Surrogate babies stranded in Ukraine

Third_Echelon

Tea drinker wrote: »

Welcome to boards! Meh it wasn't always this bad, and to be honest it's more a societal issue than boardsie issue.. The media tell them xyz is bad and you are a trump/ supporter / racist if you diverge. There are quite well defined lines people are happy to bash others once they cross, the moral high ground is retreated to at the start of arguments rather than at the end.

Their choice to abort, but not their choice to conceive.
Surrogates bad, 18 yo prostitution perfectly legal in a lot of EU.
Paying people for their womb bad, but banging kids out for childers allowance good.

Yeah, I've been around these boards for quite a while. I pine for the old days of the early 2000s. Let's make boards great again! Anyone?!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well, you’ve no doubt read the opening post, same as I did, where children are currently abandoned in Ukraine and rendered ‘Stateless’ as a consequence of their current circumstances, through no fault of their own. They aren’t the responsibility of Ukraine, they are the responsibility of their intended parents in other countries.

In Ireland's case, the child is an Irish citizen upon birth as the Father for example is Irish. The biological mother is too, but as you mentioned, Ireland may only recognise the birth mother as 'the mother'. Either way the child is Irish via the father, therefore not 'stateless'?!

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

If they were waiting to be picked up for adoption, they still be stranded in the Ukraine. Theres no planes flying.

I think we’re all aware of that. Not really the point though, is it? I’m not sure what your point actually is though. Children who are put up for adoption are still the responsibility of the Ukrainian State, whereas children conceived by gestational surrogacy, are not.

Ukraine are not a signatory to The Hague Convention either, so if a married couple chose adoption over surrogacy, that option is less restricted than if they wished to adopt a child or children from countries which are signatories to The Hague Convention.

Again though, both adoption and surrogacy are separate and distinct concepts which aren’t actually comparable in any meaningful way other than the only thing they have in common is people who wish to become parents.

mvl

Third_Echelon wrote: »

In Ireland's case, the child is an Irish citizen upon birth as the Father for example is Irish. The biological mother is too, but as you mentioned, Ireland may only recognise the birth mother as 'the mother'. Either way the child is Irish via the father, therefore not 'stateless'?!

Seeing here an example of surrogacy where two irish sisters were involved, one living abroad. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12283296
What got my attention is that the baby gets kiwi passport upon birth, then an "adoption" process was meant to be used
"Instead, once settled back into their home country, they would have a paternity test carried out on the hoped-for baby, before then being able to apply to adopt the child under Irish law."
Still not sure how much I can trust a source from nzherald - but shows to me the process of interstate surrogacy is not simple, and may even end up with an adoption - who would have thought ?!

lozenges

SusieBlue wrote: »

I have said many times over I disagree with the exploitation of vulnerable women in any circumstances but what I can’t stand is this attitude that anyone who is having fertility issues should just get over themselves, when they would be first in the queue if they ever needed treatment for an illness. They are wouldn’t just roll over and wait to die.
There are also multiple posts bashing Rosanna Davison when there’s no evidence whatsoever that she exploited anyone.

I think some of the posts in that regard, and also in regards to ‘natural selection’ were quite nasty & insensitive in a country where 1 in 6 will have these issues.

There are also ethical concerns with IVF which is why a lot of devout Christians won’t consider it, the additional fertilised eggs that aren’t implanted simply get destroyed. But no one cares about that.

The fact that adoption was offered up more than once as a practical alternative, when again, adoption is near impossible, shows how little people really care or really know about this issue.

If we had legislation in this country to allow for agreements within Ireland that suit all parties, and protect the surrogate, the parents and the baby, we wouldn’t have desperate people going to the Ukraine to these baby factories in the first place.
And again, I’m not condoning it, but when options are so limited and scarce here is it really any surprise so many go abroad?

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here, except the last paragraph. Surrogacy isn't illegal in Ireland. While there definitely is an urgent need for the assisted reproduction legislation in order to reflect the (very complicated) medical possibilities, I'm not convinced that Ireland will be very keen to legislate away rights that the surrogate has to the child as in the US. I'm also not at all sure that if arrangements were in place to allow the intended parents easily assume legal responsibility for the child that surrogacy would become more popular here. I just can't see many women wanting to do it. Maybe I'm wrong though.

