Transport Aircraft

jonnybigwallet

For a funeral of course. I mean it only takes a day or two.…and civil flights are still ongoing.

Larbre34

There is already a standby arrangement with the British government to evacuate the Irish Batt to RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus. Presumably Irish civilians would be taken by the same route.

On Monday the British ordered the forward deployment of some 700 Army and Air Force personnel to Cyprus to be ready for this mission. In the circumstances I can't see the need for Irish special operations units to go this time, as we have some very experienced troops on the ground.

I respect people's position here bemoaning the lack of tactical transport still, but I think the government has done the right thing by making provisional arrangements with the Brits, rather than the panic that went on in Kabul and Sudan or whatever kip it was.

Lets face it, even we had the 295W, it would take 4 or 5 lifts unladen or 8 to 10 lifts with full personal kit to fully evac our own battalion.

jonnybigwallet

Well....the 295 has its shortcomings and an Embraer 390 would have been a better buy. Anyway, the mooted purchase of a MRV for the navy would give us the ability to act autonomously and indeed give others a hand out for a change. Looks like another project that has been kicked into the long grass….

tippilot

There will be nothing autonomous about deploying MRV's into conflict zones if we don't dispense with our allergy to proper self defence capability for ships. Our part time Minister for Defencelessness seems to think it's adequate to simply have a radar to let you know you're under attack. And even that capability doesn't yet exist.

jonnybigwallet

Well..depends on the spec of the MRV. My idea was for a proper MRV which was heavily armed and had the capability to carry out a contested beach landing of several company's of troops and IFV'S, attack helicopters on board etc,Along with being a hospital ship and capable of use for humanitarian purposes.

Larbre34

The MRV contract is also going to be announced during the election campaign.

But as for other types of planes, and what not, theres not much point complaining about what we don't have and what isn't on order or in the capital equipment programme.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122657094#Comment_122657094

after so long and at least two other GE campaigns, I’m still going to “wait and see”, at this stage it seems everything is going to be announced during the election campaign, which seems pointless as Defence procurement isn't going to win votes.

sparky42

Most of the current gen Amphib ships in Europe have fairly basic self defence systems, with escorts being used for the wider defence environment, since we aren’t going to be buying any Frigates if the MRV ever happens, and is used in hostile areas it will be as part of a wider deployment.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122656772#Comment_122656772

While I agree with the general idea of getting the best ship we can, just a few points..

No ones amphibs anywhere are "heavily armed" the most even US, Chinese etc ones have are MR-SAMS and even then only the America class is armed with those, everyone elses is point defence missiles and medium calibre guns.

If the NS MRV needs a defensive system something like the Millennium system from Rheinmetall will cover 95% of any scenarios.

No one has carried out a seriously contested amphibious landing in decades and now with the proliferation of advanced systems from armed UAV/USV/UUV, to AShM to guided ballistic missiles among even NSA it's a different all game to what those previous Amphious ops had to contend with….

No point a small force like ours factoring in doing something like that when much larger forces have starting to disregard it as viable..

The only ones seriously planning and prepping to put a force ashore across a contested beach is the Chinese because of Taiwan…and that's going to be WWII style bloody either way.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122657362#Comment_122657362

Absolutely it can, so long as the messaging is right, especially for the constituencies that will be impacted most.

Dun Laoghaire Naval Station: "New investment in this historic and iconic harbour, rejuvenation, employment, recruitment, footfall to the local area etc"

MRV: "Massive backing for a revitalised 21st Century Navy, transformed shore facilities at the Naval Base, huge career opportunities, special operations force maritime element, jobs, innovation, education, skills, security, the marine environment, blah blah blah."

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122657471#Comment_122657471

if it won votes, then a century of not investing would have cost votes, it hasn’t. The DF and it’s wider support base is dwarfed by any of the other interest groups, hell I could easily see the same presser being used by the usual suspects including the President to complain about how we shouldn’t be “militarising so much” and 300 million for a ship would solve all other problems in the state (just don’t ask how)….

