12 years, first I’ve ever heard of them charging prisoners for Sky in their cells! In my place, they had it shown in communal rec halls but never in cells.

Funnily enough, they have given them Netflix as of late as there are no visits anymore and the prisoners are locked back the majority of the day. It’s a universal master profile in that they don’t get to control it. It’s all done remotely. Some of the stuff they’re letting them watch though... you wouldn’t believe me!

corner of hells

Omackeral wrote: »

Work in the prison service 12 years, first I’ve ever heard of them charging prisoners for Sky in their cells! In my place, they had it shown in communal rec halls but never in cells.

Funnily enough, they have given them Netflix as of late as there are no visits anymore and the prisoners are locked back the majority of the day. It’s a universal master profile in that they don’t get to control it. It’s all done remotely. Some of the stuff they’re letting them watch though... you wouldn’t believe me!

Feckin indo telling lies.

Omackeral

Not saying they’re lying, saying I’ve never heard of that set up myself. Could well be the case in some places!

CrankyHaus

Lux23 wrote: »

No, I don't think they should be forced to work, but I would be in favour of work programmes where they might learn useful skills that will set them up for a better life on the outside.

Agreed. It might be possible for their work to subsidise the work/learning programme, either by performing a function that would have to be paid for otherwise, or by creating some transferable value. My understanding is that those programmes are oversubscribed so anything that subsidises them increases availability.

Beyond that I'm sceptical of forcing prisoners to work. Most wouldn't be fit for much more than basic manual labour and would have to be watched carefully to prevent F Ups.

Omackeral wrote: »

. Some of the stuff they’re letting them watch though... you wouldn’t believe me!

Do tell.

angel eyes 2012

This thread is starting to go down this road

ShatterAlan

Jurgen Klopp wrote: »

I do remember a nice village that was using people on the CE to tend the flower beds in the village and cut the grass etc being an absolute disaster that the council had to take over it again and use actual workers

The village was known for its famous rose beds, was stunning now, roses in baskets over hanging the river, loads of flower beds at all entrances to the places etc

However once the CE lads took over flowers planted and dying after a few weeks, loads of leaves and briars thrown on footpaths, grass areas only being hit and missed cut along with leaving lumps grass on the road and paths ways etc

I don't know if the workers were just useless or a cute way of getting out of having to do it

Frankly I wasn't too sorry as it was during teh recession and some fulltime council workers who worked those jobs for years were let go and never replaced as the council were licking their lips at the free labour from the unemployed on the scheme and it backfired spectacularly

Agree. People think that you will get quality work out of those who are forced to do it. This has never proven to be the case. Rounding up a bunch of prisoners to paint fences or pick strawberries is farcical. They won't give a toss about the job. What are you going to do...start whipping them?


Look at any country that's had mandatory National Service. What you get it a bloated, completely useless bureaucracy with conscripts doing sweet FA day in day out for a year. An acquaintance of mine grew up in the former East Germany near the East-West border. Him and his mates used to go to the border in a rural area and just hang out with the DDR border guards and sit around drinking and smoking and listening to the radio. None of the guards gave a sh1t about the job or even if any of my friend's mates crossed over. They often did into no man's land to take a piss just for the craic. Could have easily just walked on over to the West German fences and gone through.

ShatterAlan

TuringBot47 wrote: »

Definitely the CAB should be going through all their posessions etc after being convicted of any serious offence.
Reduce their dole after release.

Say what you like, but I wish society had the balls to bring back the death penalty for very serious crimes.

Why? Society doesn't NEED the balls. The death penalty was abolished and there is no chance of it coming back as any discussion of the subject had been shutdown.



The death penalty has proven not to work and yet here you are pining for something that doesn't work. Obviously you are not interested in schemes, protocols and procedures that work but rather ones that satisfy your own thirst for revenge.

ShatterAlan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

They have PlayStation and TV in the cells.

There's jobs and courses available.

They have a gym and a rec room compete with pool or snooker.

They have movies and books available.

Being 'cut' is exceptionally rare.

TV license prisoners are people who thought they were smarter than the system and refused the dozen chances to avoid prison.

