Surrogate babies stranded in Ukraine

Muahahaha

lawred2 wrote: »

Lay your bets.

Estimates are that the majority of operators in the Ukraine are unregulated and not operating legally.

I know what I'd be betting on.

According to Sergii Antonov, a Kiev-based lawyer specialising in the medical and reproductive field, between 2,000 and 2,500 children are born through surrogacy in Ukraine every year, with almost half through BioTexCom.

But as demand grows, Antonov says there are increasing reports of alleged exploitation of both surrogate mothers and intended parents. Demand has surged since 2015 when Thailand, India and Nepal outlawed commercial surrogacy following reports of widespread exploitation of women.

"Commercial surrogacy Ukraine is unregulated and two-thirds of the industry operates illegally," he said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/ukraine-baby-factories-human-cost-surrogacy-180912201251153.html

So Nepal, Thailand and India banned it after widespread complaints of exploitation of women. And now the complaints move to Ukraine

Alina said the conditions for surrogate mothers are terrible. She said BioTexCom put her up in a small apartment 32 weeks into her pregnancy with four other women, where she was forced to share a bed with another surrogate mother.

"We were all very stressed. Most of the women come from small villages and are in hopeless situations," she said. "We spent the first week just lying around, crying. We couldn't eat. This is a typical situation for surrogates." Alina said the supervisor visited the apartment most days to check on the women's lifestyle.

"If we weren't home after 4pm, we could be fined 100 euros. We were also threatened with a fine if any of us openly criticised the company, or directly communicated with the biological parents."Comments in online forums for surrogate mothers also document problems with BioTexCom.

The main baby factory in Ukraine BioTexCom control half the market and churn out over a thousand babies a year. Its exploitation of poor women on a mass scale. They get paid $10k-$12k while the couple pay $40k-$50k for the baby. Thats a hugely profitable operation.

Alrigghtythen

statesaver wrote: »

Ukraine is not a rich western country. People went there to exploit poor women's wombs.

I'm all for personal choice as long as it's not rich people renting poor women's bodies.

How much does the woman have to earn before she is not poor and can choose to be a surrogate?

jam_mac_jam

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How much does the woman have to earn before she is not poor and can choose to be a surrogate?

In most countries no amount of money because it's illegal. Hopefully Ukraine will change their laws like other countries such as Thailand.

Gemma1982

If anything good comes out of covid, I hope that it is that it shines a light on this abhorrent trade in the Ukraine. I’m not holding my breath though - the media seems to have a very definite agenda on this issue.

Portmanteau

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

How much does the woman have to earn before she is not poor and can choose to be a surrogate?

This is a strange question to keep asking. Not sure what the cost of living average is in Ukraine but I suppose once she's making that, and no longer in a position where surrogacy is her only option. If it's something women are happy to do, why isn't it widespread? If she still wants to do it, fair enough, and at least it wouldn't be informed by desperation.

screamer

I think it’s a very selfish thing and I can only imagine how messed up those kids will grow up to be. I understand the basic human desire some people have to procreate but this whole surrogacy/ donor egg/ donor sperm stuff to give parents their dream is going to be those kids nightmare. There’s huge ethical sides to this that is not explored, and it’s going to be a big problem down the line. I feel sorry for the babies and the moment in life when they’re told the truth of their existence.

mikeym

There was a documentary on Virgin Media recently on Surrogate Babies and I wasnt impressed.

Maybe im just too old school but I honestly think the whole surrogacy business is morally wrong.

appledrop

lawred2 wrote: »

The late late show had a seriously warped interview with Rosanna Davidson who did exactly this - went off to Ukraine to buy a surrogate.. I found the whole thing seriously off yet the LLS was all in with the attempt to paint it as a wondrous happening.

I'm not surprised this has happened... treat women and babies as a for profit industry and you're going to get some nasty unintended consequences.

I wonder are they squirming now?

