Recommended construction companies for progression?

Skidfingers

Any recommendations on what construction companies that are the best overall for professionals (engineers, project managers, QS) in terms of nice to work for, progression, training, salaries, work load etc. Can be building, civil, m&e

Thanks!

moonlighting_1

Construction and nice to work for don't go hand in hand.
Its more a case of finding a company that wont work the bollix of ya and let ya go at the end of a project.

Tefral

What's your background?

Skidfingers

moonlighting_1 wrote: »

Construction and nice to work for don't go hand in hand.
Its more a case of finding a company that wont work the bollix of ya and let ya go at the end of a project.

I don’t think a lot of the larger companies are like that. They’ll try and move you around the country but most will want to hold onto you.

Skidfingers

Tefral wrote: »

What's your background?

QS with 3 years experience.

CBear1993

I used to think consultancies were the way to go - always wearing a suit, guarding the clients money, shorter hours etc. and the pay gap between them and contractors has shortened.

But from what I’ve seen in Dublin consultancies are working their lads to the bone just as much, and it’s full of ass lickers and seat sniffers trying to hump the seniors just to get a promotion. The snobbier side of construction from main contracting. KSN in Dublin are an exception I hear.

CBear1993

For what it’s worth 95% of them are all c*nts. If you ever have some issues in your life or have a bout of depression or mental health issues then forget about them trying to understand the situation. I know a few friends with the bigger firms in Dublin that were basically told - either turn up or be sacked. Which I get - it’s a business. But it is a rotten ruthless industry and it’s very old fashioned because of the dinosaurs who run it and politics behind it. One of the most corrupt industries in the world and when you pair that with Ireland it’s like a breeding ground for brown envelope culture.

I think the best chance of getting treated any way well is with a small enough company with 1-2 directors max and a flat management structure. They all boast open door policy but that’s Bullsh*t.
You c an get lucky and come across the odd genuine commercial manager who values his team but it’s very rare. The blame is passed down the line always in construction and scapegoats are the norm.

For all the slagging us Irish do about english - they know how to run construction well. They pay on time and fairly (majority) and they don’t work for nothing. Irish contractors are the worst of the worst and undercut each other like mad and always have done, when they should stand back and work together to exploit clients and main contractors alike. Too many “grunt” men. Who think shouting and flouting their testosterone fueled egos around a board room yields results.

Have you ever walked into a construction head office where the project managers and QS’s all sit? As dead as a door nail. Yet the marketing/accountancy/HR departments are a barrel of laughs.

The industry needs to take a long look at itself , and it wonders why young people never want to go into construction, any wonder. Why would any woman join it when they’re going to be targeted and dismissed from day one?
I for one would love to see english / further abroad contractors winning more work over here on big projects above the Sisks, BAMs, JohnPauls, Rhatigans of the world

enricoh

Would you jump ship to another crowd at the minute? Construction is always boom n bust in Ireland, we could well be in the bust stage at the minute!
it'd be last in first out in a lot of places now.

CBear1993

Yeah I’ve seen and heard of it as soon as today.
My old firm got rid of 10 people in the last 2 weeks - as you say, people who were only hired last year, or deadwood that I would have classified as “a waste of the skin surrounding them” for construction.

Also one of the big contractors I mentioned above have enforced 30% pay cuts for May and June, talking to lads working there they don’t think it’ll change after June and it’ll stay permanent. Fairly grim!

We could all be on the plane to London, or further afield such as Oz again,

Tefral

Cbear, you should post that rant on LinkedIn and have a few construction related hashtags to get max exposure.

If anyone is reading this thread and is thinking of entering the construction industry, read Cbears post. Its about as real as it gets.

I'm a QS by trade, I moved up the ladder a bit and then went to a medium sized subbie where im the bosses right hand man. Much better than either consultancy works or working as a "traffic Warden" QS for a big main contractor.

