Should prisoners have to work?

ShatterAlan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Best not commit crime then if it's so difficult for you. It is supposed to be punishment after all

Didn't take long for the old BS "Can't do the time don't do the crime" cliche to surface.

ShatterAlan

seamus wrote: »

It doesn't work anyway. Harsher prison systems don't result in less recidivism or lower crime rates.

The only reason people want harsh prisons is out of a desire for revenge.

I would have hoped that during this lockdown that people might realise the reality of how difficult an actual prison is. It's tough being confined to your home even with all your home comforts and the ability to talk endlessly with the outside world and go out every once in a while.

Now imagine you're confined to a single room in your house, someone else decides when you wake, when you eat, what you eat, when you get outside and when you go back to your room.

I don't think I'll ever blink if I hear of a prisoner having a playstation in their cell again. No amount of games consoles in your cell can even begin to offset the loss of freedom.

In terms of prisoners working, it should be encouraged, but it should be a proper job paying real money. The aim is to rehabilitate and prepare the prisoner for the outside world, to become a productive member of society. Forcing them to engage in menial slave labour won't do that.

Well said. People crow about prisons being cushy place where prisoners who are released can't wait to get back inside it's so enjoyable.


Hands up who would would prefer to be confined for years to a luxury room in the Westbury over having their current life even if that current life you live in a modest flat in a scruffy neighbourhood?



In the hotel you have a big bed and TV and access to the gym and the pool and bar and you get to eat from the a la carte menu........BUT you can never leave the hotel. You're stuck there for 10 years. It might be fun for the first couple of weeks but after you realise that your liberty is gone and you're there for years, no walks in the park, no going to the pub or to a festival or theatre, no foreign holiday, no domestic holiday, no beach, no going to a match or to play a game of golf, no chance of meeting and flirting with some women, no change of scenery.....would you be so content with it then?

ShatterAlan

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

Stop being so angry and making out I said things I didn't. Twice now you have called me a liar. Quote the lie or retract the statement like an adult.

I deal with Criminals daily. I investigate all the assaults that occur in Mountjoy. It's not common and using a different term doesn't make you an expert because of mates unless your suggesting it's all hidden from the authorities and your mates are not just terrible at their jobs but possible worse.

Oh and it would be great if you could man up and acknowledge the multiple inspector reports that contradict your assessment of the facilities.

Who gives them the Playstations?

ShatterAlan

Cobalt17 wrote: »

Like I said before, they do have training and courses available in prison.

Secondly, I volunteer for litter picking every month, as do countless hard working, tax payers, who want to cohesively make the country a little bit better. I guess it’s ok for us to pick litter, but not for your precious jailbirds. They need hot chocolate and hugs instead.

Suggesting litter picking isn’t meaningful just reveals your broken attitude.

Why is it always a binary argument with people like you?


If someone disagrees with your recommendation then you default to the other end of the spectrum as being THEIR position.



Who mentioned your hot chocolate and hugs crap?

Cobalt17

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Why is it always a binary argument with people like you?


If someone disagrees with your recommendation then you default to the other end of the spectrum as being THEIR position.



Who mentioned your hot chocolate and hugs crap?

Because the poster I replied to said that he, nor myself would be willing to litter pick. That’s clearly false, and a lot of wonderful people volunteer their time for that purpose. I don’t see why such work is above those who have committed crimes that warrant a prison sentence, but it’s not above the genuine tax payers and people who make the country the generally pleasant place that it is.

As far as I’m concerned, anybody who thinks litter picking is some sort of lowly job, is so far out of touch with reality it’s shocking.

El_Duderino 09

Cobalt17 wrote: »

Because the poster I replied to said that he, nor myself would be willing to litter pick. That’s clearly false, and a lot of wonderful people volunteer their time for that purpose. I don’t see why such work is above those who have committed crimes that warrant a prison sentence, but it’s not above the genuine tax payers and people who make the country the generally pleasant place that it is.

As far as I’m concerned, anybody who thinks litter picking is some sort of lowly job, is so far out of touch with reality it’s shocking.

