Grandpa is a kind, generous man but he's racist. Is he a bad person?

coinop

My grandfather was born during the Emergency years in the 1940s and grew up in the 1950s when Ireland was destitute. All his hard life, he had to struggle for what little he had. However, he would happily go without so that his family was provided for. He is well-liked in the community and always has good humoured stories to share to brighten your day.

But he doesn't like the blacks. He mentions facts he sees on the news such as fewer than half of the Africans in Ireland actually work. I suppose he's bitter that he had to work so hard his whole life for what little he has while more than half Africans step off the plane and enjoy a life of leisure living off the Irish taxpayer.

How can I change his worldview or is it too late?

1o059k7ewrqj3n

Be honest, this is your world view.

beveragelady

Steyr 556 wrote: »

Be honest, this is your world view.

That is exactly my impression too!

El_Duderino 09

Can't he be all those things at once? A kind, generous racist.

Racist don't have tails and horns *only Jews have them

*ironic racist joke

Larbre34

Using the term 'the Blacks' yourself isn't a great shout.

beveragelady

A very quick glance at the OP's previous posts suggests he and his beloved grandpappy have a lot in common...

Rubberchikken

I work with a high % of blacks. Quite a number of Irish/poles/Romanians etc who are employed there too are quiet racist about blacks.

I can understand some of the older generation might be racist. It doesn't make them bad, it's just them being them.

beveragelady

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113340009&postcount=77
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113434658&postcount=36
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112941920&postcount=11

Feisar

Things can only be judged against their own time, what were the world views during his formative years?

Or do we expect people to perpetually evolve during their lives?

Feisar

Larbre34 wrote: »

Using the term 'the Blacks' yourself isn't a great shout.

Yea I thought that myself, I believe there is a discussion to be had around whether or not we expect everyone to progress with the current societal view.

NIMAN

Feisar wrote: »

Things can only be judged against their own time, what were the world views during his formative years?

Or do we expect people to perpetually evolve during their lives?

It depends on whether the social media mob want to ruin a person or not.

I think grandpa will be ok.

But if you're someone like Jim Davidson and say something you grew up with, you'll be destroyed.

Rodin

coinop wrote: »

My grandfather was born during the Emergency years in the 1940s and grew up in the 1950s when Ireland was destitute. All his hard life, he had to struggle for what little he had. However, he would happily go without so that his family was provided for. He is well-liked in the community and always has good humoured stories to share to brighten your day.

But he doesn't like the blacks. He mentions facts he sees on the news such as fewer than half of the Africans in Ireland actually work. I suppose he's bitter that he had to work so hard his whole life for what little he has while more than half Africans step off the plane and enjoy a life of leisure living off the Irish taxpayer.

How can I change his worldview or is it too late?

I think you'll find he doesn't like anyone who doesn't work and who freeloads no matter their skin colour

coinop

Rubberchikken wrote: »

I can understand some of the older generation might be racist. It doesn't make them bad, it's just them being them.

I think it's simply a generational thing. My granpa's generation wouldn't be too fond of homosexuals either as it was considered a crime punishable by law for most of his life. Today's woke millennials will probably be criticised by their own grandkids for their outdated views when the're older.

beveragelady wrote: »

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113340009&postcount=77
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113434658&postcount=36
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112941920&postcount=11

If you believe a post is racist, report it. However, you diminish the meaning of the word when you claim everything is racist. Serving an African Ribena instead if wine by accident is not racist "beveragelady".

El_Duderino 09

Feisar wrote: »

Things can only be judged against their own time, what were the world views during his formative years?

Or do we expect people to perpetually evolve during their lives?

Yes. Obviously. Failure to evolve means you get left behind and become irrelevant.

Seriously apart from anything, a person never changing their views means they're probably a moron

coinop

coinop wrote: »

How can I change his (my) worldview or is it too late?

It's not too late to change his (your) worldview.

One suggestion right off the bat, try adopting the term "black people" instead of "the blacks".

Just a thought.

cfuserkildare

Is he a Racist or Xenophobe?

Thoie

I know a number of people in that age group, some with similar background stories, and only one of them is racist, and we're training her out of that.

