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Surrogate babies stranded in Ukraine

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    #122
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    machiavellianme wrote: »
    I would do anything to give the gift of a child to my partner. Sadly, surrogacy is way beyond our means but if I could, I would. Its so easy for others on here to throw stones if they haven't endured the pain of not being able to do something so natural as parent their own child.


    While I do feel sympathy at your situation - i've friends in a similar situation -people are frequently dealt a bad hand in life, it doesn't mean you should resolve those issue by any means necessary.


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    #123
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,984 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    She had 14 miscarriages over the course of 4 years prior to going down the surrogacy route, you forgot that bit in your little synopsis.
    There is also no evidence that she used one of these baby farms, to be honest I would imagine someone with her profile would completely avoid that sort of set up because the backlash if it was every made public would destroy her reputation.
    They would have the money & means to do this without taking advantage of impoverished women.

    Fertility issues effect 1 in 6 Irish couples, I don’t agree with these ‘rent a womb’ type corporations but the laws and options regarding adoption in this country make it so difficult for couples to go down that route that it’s pretty much non existent. This isn’t an uncommon problem, unfortunately.

    I think it’s just sad all round, for all involved.

    If nature repeatedly says to someone "hey you, outta the gene pool" then society should respect that.

    Sure its dreadfully sad.

    But if you really are driven to care for children, there are plenty of disabled children who need forever homes. Plenty of kids who need foster care.


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    #124
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    walshb wrote: »
    What if, what if, what if....

    You are simply asking a load of questions.......

    Life is full of what ifs......

    Surrogacy is not illegal.....it happens. And what ifs will always be present..

    No, it's not illegal in Ireland. So if it's so great why are Irish women not lining up to be surrogates?

    You also haven't answered any of my questions. The 'what ifs' in life deserve due consideration. Only fools enter into something without considering the potential consequences.

    A couple feeling that they are suffering doesn't give them the right to fix that by causing suffering to another.
    It's their issue, if it's really causing them that degree of pain then they should go to therapy. Not ruin someone else's life for what are essentially selfish reasons.


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    #125
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 56,343 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    lozenges wrote: »

    A couple feeling that they are suffering doesn't give them the right to fix that by causing suffering to another.
    It's their issue, if it's really causing them that degree of pain then they should go to therapy. Not ruin someone else's life for what are essentially selfish reasons.

    Ok, so where are you able to show Irish women who are causing suffering to others?

    All this focusing on the negative, and implying that there is illegality and coercion and criminality.....

    I'd like to be shown this......


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    #126
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,401 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    walshb wrote: »
    You are the one struggling,

    Where can you point out that this country and our women are engaging in illegal activities surrounding the use of surrogacy?

    It's not a perfect system. Life is not a perfect system....

    But until you show me clear evidence of crimes being committed here, or of cases of women being forced against their will to carry children, then you are just waffling with an anti surrogacy agenda. Or at least anti foreign surrogacy agenda....

    internalize it is then


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    #127
    lozenges
    Registered Users Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    walshb wrote: »
    Ok, so where are you able to show Irish women who are causing suffering to others?

    All this focusing on the negative, and implying that there is illegality and coercion and criminality.....

    I'd like to be shown this......

    I'm actually not implying that it's illegal. I'm implying that it's exploitation, because only women in poor countries are engaging in it, and in developed countries where it's not illegal (Ireland) you don't find any women choosing to do it. Which implies that the women doing it are doing so out of desperation.

    As for suffering - as another poster pointed out, it was made illegal in Thailand because the child had downs syndrome and the 'parents' decided they didn't want it. How would you anticipate the life of the biological mother turned out in that scenario?

    I would add that the UN has stated that commercial surrogacy 'amounts to the sale of children' and furthermore that having a child is 'not a human right.'

    https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22763&LangID=E


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    #128
    jam_mac_jam
    Registered Users Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    walshb wrote: »
    Ok, so where are you able to show Irish women who are causing suffering to others?

    All this focusing on the negative, and implying that there is illegality and coercion and criminality.....

    I'd like to be shown this......

    There is an article on the first page of this thread outlining some of the issues with it. So you dont even have to google to be shown suffering.

    An article from al zajera a couple of pages back and I have posted an article above from a Spanish newspaper.

    Would you like someone to read them to you?