One eyed Jack

Third_Echelon wrote: »

In Ireland's case, the child is an Irish citizen upon birth as the Father for example is Irish. The biological mother is too, but as you mentioned, Ireland may only recognise the birth mother as 'the mother'. Either way the child is Irish via the father, therefore not 'stateless'?!

It’s not as simple as that either -


Although exiting the US with a baby is fairly straight forward, the overall costs involved in the surrogacy process are prohibitive, running at well over €100,000, which is why couples look to countries such as the Ukraine where it could cost less than half that. But while the birth certificate issued there will also list the commissioning couple as parents, the child is not regarded as a Ukrainian citizen, so is temporarily “stateless”.

However, a child born to an Irish citizen anywhere in the world is entitled to Irish citizenship – provided that parent provides proof of parentage. And in the case of surrogacy, only the father can do that, to obtain an emergency travel certificate to get the baby home to Ireland.

“As soon as the child is born,” says Horan, “you will have to have your solicitor on standby to make sure all of the relevant papers are ready to be signed”.

“An interpreter is needed to translate for the surrogate mother and a foreign legal adviser to make sure she understands what she is signing.”

To get an emergency travel certificate, the commissioning father will have to prove he is the father. An Irish embassy official attends DNA testing in order to do this. He also needs to have the surrogate mother’s consent – and, if she is married, her husband’s.

The commissioning father, Horan adds, also has to provide undertakings to the Irish authorities that he will inform the HSE two days after he gets back to Ireland that he has brought the child into the State, and apply for a declaration of parentage and guardianship within 10 days.


How surrogacy works – or doesn’t – in Ireland

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I think we’re all aware of that. Not really the point though, is it? I’m not sure what your point actually is though. Children who are put up for adoption are still the responsibility of the Ukrainian State, whereas children conceived by gestational surrogacy, are not.

Ukraine are not a signatory to The Hague Convention either, so if a married couple chose adoption over surrogacy, that option is less restricted than if they wished to adopt a child or children from countries which are signatories to The Hague Convention.

Again though, both adoption and surrogacy are separate and distinct concepts which aren’t actually comparable in any meaningful way other than the only thing they have in common is people who wish to become parents.

What do you mean by this then?

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well, you’ve no doubt read the opening post, same as I did, where children are currently abandoned in Ukraine and rendered ‘Stateless’ as a consequence of their current circumstances, through no fault of their own.parents.

If you know that planes aren't flying, what's the other current circumstances that's has left them abondaned and stateless (which as another poster pointed out is not correct)

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

What do you mean by this then?

If you know that planes aren't flying, what's the other current circumstances that's has left them abondaned and stateless (which as another poster pointed out is not correct)

Other circumstances include intended parents changing their minds (for whatever their reasons are) and choosing not to bring the children from Ukraine, and with regard to the other posters point, I’ve already pointed out that while Ukraine law regards the intended parents as the children’s parents, there are legal requirements which must be fulfilled before the child is regarded as an Irish citizen. Providing those legal requirements are fulfilled, only then is the child regarded as an Irish citizen. Until then, the child or children are ‘Stateless’, being neither a citizen of Ukraine, nor the intended parents country.

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Other circumstances include intended parents changing their minds (for whatever their reasons are) and choosing not to bring the children from Ukraine, and with regard to the other posters point, I’ve already pointed out that while Ukraine law regards the intended parents as the children’s parents, there are legal requirements which must be fulfilled before the child is regarded as an Irish citizen. Providing those legal requirements are fulfilled, only then is the child regarded as an Irish citizen. Until then, the child or children are ‘Stateless’, being neither a citizen of Ukraine, nor the intended parents country.

Of the children who where born by surrogacy waiting to be picked up at the moment, how many are there because the parents changed their minds and how many are there because travel is restricted?

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Of the children who where born by surrogacy waiting to be picked up at the moment, how many are there because the parents changed their minds and how many are there because travel is restricted?

I have no idea why you think I could possibly know the answer to that question.

What’s your point in asking the question anyway?

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I have no idea why you think I could possibly know the answer to that question.

What’s your point in asking the question anyway?