She was always the one with the urban myths about black women leaving buggies at bus stops "because the government will buy me a new one" and all that kind of ****e. She's not a relation, but whenever she brings up that kind of crap we question her about where she heard it, why is she so ready to believe it, does she really think it's true, why is she repeating it if it's not, etc.

In relation to that article below, you could have a discussion about why the unemployment rates in that group are so high. His immediate thoughts may be "laziness", but dig into it further with him - why does he think that? What other reasons might there be? Could the high rate be due to employers being racist? (Read all of the ESRI report, but particularly page 25+) Is the 16% figure based on all people eligible to work, or based on everyone, including those who may not be eligible to apply for jobs? (Also answered in the report). How does he square the 3rd level graduate numbers with the employment figures.

Instead of just accepting "ah sure, grandad's a bit racist", call him on it. Have a discussion (not an argument, a discussion). Let him know that it bothers you. He may just have never given his casual, or not so casual, racism a second thought.

afro man

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not too late to change his (your) worldview.

One suggestion right off the bat, try adopting the term "black people" instead of "the blacks".

Just a thought.

Berties horse

Black people would also be classed as offensive by Some People
you just cant win

El_Duderino 09

afro man wrote: »

Berties horse

Black people would also be classed as offensive by Some People
you just cant win

Would it? Any examples or ary yoh just making that up?

I'm pretty sure "black" is the normal term at the moment.

beveragelady

coinop wrote: »

If you believe a post is racist, report it. However, you diminish the meaning of the word when you claim everything is racist. Serving an African Ribena instead if wine by accident is not racist "beveragelady".

You have a preoccupation with matters of race. That's what your post history shows.

And either you don't know how inverted commas work or you think my username is somehow significant in this conversation.

coinop

beveragelady wrote: »

You have a preoccupation with matters of race. That's what your post history shows.

And either you don't know how inverted commas work or you think my username is somehow significant in this conversation.

https://gript.ie/anti-racist-campaigner-dr-ebun-joseph-queries-racist-motives-as-hotel-serves-wrong-drink/

beveragelady

coinop wrote: »

https://gript.ie/anti-racist-campaigner-dr-ebun-joseph-queries-racist-motives-as-hotel-serves-wrong-drink/

Right.
Yes.
Actually no. No, I don't understand why you think that justifies your preoccupation. Or even why you think that it's significant.

JohnnyFlash

coinop wrote: »

https://gript.ie/anti-racist-campaigner-dr-ebun-joseph-queries-racist-motives-as-hotel-serves-wrong-drink/

Gript is The Liberal for people with notions about themselves.

Plumbthedepths

'The apple never falls far form the tree'.

Agricola

I don't think so. To me a racist is someone like Trump. Father in the Ku Klux Klan. Spent his time as a property developer and landlord actively discriminating against black tenants. Has spoken about how he respects black athletes for their physical prowess, in the same way you'd respect a prize bull, but wouldn't consider them as friends or equals. Couldn't give a fraction of a shít if the coronavirus wiped out the low income black population of the entire US............ that's racist. And this is a man who grew up and lived all his life in New York.

Grandad is probably like a lot of older Irish fellas. Never knew any black people, gays, poor immigrants all his life and is now a bit suspicious/fearful of them.

afro man

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Would it? Any examples or ary yoh just making that up?

I'm pretty sure "black" is the normal term at the moment.

Think term is coloured. But may be wrong agai

Rodney Bathgate

Where is the racism, OP?

Richard Hillman

Start off by insisting he call them African-Americans instead of blacks.

Zebra3

Amazing how many older people would’ve been brought up as Christians and all that “love one and another”, looked down their nose at someone not going to mass yet were out and out racists.

weldoninhio

coinop wrote: »

My grandfather was born during the Emergency years in the 1940s and grew up in the 1950s when Ireland was destitute. All his hard life, he had to struggle for what little he had. However, he would happily go without so that his family was provided for. He is well-liked in the community and always has good humoured stories to share to brighten your day.

But he doesn't like the blacks. He mentions facts he sees on the news such as fewer than half of the Africans in Ireland actually work. I suppose he's bitter that he had to work so hard his whole life for what little he has while more than half Africans step off the plane and enjoy a life of leisure living off the Irish taxpayer.