If litter picking is job we want done, then it's good enough to pay people to do it. The fact that it's seen as job that should be done by volunteers or prison slave labour shows the attitude towards it. I do not hold that attitude and I think there's dignity in doing any job that needs to be done.

If you want it done, pay normal people to do it - just like everything else.

irishgrover

I read the OP post and was pretty annoyed about the language and tone used by Cobalt17. The further I read the more annoyed I was getting. By the end of page 1 I realised that I was tired, my dyslexic tendencies had kicked in, and I had read "prisoners" as "pensioners"

thequarefellow

Give them work to do if only to decrease the boredom. I had a friend do a spell and he said that was the worst thing about prison. But I suppose there has to be an incentive. Pay, pride in work, remission, better conditions...

thequarefellow

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And what do you think a non-rehabilitated criminal will do in the event of their dole being reduced or cut? What might they possibly do to make up the shortfall?


Get a paper round? Set up a lemonade stand?

They might get a job. If the dole wasn't enough for them to stay out of trouble in the first place why is it going to do so after jail time? Yes, some of them will decide to go back to their old ways but I'd imagine that decision wouldn't be influenced by a reduction in dole payment. Dole payments in general should reduce over time.

duffman3833

Setup up recycling plants in prisons and make them sort out rubbish. Dump rubbish on conveyor belts and have them sitting each side and all down the belt grabbing anything recyclable from the rubbish. Create shift work and give them 2 days off a week so its like as if they are working a shift job. It could be ran 24hrs a day with 6 hrs shifts etc. Its the only job i could trust them with. Confined to a building and helping environment by sorting rubbish with possibly rewards for the work.

ShatterAlan

Cobalt17 wrote: »

Because the poster I replied to said that he, nor myself would be willing to litter pick. That’s clearly false, and a lot of wonderful people volunteer their time for that purpose. I don’t see why such work is above those who have committed crimes that warrant a prison sentence, but it’s not above the genuine tax payers and people who make the country the generally pleasant place that it is.

As far as I’m concerned, anybody who thinks litter picking is some sort of lowly job, is so far out of touch with reality it’s shocking.

People like you pick up litter not because you enjoy the work but because you have a vested interested in doing so. You're not doing it for the good of your health nor are you doing it because it's so stimulating. It's a sh1t job but a necessary one, I'll admit. If I was getting 100 quid an hour to pick up litter I'd be at it every morning noon and night, crap job as it may be.


You pick up litter because, I'm guessing, you live in the area where the litter is and you have a vested interest in improving the appearance of your own neighbourhood. Now maybe you pick up litter as well in other areas once a month but again I'm guessing that you do this as part of a social group so it's a community spirit thing.


I doubt your love of picking up litter would have you down Moore Street by yourself at 7pm on a Saturday night cleaning up after the market traders knock off nor would I imagine you hop in the car and drive to rural area and clear away the sh1t that fly tippers have dumped in lay-bys and ditches.


The work has meaning for you. It would have no meaning for a prisoner to clean up an area and improve its appearance that he was never going to enjoy himself. It's a naturally fullfilling thing to enjoy the fruit of one's labour. Failing that then at least get paid a decent wage to do something that's unfullfilling. At least you've got something to show for your efforts.

El_Duderino 09

duffman3833 wrote: »

Setup up recycling plants in prisons and make them sort out rubbish. Dump rubbish on conveyor belts and have them sitting each side and all down the belt grabbing anything recyclable from the rubbish. Create shift work and give them 2 days off a week so its like as if they are working a shift job. It could be ran 24hrs a day with 6 hrs shifts etc. Its the only job i could trust them with. Confined to a building and helping environment by sorting rubbish with possibly rewards for the work.

