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Should prisoners have to work?

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    The only ones who have playstations are the ones who have been given them by family members. They are not provided by the prison. And the games consoles have to be pretty primitive ... no internet access. As for those that have tv's the tv's are also pretty basic and I believe only get terrestrial channels. Mobile phones are not allowed.


    So if you're still trying to flog the dead horse that these guys are living in the Dorchester then you don't know what you're talking about.

    Been inside Mountjoy when it was still at Pat's multiple times. Have you?


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    #63
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Been inside Mountjoy multiple times. Have you?

    I have. It's exactly how he describes.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Omackeral wrote: »
    I have. It's exactly how he describes.

    They had PlayStations in what was St Pat's. I have physically seen them. Ok so it's not every wing but they are there or at least were.

    They also had all the other things I said so It's as I described.

    I never described it as a hotel though. I actually said it wasn't.


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    #65
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    I think they should, there is plenty of work they could be doing be it pickling litter out of ditches or if they have a skill set they can use, let them use it. Yes there is a cost associated with having to supervise them but stick and ankle bracelet with tracking on and I think it should be workable.

    They should be paid for this work, as you don't want it turning into a slave labor type situation like they have in US.
    From this pay they should pay tax and there should then be deductions to pay for the accommodation and food they are receiving, the excess they can then choose to spend on luxuries such as cigarettes, console games, whatever. Possibly a certain amount should be set aside to give them when they leave prison to help them get going.

    The reasoning here is to try and instill a work ethic in them and also to show them that the reality of life that you work and most of your money goes on essentials like food and accommodation. They refuse to work they don't get to buy luxuries.
    Actually getting valuable productivity out of them would be ideal but nearly more of a secondary objective, main purpose of prison is reform.

    Wouldn't work that way because most of them get their lifestyle free or heavily subsidised anyway through a mixture of welfare and criminal activity. And they know this. So why would they bother to work for their keep like normal schmucks?

    Why go out and work hard while in prison when you can sit on your hole and get your 3 meals bed and board and all the other regular prison stuff anyway, and do a bit of drug dealing on the side for your extra cash.


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    #66
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Been inside Mountjoy when it was still at Pat's multiple times. Have you?


    No....but a friend is a screw there and another friend is a guard at Cloverhill.


    They corroborate my story.


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    No....but a friend is a screw there and another friend is a guard at Cloverhill.


    They corroborate my story.

    So what is it you think I got wrong? You agree PlayStations and TVs exist in the cells. They have books, they have gyms, they have pool and / or snooker. They have tuck shops. They have movies.

    What do you actually disagree with?


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    #68
    KaneToad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,387 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    Detention of liberty is the punishment. It's severe enough as is. We've had a partial lockdown for a few weeks and one thing I've learned is how great it is to have your liberty.


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    #69
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    They had PlayStations in what was St Pat's. I have physically seen them. Ok so it's not every wing but they are there m

    They also had all the other things I said so It's as I described.

    I never described it as a hotel though. I actually said it wasn't.


    They also have socks and bars of chocolate and pocket radios and extra underwear and a pair of fcuking trainers.


    These are not provided by the prison service. They are given and paid for by visitors and/or family members.....like the aforementioned luxury Playstations that everyone seems to think a prisoner automatically gets along with his blanket, pillow and roll of bog paper.


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    #70
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,487 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    They had PlayStations in what was St Pat's. I have physically seen them. Ok so it's not every wing but they are there or at least were.

    They also had all the other things I said so It's as I described.

    I never described it as a hotel though. I actually said it wasn't.

    So what if they have a playstation or an Xbox? What's the problem with it.

    You go on as if a game console was the ultimate pleasure in life.

    I would have thought people who have now been in a form of prison in their own homes over the last few weeks would have more empathy for prisoners now.

    It's now about what they have inside it's that they're confined to a particular place, spend most of their time in a cell and have the liberty of going anywhere taken away from them.

    That's punishment enough in my opinion.

    Struggling myself with the lockdown myself at this stage even though I can go out everyday and I have a smart TV, Xbox, Netflix etc.

    Being locked up for years must be mental torture even if you have a game console


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    #71
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Treat them for their mental illnesses and give them an education

    If they refuse that

    Rock breaking


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    #72
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    So what is it you think I got wrong? You agree PlayStations and TVs exist in the cells. They have books, they have gyms, they have pool and / or snooker. They have tuck shops. They have movies.