How can I change his worldview or is it too late?

It’s racist to state facts now??

Motivator

coinop wrote: »

My grandfather was born during the Emergency years in the 1940s and grew up in the 1950s when Ireland was destitute. All his hard life, he had to struggle for what little he had. However, he would happily go without so that his family was provided for. He is well-liked in the community and always has good humoured stories to share to brighten your day.

But he doesn't like the blacks. He mentions facts he sees on the news such as fewer than half of the Africans in Ireland actually work. I suppose he's bitter that he had to work so hard his whole life for what little he has while more than half Africans step off the plane and enjoy a life of leisure living off the Irish taxpayer.

How can I change his worldview or is it too late?

Unicorns were more common than black people in Ireland up until probably the mid-late 1970s. People born pre-1950 in Ireland grew up in a completely white Ireland with very little immigrants in the country. Black people, Polish people, Romanians just didn’t exist in Ireland back in those days so when they did appear in Ireland they were quite alien to people of a certain vintage.

Look at the films around from 1930s, 1940s and 1950s nearly any black person in a film back in those days played either a slave or a housekeeper. The world was probably quite racist back then it wasn’t just in Ireland. Look at the USA back then, it was a mess. Most elderly people in Ireland (70+) would probably be classed as racists nowadays but they aren’t racist, they’re a product of their environment and their formative years would have been spent having a negative view of black people due to the popular culture back then.

Church on Tuesday

I'll excuse the older generation for their out dated stereotypical views but if you judge someone by the color of their skin and are under 60 you are, quite frankly, pond life.

Thelonious Monk

Having any kind of misconceptions and prejudices against people when you have no basis for it is idiotic really regardless of age. You can excuse some things from different times, but if there's any malice or venom involved, they're just bitter people. Sure, times were different back then, but I bet he would have hated people from the next county too.

El_Duderino 09

afro man wrote: »

Think term is coloured. But may be wrong agai

LOL. I get it. You're messing.

But I hope it demonstrates the point that everyone knows the normal term for black people, is black. And it's completely normal and not controversial.

El_Duderino 09

Motivator wrote: »

...

Most elderly people in Ireland (70+) would probably be classed as racists nowadays but they aren’t racist, they’re a product of their environment and their formative years would have been spent having a negative view of black people due to the popular culture back then.

Well, if they hold those negative views then yes, they're racist. It doesn't really matter how they got the views.

El_Duderino 09

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

I'll excuse the older generation for their out dated stereotypical views but if you judge someone by the color of their skin and are under 60 you are, quite frankly, pond life.

Yeah but the older people can still learn from new information. They might be racist because ethey grew up racist, but if they can't figure it out then that's it, theyre racist.

People give old people great credit for being wise. If they're racist, I'd question the relevance of their "wisdom".

And you're suggesting old people can't learn so now if really doubt the wisdom of old people

cfuserkildare

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well, if they hold those negative views then yes, they're racist. It doesn't really matter how they got the views.

How racist is it to want to preserve your national identity and history?

El_Duderino 09

cfuserkildare wrote: »

How racist is it to want to preserve your national identity and history?

No no.

This is what I was replying to

"Most elderly people in Ireland (70+) would probably be classed as racists nowadays but they aren’t racist, they’re a product of their environment and their formative years would have been spent having a negative view of black people due to the popular culture back then"

It was about them being racist because they learned to be racist when they were growing up. Nothing to do with what you said. So... gerr'up outta that.

StackSteevens

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Start off by insisting he call them African-Americans instead of blacks.

Why should someone else's grandfather have to pander to your sensibilities?

Pops_20

cfuserkildare wrote: »

How racist is it to want to preserve your national identity and history?

Are you suggesting our national identity and history are under threat?

El_Duderino 09

StackSteevens wrote: »

Why should someone else's grandfather have to pander to your sensibilities?

First off, it was a joke as black people in Ireland probay aren't African American.

Secondly, you call it pandering wherepst people would call it normal decency. If a English person insisted on calling Irish people "paddy" instead of Irish, it's a fairly strong indication that they're a dickhead.