I’m firmly in the no expectations, no disappointment position, nothing the parties have done since the Russian invasion suggests they have any concern about how dangerous the world is getting.

jonnybigwallet

Yeah. I can't see defense procurement featuring at all in the election campaign apart from saying there will be no big changes in funding and capability. We've already seen Micheal Martin saying there'll be no deterrence measures to stop overflights by Israeli suppliers. And the auld fella up in the park is a total pacifist. LOA2 /3 are laughable. Barely keeping up with inflation and most of the spend is on meagre wages and pensions.

zone 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122657094#Comment_122657094

why bother building MRV when most ships are parked up in both dockyards pointless at the moment until numbers rise in NS.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665253#Comment_122665253

Firstly as even if it does finally get ordered you are talking about a likely 3-5 years before she is in service, secondly because she is meant for a completely different capability than our OPVs and lastly even just the investment in her order might help recruitment and retention.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665400#Comment_122665400

The only thing that would attract potential sailors to join the NS as a result of buying an MRV, is that they will have somewhere to sleep.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665428#Comment_122665428

apart from the fact that there’s work going on right now on the base to increase that capacity and more planned long before the MRV might arrive?

EchoIndia

I love that this discussion is taking place in the "Transport Aircraft" thread. 😆

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665253#Comment_122665253

You don't fix the roof when its raining.

You put the orders in NOW, for delivery in 3,4, 5 years time.

In parallel, you strengthen pay and conditions, accommodation, opportunities, training etc.

What you're suggesting betrays a total lack of strategic thinking and an old way of thinking in the development of the forces and of state capital and infrastructure in general.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122671985#Comment_122671985

Pretty much , no matter what the circumstances of navy recruitment, you'd need to be planning now ,for a ship coming on stream in 5 or so years ( at the best of times the naval service is relatively small ,and a large extra vessel ,with new capabilities,and demands is a challenge/

, and in a scenario where the naval service is so understaffed , they probably should be putting a lot a lot of thought into why , and how they can get over that issue , and start acting very soon ,

LambshankRedemption

Slightly off topic, but new uniforms for the defence forces. Yeah, that will definitely improve morale.

roadmaster

“The record Budget funding will facilitate significant progress on important defence projects, including military radar, subsea awareness, force protection equipment and Defence Forces infrastructure. Budget 2025 will also allow the Air Corps to take delivery of the new Airbus C295W aircraft. This level of investment is critical in the current geopolitical situation.”

The above is taken from the DOD website. The poor Transport Casa is going to have a lot to live up to.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122672361#Comment_122672361

We knew that already. New ITPM based on the US version

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122675839#Comment_122675839

OK. I didn't know.

California Dreamer

€9 million for mobile phone pouches????

$7.4M would buy a second hand A320 or $11.1M would buy a 737

(according to the aircraft values thread on the blue site!)

Yes, I am being very glib when I say all this, at least its a post that has something to do with this thread! 😀

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122673919#Comment_122673919

The increase is a paltry €100m for 2025. We're just not serious about it.

Micheál Martin, our part-time minister for defence, getting ratty again a couple a days a go around the question of freeloading.

Other countries need to be leaning on Ireland to at least do the basics within it's own airspace and territorial waters. It doesn't have to be mad or expensive.

jonnybigwallet

Totally agree…and that's supposed to cover recruitment, training and wages for an extra 400? Doesn't leave much left over for beefing up the hardware.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683201#Comment_122683201

This is a misguided take.

The DF is so shorn of expertise and operational personnel that even if you went from €1.3 Bn to 2 Bn, they simply do not have the capacity to absorb that kind of funding and convert it into delivered projects.

The Commission implementation plan shows where the budget will end up eventually, but this is a marathon, not a sprint.

And as I've pointed out many times, when it comes to beefing up hardware, aka capital expenditure, that's already covered in various capital allocations and Project 2040. New ships, planes, APCs and Radar do not come out of current expenditure, which Budget 2025 is for.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122683680#Comment_122683680

is it a misguided take? We are still below inflation adjusted figures to meet the target of even LoA2 by 2028, at this point it won’t even meet the original 2030 date, and no sense of urgency within the Department or Minister in regards to just how bad the global environment is and how it’s likely to get worse. None of our planned capital expenditure involves anything radical or unique so why the massive delay? Nothing we want to order is going to get cheaper by holding off and all it means is delivery will be even further pushed out as we end up back of the line.

When you compare the vast difference in ambition to what Justice got for all levels from frontline to capital to what Defence got, it’s fairly telling that government focus isn’t on the issue.

And yeah, don’t think the minor increase at a time of massive surpluses hasn’t been noticed international

Kermit.de.frog

Two dozen Irish citizens left Lebanon on Friday as fighting continued between the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) and the Lebanese militant group Hizbullah.

Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin said 24 Irish citizens had been assisted by the Netherlands and Canada in departing the country.