I don't know a criminal that would describe it as 'nice' or like a hotel but I have had honest conversations with many who aren't worried about it and some, usually at their lowest due to drugs and mental health, who welcome it for the treatment and warm bed it will provide.

The only ones who have playstations are the ones who have been given them by family members. They are not provided by the prison. And the games consoles have to be pretty primitive ... no internet access. As for those that have tv's the tv's are also pretty basic and I believe only get terrestrial channels. Mobile phones are not allowed.


So if you're still trying to flog the dead horse that these guys are living in the Dorchester then you don't know what you're talking about.

CrankyHaus

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Agree. People think that you will get quality work out of those who are forced to do it. This has never proven to be the case. Rounding up a bunch of prisoners to paint fences or pick strawberries is farcical. They won't give a toss about the job. What are you going to do...start whipping them?


Look at any country that's had mandatory National Service. What you get it a bloated, completely useless bureaucracy with conscripts doing sweet FA day in day out for a year. An acquaintance of mine grew up in the former East Germany near the East-West border. Him and his mates used to go to the border in a rural area and just hang out with the DDR border guards and sit around drinking and smoking and listening to the radio. None of the guards gave a sh1t about the job or even if any of my friend's mates crossed over. They often did into no man's land to take a piss just for the craic. Could have easily just walked on over to the West German fences and gone through.

That's as much a consequence of the state of the DDR as anything intrinsic to national service.

Some of the best militaries have been conscript based, not least because it gives the military the pick of the best 18 year olds rather than having to take whoever shows up at the recruiting office.

For example the IDF is hardly a bunch of unmotivated dossers and the Bundeswehr has had quality issues with switching to all-volunteer, including Nazis enlisting.

I agree that you won't get good work out of prisoners forced to work against their will though.

ShatterAlan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

A and b are great ideas but not new and not popular. I'm baffled why not.

Idea C is a bad one. No matter how bad the sentence is, with a prison cell you can be released and compensated in the event of a wrongful conviction. With a death sentence you can't.

And what do you think a non-rehabilitated criminal will do in the event of their dole being reduced or cut? What might they possibly do to make up the shortfall?


Get a paper round? Set up a lemonade stand?

Sleeper12

Cobalt17 wrote:

So I’m not talking about a chain-gang style system. But surely prisoners can pay some sort of debt to society, like litter picking or something like that, which benefits the society they’ve sinned against?

We already have community service. Being sent to jail is the punishment.

Prisoners already work inside the prison. In fact most prisons couldn't be run if it wasn't for the prisoners working. Prisoners Cook & service the food. Prisoners run the laundry. Prisoners paint the prison. Prisoners clean the prison etc.

If one prisoner has a hospital appointment then they go handcuffed and accompanied by two prison officers. How much do you suppose it would cost to supervise prisoners while outside of the prison. Prisoners have a habit of turning violent or trying to escape.

suicide_circus

for people with hundreds of convictions, perhaps digging a ditch would help them break the cycle. i'm not actually opposed to them being paid for said labour.

ShatterAlan

corner of hells wrote: »

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/prison-service-spends-325000-so-inmates-can-watch-sky-sports-38472562.html&ved=2ahUKEwj67NL-9L3pAhX0pHEKHfKhBwQQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0kb62xESyp8D77fzsGHSjq&ampcf=1

Feckin ' prison service telling porkies.

So the prisoners pay for it then.

ShatterAlan

CrankyHaus wrote: »

That's as much a consequence of the state of the DDR as anything intrinsic to national service.

Some of the best militaries have been conscript based, not least because it gives the military the pick of the best 18 year olds rather than having to take whoever shows up at the recruiting office.

For example the IDF is hardly a bunch of unmotivated dossers and the Bundeswehr has had quality issues with switching to all-volunteer, including Nazis enlisting.

I agree that you won't get good work out of prisoners forced to work against their will though.

From what I gather, the IDF combat troops are not made up of the dregs of society. Take a look at the US conscripts in Vietnam. None of them gave a damn about "the mission". In fact most of the all-volunteer force nowadays don't give a damn either. For every one fool who joined up thinking he was defending his country against a non-existent threat there are 4 who just want a way out of the ghetto or the trailer park. But that's another discussion.