    What do you actually disagree with?


    What I disagree with is people trying to maintain that prisoners are given fancy gadgets and an easy ride which would make most of us envy their conditions. "It's a holiday camp!", "They have cells that make the Gresham look like a slum", "They get all these delicious meals", "They go there because it's nicer and cushier than DisneyWorld".




    That's what I'm disagreeing with. You're just bare-assed lying.


    I never said playstations didn't exist in prisons but people like you seem to try to bluff the rest of us out that they just are given them.....and they're NOT. If some bloke in the lockup-up has a fcuking watch are you going to try to say that they are all given free Rolexes on the taxpayers' dime?


    Cop on.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    They also have socks and bars of chocolate and pocket radios and extra underwear and a pair of fcuking trainers.


    These are not provided by the prison service. They are given and paid for by visitors and/or family members.....like the aforementioned luxury Playstations that everyone seems to think a prisoner automatically gets along with his blanket, pillow and roll of bog paper.

    ShatterAlan wrote: »
    What I disagree with is people trying to maintain that prisoners are given fancy gadgets and an easy ride which would make most of us envy their conditions. "It's a holiday camp!", "They have cells that make the Gresham look like a slum", "They get all these delicious meals", "They go there because it's nicer and cushier than DisneyWorld".




    That's what I'm disagreeing with. You're just bare-assed lying.


    I never said playstations didn't exist in prisons but people like you seem to try to bluff the rest of us out that they just are given them.....and they're NOT. If some bloke in the lockup-up has a fcuking watch are you going to try to say that they are all given free Rolexes on the taxpayers' dime?


    Cop on.

    Very angry.

    I don't see your point here really. Does it really matter if the prison pays for it? The reality is there's a person who has been found guilty of (probable a violent) crime sitting in a prison cell playing PlayStation while eating snacks. He can also go play pool or hit the gym. In fact he can go have a game on indoor football or basketball but presumable that's limited.

    I also very specifucally stated that I have never heard any prisoner compare it to a holiday and I never described prison as a holiday home. I merely stated my personal experience of dealing with them.

    Fyi, the prison inspectorate states in his report that the PlayStations are provided. It's in page 35 of the one I have linked. He further states that d wing benefits from extra TV channels but I have no idea what they are or what is 'basic'. Oh and a nice fryup every Sunday. I suppose he's wrong too and you are right?

    (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/stpats0405.pdf/Files/stpats0405.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj_t9eyuL7pAhXFUMAKHXGdBhkQFjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw09GS4fKuVFJH5Jm1LUWqmT)

    So again, what's your beef with what I posted? It's all accurate and as I have not lied, I will thank you to redact that slur.


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    #74
    Queasy Tadpole
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Queasy Tadpole


    Have to work? No, that's slavery.

    Given the opportunity to work for a normal days wage? Then yes, 100%.


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    murpho999 wrote: »
    So what if they have a playstation or an Xbox? What's the problem with it.

    You go on as if a game console was the ultimate pleasure in life.

    I would have thought people who have now been in a form of prison in their own homes over the last few weeks would have more empathy for prisoners now.

    It's now about what they have inside it's that they're confined to a particular place, spend most of their time in a cell and have the liberty of going anywhere taken away from them.

    That's punishment enough in my opinion.

    Struggling myself with the lockdown myself at this stage even though I can go out everyday and I have a smart TV, Xbox, Netflix etc.

    Being locked up for years must be mental torture even if you have a game console

    Best not commit crime then if it's so difficult for you. It is supposed to be punishment after all


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    #76
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Very angry.

    I don't see your point here really. Does it really matter if the prison pays for it? The reality is there's a person who has been found guilty of (probable a violent) crime sitting in a prison cell playing PlayStation while eating snacks. He can also go play pool or hit the gym. In fact he can go have a game on indoor football or basketball but presumable that's limited.

    I also very specifucally stated that I have never heard any prisoner compare it to a holiday and I never described prison as a holiday home. I merely stated my personal experience of dealing with them.

    Fyi, the prison inspectorate states in his report that the PlayStations are provided. It's in page 35 of the one I have linked. He further states that d wing benefits from extra TV channels but I have no idea what they are or what is 'basic'. Oh and a nice fryup every Sunday. I suppose he's wrong too and you are right?