“The citizens departed on flights operated by Ireland’s international partners and they are expected to arrive in Ireland over the weekend,” he said in a statement. “This is an excellent example of the importance of international cooperation.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/10/04/more-than-70-irish-troops-unable-to-return-to-their-unit-in-lebanon-due-to-ongoing-hostilities/

Indeed. An excellent example of freeloading

Larbre34

Its not a linear scale of increase, not with the capacity deficit I explained. For that and other reasons, the funding increase will have to be backloaded.

Increase capacity>increase budget>more capacity>enable greater rate of increase

Larbre34

Anyway, we don't really need to buy anything, our 24 citizen evacuees from Lebanon bummed lifts today from our "international partners" in the Royal Dutch and Royal Canadian Air Forces.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684555#Comment_122684555

To get to the 2 billion in only 3 years, that means the budget has to effectively increase 200 million a year for the remaining three years (assuming that the next government is made up of parties that will agree to that), moreover unless you are going to fall back to throwing in Capital buys like the MRV or Radar in that period the changes of hitting 2 billion in that period are even slimmer when you figure in the continue Retention issues.

Nothing we are planning to buy or invest in is anything "new" or ground breaking for anyone else.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684561#Comment_122684561

This has happened many times in the last 10 years. They must be embarrassed in the DFA when thumbing these lifts. All we need is 2 medium - heavy lift aircraft. Only non-microstate in Europe that does this as a first and only resort.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684552#Comment_122684552

Yep, great to see them out of course, hopefully the ones that haven't left aren't going to regret it, good thing evacuations aren't a regular thing so we can leave it to others to handle.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684580#Comment_122684580

I agree, its nothing unique, but we are in a situation where the whole World wants to buy everything, everywhere, all at once.

And those items do need significant, specialist project teams, which not every officer is qualified to manage.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684643#Comment_122684643

At least at the rate we are going everyone else will have their orders well progressed long before we have an order in. However iff the argument is that we can't increase the budget till we have more people to manage the projects, while we are still losing people because of lack of investment then we are still stuck in a downward spiral.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122684687#Comment_122684687

Maybe they have put orders in and just not annouced it as with the AGS H145s

vswr

I find it a bit odd that the H145's weren't announced.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122686219#Comment_122686219

Take it with a bucket of salt and pepper but there seems to be recurring strong RUMINT that the favored proposal for the Mowag replacement is a French offer of a G2G deal for VBCIs/Griffons and Jaguars. Saves having to run a tender, competitive trials etc straight buy with good financing terms.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688673#Comment_122688673

Not the worst idea, both in the G2G and going French, and good “optics” to buy from them, but as you say, assume nothing and wait and see if something actually gets ordered and in sufficient numbers.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122688601#Comment_122688601

Not really, not with an election campaign 2 weeks away. Expect a whole slew of acquisition and capital investment announcements at photo ops coming to a town near you.

sparky42

Radar? Ask again by 2028 maybe…

MRV? sure we have to have a study of the report on the review of the discussion of the tender…. Ask again next decade….

Fighters? We are not a military nation…

MATS? End of the year, no problem, this is an emergency!

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/politics/arid-41497298.html

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727276#Comment_122727276

An fancy jet at that with its Defensive Aid Suite

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122727363#Comment_122727363

I’m sure DOD has had a letter made up stating that it will never be flown somewhere where it might actually get fired on.

roadmaster

Probably old news for most but was looking at the air corps video of the visit to RAF Lossiemouth  for the meeting about providing SAR support between both the Air Corps & RAF for the north atlantic were the air corps captain mentions the Transport Casa will be here in summer 2025!

jonnybigwallet

Long way away….

EchoIndia

The Sunday Times reports today on the costs of hiring in air transport for the Taoiseach over a six-month period. Obviously, the statement that the Learjet has been out of action since late 2023 is not accurate. (I was able to access although not a subscriber.)

https://www.thetimes.com/world/ireland-world/article/simon-harris-racks-up-bill-of-500k-on-private-jets-tg3wpvnqt

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122741040#Comment_122741040

For an aircraft that is according to the media parked up a lot and has so many issues it seams to do alot of flying it was even flying last week.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122741040#Comment_122741040

ah well, no doubt the same paper will be screaming about how much the replacement costs when it’s ordered in the next few weeks.

Markcheese

So that's a half million for 6 months , does that include everything? Crew, maintenance ect ,ect ,

Because if the entire ministerial transport bill came in a million a year with no capital outlay , no staff training,wages or pensions, no overhauls , no downtime because the planes getting on , no cost for the hanger space that's starting to sound like a bargain ..