That's a job that needs to be done alright. But it's a job that people should be paid for. It's fine as long as people are paid for th job. There shouldn't be slave labour. That should be completely out of the question.

duffman3833

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's a job that needs to be done alright. But it's a job that people should be paid for. It's fine as long as people are paid for th job. There shouldn't be slave labour. That should be completely out of the question.

i myself dont believe they should be paid as they committed a crime and are doing the time. If payment is to be given to them, it is into a bank account that they wont have access to until they are free. This will give them a start on a new life to get house or a car to hopefully do something good with their new start on life

El_Duderino 09

duffman3833 wrote: »

i myself dont believe they should be paid as they committed a crime and are doing the time. If payment is to be given to them, it is into a bank account that they wont have access to until they are free. This will give them a start on a new life to get house or a car to hopefully do something good with their new start on life

Yeah but not paying people for work is slavery. I thought the question of whether slavery Is OK or not had been settled.

Yeah it would have to be money they can't access in prison.

micosoft

biko

Teach them to code. It's not hard labour and it'll give them a job when they get out.


"So you have a gap in your CV here?"
"I was in prison for drugs and murder"
"But they taught you COBOL, right?"

ShatterAlan

thequarefellow wrote: »

They might get a job. If the dole wasn't enough for them to stay out of trouble in the first place why is it going to do so after jail time? Yes, some of them will decide to go back to their old ways but I'd imagine that decision wouldn't be influenced by a reduction in dole payment. Dole payments in general should reduce over time.

Read what you just wrote.



The person is recommending their dole be reduced or even cut. So if dole wasn't enough to keep them out of trouble then cutting it is hardly going to improve matters, now is it. I would hazard a guess that it will accelerate their trajectory back into criminality.



And you throw out this "get a job" canard like it's the most simple solution just staring us all in the face and we just can't see it but your wisdom has provided the magic answer that eludes all of us.


How long does it take to get a job? I have a degree in Engineering and another degree in Mathematics. I work as an IT consultant. I have been months out of work on several occasions searching daily, whittling down savings and living off the girlfriend's income and I have an impressive CV, with an extensive history and no criminal record.


Now take some ex-prisoner with no skills, no savings and no dole coming in to keep him out of starvation as he searches for the holy grail of getting a job. Tack on the fact that he has a criminal record and no third level education and maybe not much of a second level one either. What jobs are open to him and who's going to give him the chance? After the first week or two of rejection after rejection and no money to keep him afloat what the hell do you think he's going to do? If he's lucky enough to have a mother to house him he's probably just going to hit er up for some cash to get a slab of cans and get pissed out of his skull to break up the drudgery of being told "thanks but no thanks" at every turn.


Then he sees guys living it up with cars and women and fancy clothes and the job they do requires no qualifications, make your own hours and preferably have a criminal record. What's he got to lose by becoming a footsoldier for some smack dealer?

biko

seamus wrote: »

The only reason people want harsh prisons is out of a desire for revenge.

Partly that (which in itself is a normal desire) but also to physically remove them from society.

Many people that have been robbed/raped/other would like for the person that committed the crime against them to not be walking around and possibly attacking another person.

ShatterAlan

duffman3833 wrote: »

i myself dont believe they should be paid as they committed a crime and are doing the time. If payment is to be given to them, it is into a bank account that they wont have access to until they are free. This will give them a start on a new life to get house or a car to hopefully do something good with their new start on life

If the work is unpaid then it should be voluntary, prisoner or free man.


Forced labour is counterproducitve and it's also illegal. So you're not exactly sending the right message by illegally forcing people to work in order to teach them to respect the law, are you?

thequarefellow

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Read what you just wrote.



The person is recommending their dole be reduced or even cut. So if dole wasn't enough to keep them out of trouble then cutting it is hardly going to improve matters, now is it. I would hazard a guess that it will accelerate their trajectory back into criminality.



And you throw out this "get a job" canard like it's the most simple solution just staring us all in the face and we just can't see it but your wisdom has provided the magic answer that eludes all of us.


How long does it take to get a job? I have a degree in Engineering and another degree in Mathematics. I work as an IT consultant. I have been months out of work on several occasions searching daily, whittling down savings and living off the girlfriend's income and I have an impressive CV, with an extensive history and no criminal record.