Yep + she openly admitted that she never even bothered to meet the surrogate before the birth. Seriously f$$led up.

jrosen

I think surrogacy is a wonderful thing. I know someone who was a surrogate for her sister. Its such an incredible gift to carry a baby for someone you love.

But I cant help but feel these women are exploited. If they had a good standard of living, a good education and could support themselves how many would choose to be a surrogate? Yes they may willingly enter into the agreement, but the second a woman agrees to carry a baby because she needs the money it should be obvious they are not there because they want to be but more because they need to be.

I watched a documentary some years back and it was heart wrenching and as much as I can empathize to a couple who are struggling to conceive, it shouldn't give them the right to exploit someone less fortunate.

lozenges

I have great sympathy for people struggling with fertility issues. Some people seem to have a really deep rooted desire to have a child and I imagine it's very traumatic to have difficulty with something that seems so normal and easy for many.

Having said that - I really think that sometimes it's simply not possible for people to achieve their dreams. It can be healthier to accept that rather than becoming obsessed with it to the exclusion of all else. Investing all your focus and meaning in a single thing isn't conducive to happiness whether it's a job, a relationship or a child.

I also think that in our very materialistic and consumerist society people have real difficulty with accepting that they can't have something. They want it, so they should be able to have it.

Regarding surrogacy - I think the commercial surrogacy as occurs in Ukraine is unethical. It's not dissimilar to prostitution. Disadvantaged women providing bodily functions in exchange for money. And no, they're not being forced into it, it's their 'choice' but that could be said about many sex workers. Pregnancy and childbirth are not without risk either which should also be borne in mind.

It's a different story if it's a family member or friend who's not doing it out of economic necessity.

appledrop

One of the 'fathers' of the babies was interviewed on rte. He had made it into Ukraine to collect his baby but his wife couldnt make it due to 'work'. He was now stuck there.

Now I'm sorry but wft. Who lets a couple take home a baby from another country when one of them couldnt even be bothered to show up to collect the baby due to work. Doesnt bode well for the babys future.

walshb

Mike3287 wrote: »

Strictly business

Personal feelings

Listen to yourself man!

These girls deserve to live a normal life, this ain't normal

Would you be happy for your daugther who you worked all your life for to do this with her life?

Is that who you would want her to become

A womb for the rich

The daughter you took to preschool holding her hand, the daughter you took to ballet, to basketball training, to a breakfast in a nice restaurant before her first day in college, the daughter you drove to her first interview, walked down the aisle.

Would you want your daughter carrying twins every few years from 18 to 35 because she had no other way to make €5000 a year and looking back on her life at 50 years old thinking what have I done.

You'll probably reply

Life is not fair, it never will be with attitudes like yours.

Business in the sense that the person carrying your child is not related or connected to you in any harmonious way..Stop twisting my words.

It’s surrogacy, for chrissake..

Stop trying to make it out to be more than it is. I know what it is, why it is, and how it is. It’s people desiring something that they cannot achieve themselves. The magnificence of being a parent.

It’s consenting adults working together to bring happiness, joy and dreams to fruition...

It’s beautiful....

Of course, it’s not perfect. Life is not perfect, but these people are coming together to create beauty...

No idea how some people can be so anti it, and aggressive and damning in their condemnation of it..

And this bringing up people’s wealth and money and being “rich,” what had this got to do with it? Can people now not be wee bit successful, monetarily comfortable, and to use that to create beauty and happiness in their lives?

lawred2

walshb wrote: »

Business in the sense that the person carrying your child is not related or connected to you in any harmonious way..Stop twisting my words.

It’s surrogacy, for chrissake..

Stop trying to make it out to be more than it is. I k is what it is, why it is, and how it is. It’s people desiring something that they cannot achieve themselves. The magnificence of being a parent.

It’s consenting adults working together to bring happiness, joy and dreams to fruition...

It’s beautiful....

Of course, it’s not perfect. Life is not perfect, but these people are coming together to create beauty...