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    #129
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,611 ✭✭✭Treppen


    mariaalice wrote: »
    If someone's sister did it for her sister could not conceive a baby, would there be any problem with that?

    That's not what's happening, but nice try.


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    #130
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    It was banned in Thailand because a couple decided they didn't want a baby with downs syndrome.


    The surrogate was carrying boy-girl twins, and when the scan showed that the boy twin had DS, the couple tried to insist on selective termination - something that was incompatible with the surrogates religious beliefs. She opted instead to raise him herself since the biological father and his wife didn't want him.



    Not only that, but the father is a convicted sex offender, convicted of molesting two girls (7 &10 years old) who is not allowed to be alone with the girl twin that they did bring back to Australia with them.


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    #131
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    If nature repeatedly says to someone "hey you, outta the gene pool" then society should respect that.

    Sure its dreadfully sad.

    But if you really are driven to care for children, there are plenty of disabled children who need forever homes. Plenty of kids who need foster care.

    This is why all civilized people's still practice infant exposure and leave things in the hands of nature. It's is wrong to go against natures laws, sure next thing we'll all be injecting ourselves with bleach instead of 100% natural organic vaccines.

    Would you ever cop on, all modern medicines goes against nature.


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    #132
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    If nature repeatedly says to someone "hey you, outta the gene pool" then society should respect that.
    What if nature says "hey you, get into the gene pool even though it doesn't sit with your plans"? should society respect that?


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    #133
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    What if nature says "hey₩ you, get into the gene pool even though it doesn't sit with your plans"? should society respect that?
    No we just abort those. In those circumstances we're not too worried about what nature intended.


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    #134
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    lozenges wrote: »
    I'm actually not implying that it's illegal. I'm implying that it's exploitation, because only women in poor countries are engaging in it, and in developed countries where it's not illegal (Ireland) you don't find any women choosing to do it. Which implies that the women doing it are doing so out of desperation.

    American is one of the premier destinations for Commercial Surrogacy. Army wife's who already have families are apparently making great use of it.


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    #135
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    No we just abort those. In those circumstances we're not too worried about what nature intended.

    and where is this generalization coming from ?
    why not calling it by name: these ppl are selfishly thinking about pro-creating their genes (messed up or not), when there are millions of kids needing a family on other continents ...
    - why not always adopt instead of, would an adopted child lower their status, or what ?


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    #136
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    mvl wrote: »
    and where is this generalization coming from ?
    why not calling it by name: these ppl are selfishly thinking about pro-creating their genes (messed up or not), when there are millions of kids needing a family on other continents ...
    - why not always adopt instead of, would an adopted child lower their status, or what ?

    How many kids have you adopted?

    If you give birth why didnt you adopt instead?
    If you dont have children why havent you adopted?

    Is it because an adopted child would lower your status?


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    #137
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    mvl wrote: »
    and where is this generalization coming from ?
    why not calling it by name: these ppl are selfishly thinking about pro-creating their genes (messed up or not), when there are millions of kids needing a family on other continents ...
    - why not always adopt instead of, would an adopted child lower their status, or what ?

    Because domestic adoption in Ireland is non existent, fostering to adopt can is an extremely lengthy emotionally taxing endeavour that statistically doesn’t work out more often than it does, and intentional adoption is no longer an option thanks to The Hague convention.
    New laws mean this doesn’t happen any more.

    Again, not necessarily condoning baby factories but the lack of options for couples who are struggling to conceive here must be acknowledged.

    Very easy to say ‘it’s not what nature is intending’ when speaking generally, try telling that to a heartbroken couple after experiencing multiple losses. It’s devastating for them.


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    #138
    Iscreamkone
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Iscreamkone


    If it was the only method I had of having a child... I would consider it.
    As I would IVF etc etc
    If some people think differently, then good luck to you too


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    #139
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    How many kids have you adopted?

    If you give birth why didnt you adopt instead?
    If you dont have children why havent you adopted?

    Is it because an adopted child would lower your status?


    my personal motherhood experience is my own business.

    - don't feel like feeding the trolls.


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    #140
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    mvl wrote: »
    my personal motherhood experience is my own business.

    - don't feel like feeding the trolls.

    So bottom line is you're not all that concerned about all the children waiting for adoption.