Now take some ex-prisoner with no skills, no savings and no dole coming in to keep him out of starvation as he searches for the holy grail of getting a job. Tack on the fact that he has a criminal record and no third level education and maybe not much of a second level one either. What jobs are open to him and who's going to give him the chance? After the first week or two of rejection after rejection and no money to keep him afloat what the hell do you think he's going to do? If he's lucky enough to have a mother to house him he's probably just going to hit er up for some cash to get a slab of cans and get pissed out of his skull to break up the drudgery of being told "thanks but no thanks" at every turn.


Then he sees guys living it up with cars and women and fancy clothes and the job they do requires no qualifications, make your own hours and preferably have a criminal record. What's he got to lose by becoming a footsoldier for some smack dealer?

Point taken My remark was lazy and ill-thought out.

What's your solution? Honest question

ShatterAlan

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Who gives them the Playstations?

The prisons. As stated in the inspectors reports that you still haven't buttered your Barney to read.

Again, what did I say was wrong?

Again will you about your were wrong about the facilities they have?

When did I cry foul over the PlayStations? I merely stated a fact. That fact being that they exist in the prison system.

As for that same old bull****. You are there only one coming out with garbage. Your made claims, your made allegations and haven't backed up a single one of them.

ShatterAlan

thequarefellow wrote: »

Point taken My remark was lazy and ill-thought out.

What's your solution? Honest question

I don't know...do you?


Maybe we delve deeper into the issue and take notes from successful paradigms elsewhere? That might be a decent start.....instead of farting out nonsensical personal whims that are as useless as tits on a dead fish.

Buck_rodgers

Yes make prisoners work.
Prison time is seen as a badge on honour to many, well lets take that back, make it once again a shameful experience, so put the prisoners out on the streets in ACME uniforms with arrows and have them clean the streets in chain gangs.
Make it a embarrassing thing to happen to you, prison should be shameful.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Buck_rodgers wrote: »

Yes make prisoners work.
Prison time is seen as a badge on honour to many, well lets take that back, make it once again a shameful experience, so put the prisoners out on the streets in ACME uniforms with arrows and have them clean the streets in chain gangs.
Make it a embarrassing thing to happen to you, prison should be shameful.

Nah, pink. With flowers and frills. See how the like their badge of honour then.

Seriously, though; as long as it was voluntary and wasn't taking a job away from someone else and putting them on the dole, go for it.

Buck_rodgers

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Nah, pink. With flowers and frills. See how the like their badge of honour then.

Seriously, though; as long as it was voluntary and wasn't taking a job away from someone else and putting them on the dole, go for it.

Just humiliating work for these hard men and women, have them sweeping the streets and cleaning public toilets while in chains, remove the "glamour" of the thug life.

KungPao

100% yes. A whupping would be ideal too. Whip them no good good for nothings into shape.

Burglars should be lowered into a vat of acid, but that’s for another thread

Buck_rodgers

KungPao wrote: »

100% yes. A whupping would be ideal too. Whip them no good good for nothings into shape.

Burglars should be lowered into a vat of acid, but that’s for another thread

Your on the right track
Prison time should be seen as the most embarrassing thing you have ever done and not something to brag about

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Buck_rodgers wrote: »

Just humiliating work for these hard men and women, have them sweeping the streets and cleaning public toilets while in chains, remove the "glamour" of the thug life.

You want to be careful, there Buck - for some people that's kinky, and the last thing you want to do is to make people want to do it.

biko

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You want to be careful, there Buck - for some people that's kinky, and the last thing you want to do is to make people want to do it.

We're not all like you Princess

But yeah, ship Dub scum to Cork to clean the "disadvantaged areas", and Limerick and Cork scum to Dublin.

El_Duderino 09

Buck_rodgers wrote: »

Just humiliating work for these hard men and women, have them sweeping the streets and cleaning public toilets while in chains, remove the "glamour" of the thug life.

That's a pretty shameful view of people who sweep streets and clean toilets for a living. I think clean streets and toilets are important and I appreciate the people who do it. It's s job that's worth paying for so i don't think prisoners should do it as slave labour.