No idea how some people can be so anti it, and aggressive and damning in their condemnation of it..

I'm not anti surrogacy.. I'm anti organised crime making money selling surrogates to richer westerners.

Not sure why you keep repainting it as something that it's not.

Beautiful? Really?

Richard Hillman

I think the media are afraid to criticise it in case it becomes more acceptable in future times. You look at the market for it, a couple of media Luvvies like Rosanna Davidson and Georgia Salpa. "Showbiz" reporters don't criticize locals as they need them to fill space with inane stories.

Another large market for these surrogacies are from Same Sex couples. Imagine criticising the process now and it becomes in the norm with same sex couples within 10 years. Your article gets regurgitated, you're tarred as homophobic, right wing etc, well then your mainstream media career is done.

Anybody that has questions over it is thinking to just keep their mouth shut. You it may come back to haunt.

machiavellianme

I would do anything to give the gift of a child to my partner. Sadly, surrogacy is way beyond our means but if I could, I would. Its so easy for others on here to throw stones if they haven't endured the pain of not being able to do something so natural as parent their own child.

blacklilly

walshb wrote: »

It’s consenting adults working together to bring happiness, joy and dreams to fruition...

It’s beautiful....

Of course, it’s not perfect. Life is not perfect, but these people are coming together to create beauty...

No idea how some people can be so anti it, and aggressive and damning in their condemnation of it..

I’ve no idea how someone can’t understand the serious ethical and moral complications of such a transaction. I’ll refer to it as that seeing as you would like to keep it strictly business.

You talk about bringing dreams to fruition.... the only dreams being met are those of the wealthy couple. You’re making it sound like a fairytale, the reality is it couldn’t be further from the truth.

Tell me what is beautiful about women renting their wombs and bodies to produce a human being for an affluent couple/person? Tell me what is beautiful about having a baby taken away from its gestational mother the minute it is born? Tell me what is beautiful about the gestational mother’s anguish and pain having a baby they carried and birthed removed from them?

No one is disputing that some couples go through hell trying to conceive, it does not give anyone the entitlement to put another human through pain.

It’s so easy to turn a blind eye to the pain and suffering this causes when all you see is the end result of a healthy baby in the arms of its parents, living their idyllic life.

appledrop

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I think the media are afraid to criticise it in case it becomes more acceptable in future times. You look at the market for it, a couple of media Luvvies like Rosanna Davidson and Georgia Salpa. "Showbiz" reporters don't criticize locals as they need them to fill space with inane stories.

Another large market for these surrogacies are from Same Sex couples. Imagine criticising the process now and it becomes in the norm with same sex couples within 10 years. Your article gets regurgitated, you're tarred as homophobic, right wing etc, well then your mainstream media career is done.

Anybody that has questions over it is thinking to just keep their mouth shut. You it may come back to haunt.

Kim Kardashian is another one. It's just mind boggling. Why use a surrogate if already have children?

I've no problem with surrogacy in very restricted circumstances if it's a family member of close friend who carries baby. However total stranger no especially when it's a 'business's transaction like in Ukraine.

Really it's the modern day equivalent of mother and baby homes. Sure they all wanted to give up their babies too didnt they?

august12

lawred2 wrote: »

I'm not anti surrogacy.. I'm anti organised crime making money selling surrogates to richer westerners.

Not sure why you keep repainting it as something that it's not.

Beautiful? Really?

So are you saying you would be ok with it if it was regulated??

Mike3287

walshb wrote: »

Business in the sense that the person carrying your child is not related or connected to you in any harmonious way..Stop twisting my words.

It’s surrogacy, for chrissake..

Stop trying to make it out to be more than it is. I know what it is, why it is, and how it is. It’s people desiring something that they cannot achieve themselves. The magnificence of being a parent.

It’s consenting adults working together to bring happiness, joy and dreams to fruition...

It’s beautiful....

Of course, it’s not perfect. Life is not perfect, but these people are coming together to create beauty...