    (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/stpats0405.pdf/Files/stpats0405.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj_t9eyuL7pAhXFUMAKHXGdBhkQFjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw09GS4fKuVFJH5Jm1LUWqmT)

    So again, what's your beef with what I posted? It's all accurate and as I have not lied, I will thank you to redact that slur.

    That's a report about St Pat's from 2004.


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    #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    corner of hells wrote: »
    That's a report about St Pat's from 2004.

    Indeed. Maybe they have upgraded the consoles since?

    Similar reports available online for Limerick and Shelton abbey


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    #78
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Indeed. Maybe they have upgraded the consoles since?

    It doesn't exist anymore.


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    #79
    corner of hells
    Registered Users Posts: 8,386 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Indeed. Maybe they have upgraded the consoles since?

    It doesn't exist anymore.


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    #80
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,369 ✭ [Deleted User]


    corner of hells wrote: »
    It doesn't exist anymore.

    Sorry, I edited with more info.

    They also had them in Limerick and Shelton abbey.

    I'm sure obberstown has no such items though.


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    #81
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,487 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Best not commit crime then if it's so difficult for you. It is supposed to be punishment after all

    Yes, that's my point. The punishment is removal of their liberties, rights and freedom to make decisions.

    There's no need to make them suffer any more mental hardship , slave work, or denial of entertainment.


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    #82
    SuperSean11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭SuperSean11


    Edgware wrote: »
    It worked out well for Andy Dufresne and Red. Those beers sure looked nice

    First thing that came to mind :rolleyes:


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    #83
    ShatterAlan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    Very angry.

    I don't see your point here really. Does it really matter if the prison pays for it? The reality is there's a person who has been found guilty of (probable a violent) crime sitting in a prison cell playing PlayStation while eating snacks. He can also go play pool or hit the gym. In fact he can go have a game on indoor football or basketball but presumable that's limited.

    I also very specifucally stated that I have never heard any prisoner compare it to a holiday and I never described prison as a holiday home. I merely stated my personal experience of dealing with them.

    Fyi, the prison inspectorate states in his report that the PlayStations are provided. It's in page 35 of the one I have linked. He further states that d wing benefits from extra TV channels but I have no idea what they are or what is 'basic'. Oh and a nice fryup every Sunday. I suppose he's wrong too and you are right?

    (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/stpats0405.pdf/Files/stpats0405.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj_t9eyuL7pAhXFUMAKHXGdBhkQFjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw09GS4fKuVFJH5Jm1LUWqmT)

    So again, what's your beef with what I posted? It's all accurate and as I have not lied, I will thank you to redact that slur.


    Why so angry, you say?


    I'm not angry at all. I'm annoyed at people like you who spread lies.
    You asked me if I had experience of the inside of a prison and I replied that I hadn't.

    I do however have friends who are guards in detention facilities and they would roll their eyes at your assertions.


    You maintain that people getting "cut" is extremely rare. How on Earth would you know this? And it's not called "cut" it's called getting "chopped" for any specific rreason. It could be as innocuous as you saw some other loser in the system and thought he called your granny a slag.


    So if you are going to ask me about whether or not I've toured...the answer is no. But I'm not a bull****ter who tries to maintain that they are given the best of everything in their shoebox cells.


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    #84
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Should prisoners have to work ?

    Yes.

    I watched an interesting documentary on prison in Japan and think that model should be used in Ireland, including the mindless daily marching & routine drilling to punish, tire out and bore the wits out of the prisoners and teach them never to want to be forced to endure it again.

    I also think the CAB should be much more aggressive and proactive in seizing the assets of ALL criminals and the assets of their wives and living at home or unemployed children who cannot verify and prove how they got then - crime should not pay nor should criminals and their partners/wives/offspring/families be able to profit from the lifestyle provided by the profits of crime.

    I don’t believe prisoners should be let out to work - they are locked up for a reason - particularly in this country - it can be as menial as they want to create it and as mind numbingly boring and repetitive - but yes, absolutely, they should be made work and IN the prison.

    Years ago Kilmainham Gail had a hamster style treadmill prisoners would be forced to work on - they also had a human pump for the well for water for the prisons use and ‘oakum picking’ - I’d be all for whatever the modern equivalents would be and would welcome the human hamsterwheel for many - maybe we could link it to the national - or prison grid - no power no showers/LX etc. And definately no TV’s or technology for criminal scum entertainment.


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    #85
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Niner leprauchan wrote: »
    They also had them in Limerick and Shelton abbey.

    I'm sure obberstown has no such items though.