I will say though, from the moment I wake up to the moment I go home, all i do is fight with total assholes all day. Its like a game of chess constantly, I have to think of moves 3 or 5 emails later. Most of the "assholes" work for the above mentioned firms. I will say though, those individuals are sound, all of them, without exception. I'd go for a beer with any of them. They are all just put under so much pressure fellas are cracking..

CBear1993

I'd be tore to shreds unfortunately future wise it wouldn't be a smart thing to do... plus unfortunately I suffer from caring what other people think occasionally. I did put up an "article" on LinkedIn before about it that received a lot of positive feedback although a few bosses and recruiters in jobs I went for after that told me to remove it, needless to say I haven't.

Medium sized subbie? If you's have any groundworks/civils packages at present in Leinster send me me a private message!!

Tacitus Kilgore

Lots of truth in here! couldn't have worded it any better myself.


Hearing every day about the paycuts being put on fellas, surprised at one company but not the others tbh. I will also echo, main contractors are where dreams & happiness go to die.

Another few years at it and I want out tbh. What would you fellas say is a good profession to look at that would recognise a fella with intermediate/senior QS/PM experience, rather than having to start from the bottom again..

CBear1993

I wrecked my head this time last year looking up every postgrad course you could think of in the irish universities to start in september. It's a minefield trying to commit to one. Being a QS I don't think I'd ever want to go back to sitting at a desk all day churning numbers.

Someone mentioned before that a lot of ex construction go into software engineering?

I even stupidly spent money on a career coach in Dublin, what a load of bollocks that was at €500 for a few sessions. Told me to go into HR/People roles, I wrote her a lovely review on google

I've been trying to do a lot of inner searching and would love to start something this September to get me out of this sh*thole of an industry. The only way is down from here lads - as I've mentioned on another thread - a few of the top 4-5 contractors issued 30% pay cuts last week for MAY & June - a lot of lads I was speaking to are confident this will stay permanent after June.
Two of the big house building developers told all their subbies their rates were being slashed 10% last week. Some kick in the stones if you're in the middle of a job for them.

Theyre scumbags the lot of them and I'll never work for them again, a consultancy, developer or main contractor. You can guaran-f*ckin-tee that the same boys won't be going in at 10% less rates to the moneybags clients. Make the staff take the hit first.

Tefral

CBear1993 wrote: »

Two of the big house building developers told all their subbies their rates were being slashed 10% last week. Some kick in the stones if you're in the middle of a job for them.

Theyre scumbags the lot of them and I'll never work for them again, a consultancy, developer or main contractor. You can guaran-f*ckin-tee that the same boys won't be going in at 10% less rates to the moneybags clients. Make the staff take the hit first.

Surely, they have signed up to a contract, cant just do that unless it was dayworks.

I'm pricing up the affect this Covid stuff is having on us, thousands spent on new RAMS, safety PPE etc. I told one main contractor i am notifying him of my intention to submit a compensation event for delay just to protect myself as the programme is delayed, flipped a lid.

****ing sick of it. Most QS's I am talking to in the last 3 weeks are the same. I think alot of us are juggling with small kids at home too and that adds to the stress.

I always thought our skills are very transferable into insurance etc, but like you mentioned above, the idea of endless excel spreadsheets fills me with dread!

I turned down the opportunity to go for a job as a lecturer for a QS course as the wage drop was massive, kinda regret it to be honest.

Revit Man

Work for a consultancy, 150 employees approx. As username suggests, I draft in Revit for a living.

20% pay cuts across the board the second the words Covid-19 hit Ireland. There was no attempting to weather any storm, before any impact was felt, all salaries were slashed. I'm on a permanent contract, not a contractor.

I'd like out of the industry, but I'm mid 30s with a young family. I can't afford the luxury of stopping an income and re-training.

jetsonx

CBear1993 wrote: »

For what it’s worth 95% of them are all c*nts.

Unfortunately, from the stories about this profession over the years, this seems to be true. A real dog-eat-dog industry.