Oh I thought you knew what you were talking about

Apologies

Alrigghtythen

The intended parents of a child born through surrogacy are considered to be biological parents from the moment of conception, and they are specifically named as biological parents in the birth certificate without any mentioning of the surrogate mother. Importantly the gestational surrogate has no legal claim over the child. Intended parents do not have full legal protection if the surrogate has a genetic link to the child (Traditional surrogacy).

There are no legal limits on payments to surrogates.

No specific permission from any regulatory body is required, however written informed consent of all parties (intended parents and surrogate) participating in the surrogacy program is mandatory.

https://surrogacysupport.ie/ukraine/

Alrigghtythen

The intended parents of a child born through surrogacy are considered to be biological parents from the moment of conception, and they are specifically named as biological parents in the birth certificate without any mentioning of the surrogate mother. Importantly the gestational surrogate has no legal claim over the child. Intended parents do not have full legal protection if the surrogate has a genetic link to the child (Traditional surrogacy).

There are no legal limits on payments to surrogates.

No specific permission from any regulatory body is required, however written informed consent of all parties (intended parents and surrogate) participating in the surrogacy program is mandatory.


https://surrogacysupport.ie/ukraine/

mvl

- you know, there is an option to delete duplicate posts !

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-47826356
- guess the financials involved in this industry explain why only gestational surrogacy is discussed - while traditional surrogacy, which is more ethical from my point of view, seems to be forgotten about.

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Oh I thought you knew what you were talking about

Apologies

I know what I’m talking about, I just don’t know what your point is, and your subsequent posts don’t make your point any clearer. I’ve been very clear with you in saying that don’t know how many children in Ukraine have been abandoned as a result of intended parents changing their minds.

When intended parents do change their minds, then the child is abandoned. How often do intended parents change their minds? I don’t know the answer to that question either, but according to one source, intended parents are statistically more likely to change their minds than the surrogate mother -


In the surrogacy world, one of the worst case scenarios for intended parents is that the surrogate will change her mind and try to keep the baby. Although statistically, it is actually more likely that the intended parents will change their mind, and try to abandon the baby. Andrew Vorzimer, a Los Angeles-based assisted reproductive technology (ART) law specialist, has been keeping track since 1979. Of over 148,000 surrogate deliveries, 13 gestational surrogates and 25 traditional surrogates have sought to change their minds. By contrast, 89 intended parents have sought to change their minds.


Surrogate Tries To Keep Baby, Court Doesn’t Care About Genetics | Above the Law

Alrigghtythen

mvl wrote: »

- you know, there is an option to delete duplicate posts !

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-47826356
- guess the financials involved in this industry explain why only gestational surrogacy is discussed - while traditional surrogacy, which is more ethical from my point of view, seems to be forgotten about.

Why do you think It's more ethical to have a baby with the surrogates DNA?



It's expensive alright.



https://www.newstalk.com/news/isnt-even-post-going-ukraine-challenges-surrogacy-covid-19-crisis-1017759

If you go through surrogacy in the Ukraine, it would be much cheaper in comparison to the US or Canada - in the US you’re talking about €120,000 minimum to have a baby… Ukraine is around €50,000… it was much cheaper, but of course it’s going up because there’s a huge, huge demand for it.

“For the Ukraine… you have to be married, heterosexual, and use the male [parent’s] sperm. A DNA test has to be done in the Ukraine to establish that link - [then] it is an Irish baby that comes home on an Irish emergency travel document.

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I know what I’m talking about, I just don’t know what your point is, and your subsequent posts don’t make your point any clearer. I’ve been very clear with you in saying that don’t know how many children in Ukraine have been abandoned as a result of intended parents changing their minds.

When intended parents do change their minds, then the child is abandoned. How often do intended parents change their minds? I don’t know the answer to that question either, but according to one source, intended parents are statistically more likely to change their minds than the surrogate mother -


In the surrogacy world, one of the worst case scenarios for intended parents is that the surrogate will change her mind and try to keep the baby. Although statistically, it is actually more likely that the intended parents will change their mind, and try to abandon the baby. Andrew Vorzimer, a Los Angeles-based assisted reproductive technology (ART) law specialist, has been keeping track since 1979. Of over 148,000 surrogate deliveries, 13 gestational surrogates and 25 traditional surrogates have sought to change their minds. By contrast, 89 intended parents have sought to change their minds.