    Shelton Abbey is an open center. It’s not even a prison tbh. There’s literally no walls on the place, it’s a big house in the woods. It’s for people that are nearing the end of their sentence and getting ready to make a return to society. Some of them work in the town during the day among the public, which is relevant to this thread. So things are purposely relaxed there for reintegration reasons. Anyone can physically walk out the front door of they want. It’s run on the honour system.

    Oberstown is a children’s detention center. It’s not under the remit of the Irish Prison Service whatsoever. Has care workers rather than prison officers.


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    #86
    sf80
    Registered Users Posts: 252 ✭✭sf80


    Rodin wrote: »
    I'd have them labouring on new prison construction.
    Apparently the current prisons are bursting

    The prisoners building the prison; that would end well.


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    #87
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    JustAThought wrote: »
    Should prisoners have to work ?



    I watched an interesting documentary on prison in Japan and think that model should be used in Ireland, including the mindless daily marching & routine drilling to punish, tire out and bore the wits out of the prisoners and teach them never to want to be forced to endure it again.

    Years ago Kilmainham Gail had a hamster style treadmill prisoners would be forced to work on - they also had a human pump for the well for water for the prisons use and ‘oakum picking’ - I’d be all for whatever the modern equivalents would be and would welcome the human hamsterwheel for many - maybe we could link it to the national - or prison grid - no power no showers/LX etc. And definately no TV’s or technology for criminal scum entertainment.

    Ah here, come on and be realistic. The sort of hybrid Dickensian / Japanese Death March camp you describe would have nothing to contribute in terms of rehabilitation and is more so to satisfy your own thirst for revenge and to inflict suffering on prisoners. Someone spending 5 years in a hamster wheel or on some relentless marching reminiscent of the Jap POW camps would have the opposite effect - prisoners probably would be traumatised by the experience and it would extinguish any change of rehabilitating them back into society as normal functioning people.


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    #88
    Sephiroth_dude
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 80,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sephiroth_dude


    Mod

    Think this is better suited in CA, read the charter before posting.


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    #89
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    murpho999 wrote: »
    Yes, that's my point. The punishment is removal of their liberties, rights and freedom to make decisions.

    There's no need to make them suffer any more mental hardship , slave work, or denial of entertainment.
    It doesn't work anyway. Harsher prison systems don't result in less recidivism or lower crime rates.

    The only reason people want harsh prisons is out of a desire for revenge.

    I would have hoped that during this lockdown that people might realise the reality of how difficult an actual prison is. It's tough being confined to your home even with all your home comforts and the ability to talk endlessly with the outside world and go out every once in a while.

    Now imagine you're confined to a single room in your house, someone else decides when you wake, when you eat, what you eat, when you get outside and when you go back to your room.

    I don't think I'll ever blink if I hear of a prisoner having a playstation in their cell again. No amount of games consoles in your cell can even begin to offset the loss of freedom.

    In terms of prisoners working, it should be encouraged, but it should be a proper job paying real money. The aim is to rehabilitate and prepare the prisoner for the outside world, to become a productive member of society. Forcing them to engage in menial slave labour won't do that.


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    #90
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,642 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Issues that come to mind are exploitation and job displacement. If, to avoid exploitation, prisoners are to be paid a proper wage - at least minimum wage, then what can they do that isn't already being done by existing businesses, and can they be competitive? Or, if we decide that they should work for peanuts (they are convicted criminals after all) then will whatever they do end up being more competitive than existing businesses?

    Is there a niche there for a product or service that can be done by people in prison and is not currently being done by anybody outside prison?

    There are other ideas such as picking up litter, or weeding, and the like, but I wonder if there is a threat of litigation for injuries caused, or that security measures would make it prohibitively expensive (in comparison to just paying somebody to do it).

    I just wonder if that kind of effort/money towards getting them to 'do some work' wouldn't be better directed towards equipping them with skills which mean they are less likely to return to prison after leaving (although there can be an overlap between the two).


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    #91
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 29,559 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    Cobalt17 wrote:
    So I’m not talking about a chain-gang style system. But surely prisoners can pay some sort of debt to society, like litter picking or something like that, which benefits the society they’ve sinned against?


    Litter picking! That would hardly cause them to be resentful and angry against the world, would it? How about helping them deal with the underlying issues that lead them into the world of criminality in the first place, then train and education them as best as possible, prepare them for the working upon release, including some actual meaningful work, including decent pay and conditions


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