Transport Aircraft

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117811959#Comment_117811959

So across politics a retreat to the usual…

Peregrine

The Learjet flew from Abu Dhabi to Athens and then onto Naples yesterday. Arrived at Baldonnel this afternoon.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117806791#Comment_117806791

Well, yes, that was the joke!

banie01

Given that the RAF have confirmed their satisfaction with the A400M and are sticking to their accelerated retirement plan for their C130-j fleet, that was originally planned to be retained until 2030.

Surely at the very least an enquiry for a couple of airframes and sufficient spares to allow one airframe be held at full readiness should be made?

https://www.aerotime.aero/28773-royal-air-force-confirms-c-130j-hercules-retirement

Strumms

What about Ireland putting in an order for A400 aircraft, two say... a far higher cost to purchase then second hand C-130’s but you get.. saving in..

• maintenance
• operations
• fuel

increase in

• reliability
• payload
• speed

more besides that’s just a quick glance...this country sharpish needs to invest is money, our money, helping us, investing in our wellbeing..

when thing go wrong, we need options, need to be pressing into action, not pressing numbers on a phone looking for dig outs,

.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846110#Comment_117846110

Ideally, as I posted well over a year ago on this thread. I think our best option was buying one of the retired 767 or 320 airframes that were being laid up by Covid.

We have the technical infrastructure at Dublin and SNN to fully service, maintain and overhaul these types. The opportunity was there to pick the airframe up relatively cheaply and convert to a dual purpose layout. This could bear the brunt of Leb and UN rotations with the added benefit of a swap out interior for cargo. As well as being suitable for trade and governmental missions with a passenger fit out.

I believe that was the option we should have pursued in late 2019 as Airlines shifted less efficient airframes off their apron.

The A400M is a halfway house between strategic and tactical. It is far too much plane for the vast majority of our use case.

A better option for us having access to A400m, would be buying into an EU/NATO airlift pool. Similar to steps taken by joint basing of French/German C130s, the Belgian and Luxembourg A400s and NATO's nascent heavy airlift wing.

Many have known about the gap in our tactical airlift capacity for quite a long time and have been banging the drum for at least a modicum of actual capacity for a long time.

This thread itself is a sign of that, I thinks it running 15 months or so at this stage. The PPE mission was the 1st inkling many folk had of just how dire our lack of airlift capacity is.

The fact we had to rely on good will to get our cadre in and out of Kabul should surely signify it is long past time we had at least this notional capability ourselves.

Strumms

An a320 would not be fit for purpose... the range, size of main deck cargo door would limit its operations, it’s a narrow body aircraft, you’d fit fûck all on it... and all the above would limit its scope of operations for any and every military operator.

to take cargo you’d have to reinforce the floor, this will seriously limit the range of the aircraft, seriously increasing the fuel burn... so you have an aircraft with poor range and payload and expensive to operate... an A320 is basically as a freighter only suitable for hauling small packages, not nearly military capable.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846558#Comment_117846558

When I made the suggestion last year, it was a 767 I recommended.

The a320 was an addendum, not near perfect or suitable but readily available. The issue with cargo given or need at the time was for high volumetric weight and low density, actual weight wasn't and indeed isn't a pressing issue.

Our primary airlift needs are personnel, even into Kabul it was personnel, not equipment and let's be honest. Given our current defence posture there is no point at where we would conceivably be shifting heavy loads via air.

Now, I certainly agree that's no need to discount having that capability. It'd be one the 767 option could fill well but as a jack of all trades with personnel and government transport as a cabin option along with the wide body flexibility for transport.

The options re: A400 and the C130 are pretty much as I laid them out IMO. The other benefit of the C130 over the A400m in the short to medium term, is that there are modular maritime patrol fit outs available too which add to the flexibility.

The UKs C130j still have plenty of hours left on their airframes and are the digital/Fadec versions with scope for upgrade and MLU if needed.

Certainly the A400m is a better, newer and far more capable airframe, but unless we ensure its operated as part of a multinational pool, it is I think too much to expect the DoD to stump up for.

The Afghan debacle has highlighted not just the Irish capability gap, but the broader European need. That lack of European capacity was the original basis for the A400m spec and it's paying off if the reports of the plane in use are accurate. I do think it's a great option but knowing our DoDs aversion to Tacticool or spending in general I don't think it is an option.

Whereas very capable and far from worn out C130s with spares via the UK are.

Strumms

No, while I think a couple of A400’s or indeed Hercs would fill a capability gap in our military lift, I think the likelihood of either is pretty remote... our politicians seem hell bent on doing quite peculiarly mind boggling things with our money.. improving OUR lot, with OUR money from any standpoint, wouldn’t be popular. NGO’s would cry a Liffey of tears if we invest in them.

maybe we should have looked at piggybacking on another order from an EU neighbor and get a couple of airframes 10% cheaper.

punchdrunk

our best/most realistic hope is a third cargo C-295

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117847930#Comment_117847930

This, if its to be anything, is the most likely.

There is no argument for an A400, let alone two, because we simply don't need that degree of payload often enough. The business case simply isn't there for them.

As for 767s, with modular semi-cargo, or anything in that class, the simple fact is that the runways at Baldonnel are, at a minimum, 500 metres too short.

California Dreamer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117846558#Comment_117846558

The 767 was mentioned and although too late now, what about one of EI former A330-200's that they retired. Worked out for the UK but what you said about the need to make it military spec, would that work on the 330?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117848297#Comment_117848297

Which surely should spark that little fundraising light bulb in the Don? That we can colocate the Aer corps at Shannon or Dublin, sell Baldonnel and roll those funds into investment in equipment.