Surrogate Tries To Keep Baby, Court Doesn’t Care About Genetics | Above the Law

What's your point?

The article linked doesnt mention the ukraine. It's about america and the uk

Also how often do parents who naturally conceive change their minds to compare? What's the rate of abortions, adoption and absentee parents and how does this compare to the children born by surrogacy?

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

What's your point?

The article linked doesnt mention the ukraine. It's about america and the uk

Also how often do parents who naturally conceive change their minds to compare? What's the rate of abortions, adoption and absentee parents and how does this compare to the children born by surrogacy?

My point was simply that apart from current circumstances (that being that travel to Ukraine is currently being prevented at the moment), there are other circumstances in which children born as a result of surrogacy in Ukraine, are abandoned and rendered Stateless when intended parents change their minds and choose not to move forward with the process of becoming parents to a particular child or children.

The article doesn’t mention Ukraine, but the point of it was me being mindful of any questions as to why parents upon having paid for a surrogacy service, would then change their minds. I know only a handful of parents who have availed of surrogacy, and of those even fewer would admit that they changed their minds, so I wouldn’t even hazard a guess as to how many intended parents actually do change their minds or what their reasons actually are.

I’ve no idea how parents who conceive naturally compare to parents who avail of surrogacy services, much less the rate of adoption, abortion or absentee parents among people who conceive naturally, or among those people who avail of surrogacy services. I’ve never perceived it in terms of a competition though or anyone having to prove themselves as parents before they actually become parents.

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

My point was simply that apart from current circumstances (that being that travel to Ukraine is currently being prevented at the moment), there are other circumstances in which children born as a result of surrogacy in Ukraine, are abandoned and rendered Stateless when intended parents change their minds and choose not to move forward with the process of becoming parents to a particular child or children.

The article doesn’t mention Ukraine, but the point of it was me being mindful of any questions as to why parents upon having paid for a surrogacy service, would then change their minds. I know only a handful of parents who have availed of surrogacy, and of those even fewer would admit that they changed their minds, so I wouldn’t even hazard a guess as to how many intended parents actually do change their minds or what their reasons actually are.

I’ve no idea how parents who conceive naturally compare to parents who avail of surrogacy services, much less the rate of adoption, abortion or absentee parents among people who conceive naturally, or among those people who avail of surrogacy services. I’ve never perceived it in terms of a competition in though or anyone having to prove themselves as parents before they actually become parents.

People who concieve naturally are more likely to reject their own children. To protect the children we probably should look at restricting those that have rejected their child from having anymore .

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

People who concieve naturally are more likely to reject their own children. To protect the children we probably should look at restricting those that have rejected their child from having anymore .

I’ll take your word for it. However that’s a completely separate issue to the issues involved in surrogacy.

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’ll take your word for it. However that’s a completely separate issue to the issues involved in surrogacy.

Same issue. People making babies and then rejecting them.

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Same issue. People making babies and then rejecting them.

I’m not sure whether you’re arguing in favour of surrogacy, or against it, in making that point.

I would see it as making the same point I made against surrogacy, but perhaps you intend it differently?

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m not sure whether you’re arguing in favour of surrogacy, or against it, in making that point.

I would see it as making the same point I made against surrogacy, but perhaps you intend it differently?

Right so not that concern about rejected children if your not willing to address the main cohort who reject their children. Is it not fashionable to care about rejected children closer to home?

My body my choice as long as it's your rules

kaymin

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You asked for one example of pain and anguish. The article gives more then one. That's how it answers your question.

Clearly no. I am not Blacklilly. Maybe if you read it you would see how it answers the question.

The article you quote: https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2018/09/27/inenglish/1538051520_476218.html
gives one example of a surrogate who suffered a miscarriage for which she was compensated by the clinic in accordance with the agreement they both signed. She proceeded to become a surrogate again with another clinic which she was very happy with.

The other surrogate mentioned in the article gave her own child up for adoption a number of years ago - this had nothing to do with surrogacy.