ThewhiteJesus

coinop wrote: »

My grandfather was born during the Emergency years in the 1940s and grew up in the 1950s when Ireland was destitute. All his hard life, he had to struggle for what little he had. However, he would happily go without so that his family was provided for. He is well-liked in the community and always has good humoured stories to share to brighten your day.

But he doesn't like the blacks. He mentions facts he sees on the news such as fewer than half of the Africans in Ireland actually work. I suppose he's bitter that he had to work so hard his whole life for what little he has while more than half Africans step off the plane and enjoy a life of leisure living off the Irish taxpayer.

How can I change his worldview or is it too late?

There’s no smoke without fire, have you considered you could be wrong ?
Irish people are called potato eating Guinness drinking scrappers, see what I’m saying?

mariaalice

If it's fear of difference it's one thing, if its irrational hatred based on stereotypes that is completely different.

Has he ever meant a black person?

There is a great bit in upstart crow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstart_Crow

Shakespeare is talking to his wife about his great Jew play and his wife says I have never met a Jew and Shakespeare says neither have I.

El_Duderino 09

Pops_20 wrote: »

Are you suggesting our national identity and history are under threat?

I find the people who worry most about our national identity and culture also tend to be clueless about the culture apart from the famine and the fight for independence. Not a clue about the folklore, the traditions and the things that actually make us unique.

The best way to preserve those things is to learn about Irish culture and history and revive them so they are passed on and thrive.

If we teach the new Irish about these things and they'll live on. If we rely on the racists to protect our culture, we're finished.

screamer

A lot of Irish people are pc in public and racist in private. Someone’s views don’t particularly bother me, as I have my own. The racism towards travellers in Ireland actually disgusts me most, not even racism pure unadulterated hate towards them.

StackSteevens

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

First off, it was a joke as black people in Ireland probay aren't African American.

Secondly, you call it pandering wherepst people would call it normal decency. If a English person insisted on calling Irish people "paddy" instead of Irish, it's a fairly strong indication that they're a dickhead.

I'm happy to I defer to your unrivalled expertise on international stereotyping.

However I would respectfuly suggest that your joke writing ability requires quite a bit of tweaking.

mariaalice

screamer wrote: »

A lot of Irish people are pc in public and racist in private. Someone’s views don’t particularly bother me, as I have my own. The racism towards travellers in Ireland actually disgusts me most, not even racism pure unadulterated hate towards them.

How do you know what people think in private?

cfuserkildare

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I find the people who worry most about our national identity and culture also tend to be clueless about the culture apart from the famine and the fight for independence. Not a clue about the folklore, the traditions and the things that actually make us unique.

The best way to preserve those things is to learn about Irish culture and history and revive them so they are passed on and thrive.

If we teach the new Irish about these things and they'll live on. If we rely on the racists to protect our culture, we're finished.

Kinda but not quite.
Ireland is a good example of how multiculturalism us a disaster for native culture.

As an example,. English is the most spoken language in Ireland,
What is the second most used language in Ireland?
Polish!!
Irish/Gaelic us third on the list!!

( Not being anti Polish, just giving an example )

kowloon

cfuserkildare wrote: »

How racist is it to want to preserve your national identity and history?

Our history isn't in any way affected.
As for our current culture, I have two issues with many of the people saying it needs to be preserved: Firstly, culture isn't a static thing, it changes, that's how culture works. The people entrenched in keeping things the same have something in common with the people who harp on about cultural appropriation. Hopefully, the good ideas and practices spread and the bad ones die out.
The second issue is this idea that there's some sort of monolithic culture that you need to fit in to. People vary wildly, and while we generally have more in common with groups we're more closely a part of, from a group of friends right up to an entire nation, the variance of people is so wide I doubt you could ever pin down anything beyond a few traits or vague concepts.

Feisar

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Having any kind of misconceptions and prejudices against people when you have no basis for it is idiotic really regardless of age. You can excuse some things from different times, but if there's any malice or venom involved, they're just bitter people. Sure, times were different back then, but I bet he would have hated people from the next county too.

Next county? Next parish you mean!

screamer

mariaalice wrote: »

How do you know what people think in private?

What I mean is, ask them a question in public they’ll give you the pc answer in front of other people where there’s a big audience and people fawn over each other to be more pc than the next. Ask that person the same question when it’s just 2 of you talking and you’ll see a different side.