No idea how some people can be so anti it, and aggressive and damning in their condemnation of it..

And this bringing up people’s wealth and money and being “rich,” what had this got to do with it? Can people now not be wee bit successful, monetarily comfortable, and to use that to create beauty and happiness in their lives?

Its beautiful, creating beauty, consenting adults, happiness

Honestly wake up man!

This aint a fairy tale world, a disney movie.

These babies can be bought by anyone, you get that part? Anyone

My wife is half Ukrainian, has heard the horror stories, most citizens there want it banned, its not what Ukrainians want for young women, you getting the picture now?

kaymin

blacklilly wrote: »

Tell me what is beautiful about women renting their wombs and bodies to produce a human being for an affluent couple/person? Tell me what is beautiful about having a baby taken away from its gestational mother the minute it is born? Tell me what is beautiful about the gestational mother’s anguish and pain having a baby they carried and birthed removed from them?

It’s so easy to turn a blind eye to the pain and suffering this causes when all you see is the end result of a healthy baby in the arms of its parents, living their idyllic life.

How many surrogate mothers have you spoken to? How many interviews with surrogate mothers have you viewed? Your assumptions and presumptions are so far from the truth. Can you provide even one example of the anguish and pain of a Ukrainian surrogate mother that you speak about?

walshb

lawred2 wrote: »

I'm not anti surrogacy.. I'm anti organised crime making money selling surrogates to richer westerners.

Not sure why you keep repainting it as something that it's not.

Beautiful? Really?

I would also be anti organised crime...

Ok, so let us say that no organized crime was involved in this. What would you think of it?

And also, you targeted Rosanna here. You think she went into this situation knowing that organized crime was involved? Was there organized crime involved in her situation?

Where is all this evidence that surrogacy in Ukraine are criminal arrangements?

And egg donation. Ireland use Ukraine as a partner here.....is this a criminal arrangement? Are our hospitals and country engaging in criminal behavior with Ukraine?

And yes, allowing a woman (who desires to be a mother) to become a mother via surrogacy is beautiful.....The vast majority of women who go down the surrogacy route have to....it's there only remaining hope of the joy of motherhood.....to me, that is beautiful.

walshb

Mike3287 wrote: »

Its beautiful, creating beauty, consenting adults, happiness

Honestly wake up man!

This aint a fairy tale world, a disney movie.

These babies can be bought by anyone, you get that part? Anyone

My wife is half Ukrainian, has heard the horror stories, most citizens there want it banned, its not what Ukrainians want for young women, you getting the picture now?

I think we have our wires crossed..

Babies can be bought by “anyone?”

What are you referring to here? I am talking about a woman needing to use a surrogate for the delivery of a baby. The case of Rosanna....for example..

lozenges

walshb wrote: »

I would also be anti organised crime...

Ok, so let us say that no organized crime was involved in this. What would you think of it?

And also, you targeted Rosanna here. You think she went into this situation knowing that organized crime was involved? Was there organized crime involved in her situation?

Where is all this evidence that surrogacy in Ukraine are criminal arrangements?

And egg donation. Ireland use Ukraine as a partner here.....is this a criminal arrangement? Are our hospitals and country engaging in criminal behavior with Ukraine?

What happens if the child has a disability and the prospective 'parents' decide they don't want it anymore?

What if the baby is born premature and needs (expensive) ICU care or surgery? Who pays? What if the prospective 'parents' can't afford this?

What happens if the biological mother suffers a complication of childbirth? Does she get compensated do you think? What if she dies as a result of complications in childbirth, do you think her family should get anything?

jam_mac_jam

lozenges wrote: »

What happens if the child has a disability and the prospective 'parents' decide they don't want it anymore?

It was banned in Thailand because a couple decided they didn't want a baby with downs syndrome.

lozenges

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

It was banned in Thailand because a couple decided they didn't want a baby with downs syndrome.