So again, where's the pain and anguish that all of these surrogate mothers are suffering? There's 2500 each year yet you're clutching at straws to find even one to support your pre-conceived views

mvl

Just pause for a while, as not everybody is Irish here - what is meant when bringing up rejected children ? I am used with the term abandoned children - is that what you mean ?

While it is a real issue, it is not as common I thought.
From link:

"Primary causes of child abandonment were found to be poverty or financial hardship, being a single parent, post-natal depression, mental illness and substance misuse, a lack of sexual health education, poor knowledge regarding family planning, restrictions regarding access to abortion, the child having some form of disability, the child being HIV positive, pregnancy as a result of rape or abuse." .

Guess some of the the mental health reasons can only be addressed after the fact , while some reasons are preventable.
- also, there is no mention of Ireland in the article linked above, only other EU countries are listed - so what are really the numbers we're talking about in IRL today ?

Alrigghtythen

mvl wrote: »

Just pause for a while, as not everybody is Irish here - what is meant when bringing up rejected children ? I am used with the term abandoned children - is that what you mean ?

While it is a real issue, it is not as common I thought.
From link:

"Primary causes of child abandonment were found to be poverty or financial hardship, being a single parent, post-natal depression, mental illness and substance misuse, a lack of sexual health education, poor knowledge regarding family planning, restrictions regarding access to abortion, the child having some form of disability, the child being HIV positive, pregnancy as a result of rape or abuse." .

Guess some of the the mental health reasons can only be addressed after the fact , while some reasons are preventable.
- also, there is no mention of Ireland in the article linked above, only other EU countries are listed.

Abandonment, giving them up for adoption, aborting them, having no involvement in thier lives etc.

For every single parent family not co-parenting there is a person who rejected thier child.

kaymin

Video of Ukrainian surrogate mothers explaining why they chose to become surrogates and their experience of the process:

https://biotexcom.com/surrogate-mothers-from-the-biotexcom-clinic/

osarusan

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Also, whats to stop paedophiles having children bred to order:

Jaysus.

mvl

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Why do you think It's more ethical to have a baby with the surrogates DNA?

This is my opinion: it can enable a multi-parent setup where the surrogate mother or father donor has proper rights by default. Besides, it doesn't need extra medical procedures on the mother's side, such as egg harvesting; it is more economical, and so egalitarian (to promote survival of the fittest rather than survival of the richest)

One eyed Jack

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

Right so not that concern about rejected children if your not willing to address the main cohort who reject their children. Is it not fashionable to care about rejected children closer to home?

My body my choice as long as it's your rules

I don’t know, whether something is or isn’t fashionable is of no consequence to me one way or another, and that includes concerns for addressing what you claim is the main cohort who reject their children.

That’s not to say I don’t care about children who are abandoned, I just don’t seek as you do to conflate the issues involved in surrogacy, adoption, abortion and abandonment, in order to draw attention away from what we’re discussing here which is issues relating to surrogacy. You appear to be trying to argue that because children in other circumstances are abandoned, it should be acceptable to abandon children who are born as a result of a surrogacy arrangement. That’s not the compelling argument for surrogacy you think it is.

Already addressed the ‘my body, my choice’ nonsense btw. It’s nothing more than a meaningless and trite campaign slogan that has no legal recognition whatsoever in Irish law or in International Human Rights law -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Those rights that women actually do have in any case, are limited, so it wouldn’t be true to imply that women actually have carte blanche in law to do whatever they wish with their own bodies in any case.

Alrigghtythen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don’t know, whether something is or isn’t fashionable is of no consequence to me one way or another, and that includes concerns for addressing what you claim is the main cohort who reject their children.

That’s not to say I don’t care about children who are abandoned, I just don’t seek as you do to conflate the issues involved in surrogacy, adoption, abortion and abandonment, in order to draw attention away from what we’re discussing here which is issues relating to surrogacy. You appear to be trying to argue that because children in other circumstances are abandoned, it should be acceptable to abandon children who are born as a result of a surrogacy arrangement. That’s not the compelling argument for surrogacy you think it is.

Already addressed the ‘my body, my choice’ nonsense btw. It’s nothing more than a meaningless and trite campaign slogan that has no legal recognition whatsoever in Irish law or in International Human Rights law -

Its no consequence to you one way other the other.