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    #141
    Portmanteau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Portmanteau


    Silly loaded questions and "so what you're saying is" achieve nothing.

    Obviously all they're saying is that surely for those who can't conceive, adoption makes more sense than surrogacy.


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    #142
    Alrigghtythen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,365 ✭✭✭Alrigghtythen


    Portmanteau wrote: »
    Silly loaded questions and "so what you're saying is" achieve nothing.

    Obviously all they're saying is that surely for those who can't conceive, adoption makes more sense than surrogacy.

    They had some sort of faux concern about all the children waiting to be adopted.


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    #143
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Portmanteau wrote: »
    Silly loaded questions and "so what you're saying is" achieve nothing.

    Obviously all they're saying is that surely for those who can't conceive, adoption makes more sense than surrogacy.

    You just went right a head an didn't read the other posts above highlighting adoption really isn't an option in Ireland.


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    #144
    osarusan
    Registered Users Posts: 16,642 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Don't really have an issue with surrogacy as long as it can be done without exploitation.

    There are certainly some examples of where it went wrong and caused suffering but that doesn't mean that this is always the case.

    "What nature intended" is a completely empty argument.


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    #145
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    From
    http://rightnow.org.au/opinion-3/surrogate-babies-come-surrogacy-human-rights-violation/
    "Surrogacy is a clear human rights violation. It is a practice of exploitation that violates a number of UN conventions and other international treaties. For instance, surrogacy can be likened to slavery, which Article 1 of the United Nations Slavery Convention defines as ‘the status or condition of a person over whom any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership are exercised.’"
    Manion wrote: »
    You just went right a head an didn't read the other posts above highlighting adoption really isn't an option in Ireland.
    Actually, I would want to know more about this: i've seen good few irish families from my workplace adopting children from abroad - how does it work for them ? they are not same race (as the parents), but they are well loved children ... so what do you mean by adoption not being an option here ?


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    #146
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    mvl wrote: »

    Actually, I would want to know more about this: i've seen good few irish families from my workplace adopting children from abroad - how does it work for them ? they are not same race (as the parents), but they are well loved children ... so what do you mean by adoption not being an option here ?

    It's literally explained right above what situation is in Ireland with regards international adoption.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/adoption_and_fostering/intercountry_adoption.html

    I doubt there are "a good few Irish families" in your workplace if you have no understanding of how challenging it is, let alone international adoption.


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    #147
    Portmanteau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Portmanteau


    Alrigghtythen wrote: »
    They had some sort of faux concern about all the children waiting to be adopted.
    How do you know it's faux?
    Manion wrote: »
    You just went right a head an didn't read the other posts above highlighting adoption really isn't an option in Ireland.
    You mean mvl? I only clarified what I thought they were saying due to quite a leap being made.


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    #148
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Manion wrote: »
    It's literally explained right above what situation is in Ireland with regards international adoption.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/adoption_and_fostering/intercountry_adoption.html

    I doubt there are "a good few Irish families" in your workplace if you have no understanding of how challenging it is, let alone international adoption.


    well, you can express your doubts of course - what i read on that page is in line with what i am expecting: it is allowed, and it is possible, so it is an option imo.

    - I know families who've adopted multiple children actually, so they've been through this process few times each ...


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    #149
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    mvl wrote: »
    well, you can express your doubts of course - what i read on that page is in line with what i am expecting: it is allowed, and it is possible, so it is an option imo.

    - I know families who've adopted multiple children actually, so they've been through this process few times each ...

    Sure you do.


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    #150
    mvl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    published numbers from here then, 5k children internationally adopted in Ireland from 1991 up to now https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/nearly-5-000-children-adopted-by-parents-in-ireland-since-1991-1.4134214
    - if ppl don't like the state of current adoption law, I am sure there are ways to trigger a change - would be happy to sign a petition.
    Manion wrote: »
    Sure you do.
    whatever!


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    #151
    kaymin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭kaymin


    jam_mac_jam wrote: »
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/09/27/inenglish/1538051520_476218.html%3foutputType=amp

    And how does that article answer?:
    'How many surrogate mothers have you spoken to? How many interviews with surrogate mothers have you viewed? Your assumptions and presumptions are so far from the truth. Can you provide even one example of the anguish and pain of a Ukrainian surrogate mother that you speak about?'

    And are you Blacklilly?


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