Plenty of Air Forces utilise co-base options with civilian airports. Keeping Baldonnel as a private flying club is IMO pointless given the capital that could be freed by selling it and co-locating.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849104#Comment_117849104

Moving the Air Corps… They had enough issues when Gormanston closed, moving all the way to Shannon…. Forget it. As to reinvesting the money that selling Baldonnel might bring? Not a hope, all of that would go back to finance while we get a press release about how in the future something might happen.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117849387#Comment_117849387

That's the usual Irish response and in fairness it's what we would expect given the fúck up made of seemingly every single procurement and deployment decision.

That doesn't mean we should continue to expect it and accept it though, surely? Yes given the way every single instance has gone to date, a move from Baldonnel would "fail" because those with vested interests would oppose it from the very outset. The money would disappear into the DoF and never buy so much as a boot.

But that's precisely why something needs to be done to shake the complacency and the regimen of "arra shur, thats how we've always done it".

We have reached a point where our lack of Airlift, Air policing and even notional capability of each are now well beyond any doubt. If we are to continue without either? We need to ensure the Government can outline why, and what contingency they propose. Its beyond an OpSec issue at this point, its a matter of sovereign capability and ensuring at least an Airlift capability allows some degree of confidence for our deployed peacekeepers that we can bring them home, without reliance upon commercial flights, leasing arrangements or support via 3rd parties.

The lands around Baldonnel are of significant value, its of far more import that we buy equipment that fits the need, rather than equipment that fits the base. The co-location options at Dublin and the regional airports are an option that will not be an instant move, but one that can be planned for on a multi-year basis and those members of the DF intransigent to the move can be shifted out come time for Re-up or redployed. Its never an instant fix, but not fixing it or even attempting to, because of corporate/government immobility and stubborness.

Isn't even doing the issue the service of kicking the can, its burying our head in the sand and hoping we never encounter a similar crisis again. Rather than accept that on top of the continuing capability gap, we have encountered 2 crisis in the last 18 months that have highlighted the fact we have needed to rely on private carriers for PPE, and friendly nations for Military deployment and evac.

Larbre34

Moving the Air Corps' primary base to Shannon would make all sorts of sense, from every point of view. Its why it will never happen.

Strumms

im not sure...

it would add higher operating costs to the IAC / taxpayer.

not to mention not being too friendly cost wise as regards the support of the primary roles and functions of the Aer Corps...

shannon airport is owned by a private enterprise so extra costs...

landing fees at SNN..

positioning empty aircraft to DUB to pick up president, Taoiseach, ministers and their staff..

extra handling fees..

putting the IAC at SNN would literally be a cash burning exercise...a lot cheaper to run a Merc from Kildare St to Baldonnel then an empty Learjet from SNN to DUB, pick up the Taoiseach and again to say Toulouse or wherever... putting an extra landing on the aircraft...

Other aircraft that are required for Army, Garda support but based in the midlands...hundreds of kilometers away from the two of our biggest population centers, Dublin and Cork... that be a cash drain, and not sensible to operate.

Peregrine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117851086#Comment_117851086

Shannon Airport is owned entirely by the State.

Landing fees, handling fees.. That's not really how co-located air bases work. You don't have to go far to find an example of a military base sharing facilties with civil aviation. There's one on this island.

Larbre34

Shannon would pay to have the Aer Corps based there, it would mean employment and activity and local spend, the kind of which they very badly need.

If the GASU and MATS did need some presence in Dublin, a station at Weston Airport or a hangar at EIDW centre field would similar to the CHC facility would be very doable.

sparky42

For MPA, Dublin makes no sense whatsoever, Shannon makes perfect sense. It would be interesting to see what the view of the AC personnel would be in the trade off of moving out of Dublin and the commuter belt, and the cost of living changes? Or would you have significant manpower losses due to people not wanting to move?

Larbre34

I'd say you'd have as many younger personnel delighted to move to set down roots in a lower cost of living area as you would older and senior people well settled in their communities, not interested in moving at all.

punchdrunk

Ironically the IAC have already been based in SNN!

The Dauphin was based at Shannon for a few years; in a rented hangar/shed, with the crews being flown back and forth to Dublin, staying in rented houses and they needed an eleven man crew including two drivers (instead of a usual crew of six) and they were all fed at the hotel every day because the shed they rented had no facilities in place...the usual piss poor planning and doomed to fail from the get go!

Heraldoffreeent

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117857833#Comment_117857833

WWII as well, Walrus, Some Hurricanes, and possibly some Anson's or Hudsons.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117860939#Comment_117860939

Wasn’t that a bit of a disaster as well though? Seem to remember reading something about the service rates falling off a cliff until they were withdrawn?

Heraldoffreeent

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861130#Comment_117861130

You could be right, every thing was pretty "under planned" then. If they could have run the Hurris on turf , they would have. I think the Walrus' would have used Foynes, that would have been fairly well equipped, having been the base for the Pan-Am clippers.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117861312#Comment_117861312

Yeah, its a shame that the planned build out of the AC at the time never happened, like everything else, would have given us a totally different animal of an AC had it happened, but politics and head in the sand killed that off.

roadmaster

I see the air corps did air ambulance runs to the UK again today. Does the HSE aircraft at dublin airport ever do any runs or is it just for out of hours?

Larbre34

What HSE aircraft at Dublin Airport?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117897733#Comment_117897733

Don't they have a contractor on call? Seem to remember something like that from a few years ago...

roadmaster

Its only a nighttime service turns out. For what they are charging the state it would if paid for that 5th pc12 and alot if wages.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/news/hse-will-spend-16m-on-air-ambulance-to-plug-gaps-in-emergency-service-39692207.html

Stovepipe

they had a Learjet and now a KIng Air hired in. It's about a million and a half a year. rarely moves...kaching!