Yeah. I don't know all the answers to the questions I'm posing to that poster, although I was aware of babies being abandoned if they were disabled. I'm just trying to point out to him that it's not as 'beautiful' and 'magnificent' a proceeding as he likes to think.

lawred2

walshb wrote: »

I would also be anti organised crime...

Ok, so let us say that no organized crime was involved in this. What would you think of it?

And also, you targeted Rosanna here. You think she went into this situation knowing that organized crime was involved? Was there organized crime involved in her situation?

Where is all this evidence that surrogacy in Ukraine are criminal arrangements?

And egg donation. Ireland use Ukraine as a partner here.....is this a criminal arrangement? Are our hospitals and country engaging in criminal behavior with Ukraine?

And yes, allowing a woman (who desires to be a mother) to become a mother via surrogacy is beautiful.....The vast majority of women who go down the surrogacy route have to....it's there only remaining hope of the joy of motherhood.....to me, that is beautiful.

I don't care whether they were aware or not or whether they were wittingly or unwittingly engaging with organised crime.. that's an individual case.

But the fact of the matter is the collective of individual cases seeking out surrogates through such organisations creates a market in this country. A market which latest research indicates is controlled in the main by organised crime entities. In a country that has known issues with organised crime.

It is a fact that they didn't find an altruistic Ukranian lady willing to do this for expenses alone.. It is a fact that they engaged a company who sourced a surrogate for them. And paid the organisation directly.

I can't understand how you're struggling with this.

Is everyone doing this just going to internalize their own case and presume that they were at least dealing with a legit operation? It is simply not possible for everyone to be engaging legit operations is it?

walshb

lawred2 wrote: »

I don't care whether they were aware or not or whether they were wittingly or unwittingly engaging with organised crime.. that's an individual case.

But the fact of the matter is the collective of individual cases seeking out surrogates through such organisations creates a market in this country. A market which latest research indicates is controlled in the main by organised crime entities. In a country that has known issues with organised crime.

It is a fact that they didn't find an altruistic Ukranian lady willing to do this for expenses alone.. It is a fact that they engaged a company who sourced a surrogate for them. And paid the organisation directly.

I can't understand how you're struggling with this.

Is everyone doing this just going to internalize their own case and presume that they were at least dealing with a legit operation? It is simply not possible for everyone to be engaging legit operations is it?

You are the one struggling,

Where can you point out that this country and our women are engaging in illegal activities surrounding the use of surrogacy?

It's not a perfect system. Life is not a perfect system....

But until you show me clear evidence of crimes being committed here, or of cases of women being forced against their will to carry children, then you are just waffling with an anti surrogacy agenda. Or at least anti foreign surrogacy agenda....

walshb

lozenges wrote: »

What happens if the child has a disability and the prospective 'parents' decide they don't want it anymore?

What if the baby is born premature and needs (expensive) ICU care or surgery? Who pays? What if the prospective 'parents' can't afford this?

What happens if the biological mother suffers a complication of childbirth? Does she get compensated do you think? What if she dies as a result of complications in childbirth, do you think her family should get anything?

What if, what if, what if....

You are simply asking a load of questions.......

Life is full of what ifs......

Surrogacy is not illegal.....it happens. And what ifs will always be present..

jam_mac_jam

walshb wrote: »

What if, what if, what if....

You are simply asking a load of questions.......

Life is full of what ifs......

Surrogacy is not illegal.....

Have you any actual proof that women here are breaking the law by using surrogacy?

It is illegal in Ireland, that's why they go to Ukraine. If it was legal in Ireland they would do it here.

It is not legal in most European countries.

jam_mac_jam

kaymin wrote: »

How many surrogate mothers have you spoken to? How many interviews with surrogate mothers have you viewed? Your assumptions and presumptions are so far from the truth. Can you provide even one example of the anguish and pain of a Ukrainian surrogate mother that you speak about?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/09/27/inenglish/1538051520_476218.html%3foutputType=amp