I really respect anyone decent in the construction industry. Its seems an extreamly dangerous job and having a bad employer does not help.

Going back to the OP's question, not all are bad. I've heard some really nice stuff said about Cosgrave builders over the years.

CBear1993

Revit Man wrote: »

Work for a consultancy, 150 employees approx. As username suggests, I draft in Revit for a living.

20% pay cuts across the board the second the words Covid-19 hit Ireland. There was no attempting to weather any storm, before any impact was felt, all salaries were slashed. I'm on a permanent contract, not a contractor.

I'd like out of the industry, but I'm mid 30s with a young family. I can't afford the luxury of stopping an income and re-training.

Do you enjoy the whole Revit/BIM side of things? Was looking at doing a coursse in it now in september but not sure.. would probably just get sick of it as it's dealing with the same assh*les.

A few BIM guys I've saw in main contractors get absolutely tortured by all the dinosaurs in the company and directors. Because they're essentially the only person who knows how to do these things, everyone chips in looking their little bit done. Must be incredibly infuriating.

CBear1993

I think all of us feeling the same on this thread should form a merger company and shaft the f*ck out of all the c*nts we're talking about!!!

Tefral

CBear1993 wrote: »

I think all of us feeling the same on this thread should form a merger company and shaft the f*ck out of all the c*nts we're talking about!!!

A ball of QS's with a chip on their shoulder... dangerous territory that...

Tacitus Kilgore

I'd love to get away from the whole industry tbh, too many expect you to be married to the job, subbies and pm's ringing/emailing in the middle of the night, at weekends etc. they can all feck off, hard enough doing 50 hour weeks without that crap going on.

Happiest I've ever been was labouring - you don't bring the shovel home with ye - but there's no longevity in it without crippling yourself.

Tefral

Tacitus Kilgore wrote: »

I'd love to get away from the whole industry tbh, too many expect you to be married to the job, subbies and pm's ringing/emailing in the middle of the night, at weekends etc. they can all feck off, hard enough doing 50 hour weeks without that crap going on.

Happiest I've ever been was labouring - you don't bring the shovel home with ye - but there's no longevity in it without crippling yourself.

I took great enjoyment out of building my own house. Something about being mentally wrecked and then going home and doing some manual labour.

I am wondering if the level of "work remorse" we have is tied to being off for the last while and actualy getting to enjoy life a bit.

Revit Man

CBear1993 wrote: »

Do you enjoy the whole Revit/BIM side of things? Was looking at doing a coursse in it now in september but not sure.. would probably just get sick of it as it's dealing with the same assh*les.

A few BIM guys I've saw in main contractors get absolutely tortured by all the dinosaurs in the company and directors. Because they're essentially the only person who knows how to do these things, everyone chips in looking their little bit done. Must be incredibly infuriating.

For me, it's enjoyable if given adequate time to do a good job, but I have noticed in recent years that there seems to be less time given to do the job correctly. Designs are constantly "evolving", and so there's re-work after re-work on projects.

When I began this type of work almost 15 years ago, it went something along the lines of

Architectural layouts to be finalised by end of June
Structural layouts to be finalised by end of July
Tweaks to architectural drawings based on structural necessities by mid-August, issue all drawings.

Now the time line seems to have been condensed, nothing is ever fully bottomed out, yet gets issued all the same, which leads to issues on site, issues with QS, issues with other disciplines etc.

And I've worked for a few different companies over the last number of years, it's not restricted to one, it feels like it's a widespread change in the industry.

3D modelling has definitely assisted in this change of practice. It is both fantastic and a pain in the arse.

Tacitus Kilgore

Tefral wrote: »

I took great enjoyment out of building my own house. Something about being mentally wrecked and then going home and doing some manual labour.

I am wondering if the level of "work remorse" we have is tied to being off for the last while and actualy getting to enjoy life a bit.

Love the manual end of things, only got into this lark because I was told it was a good way to be in construction but you get to stay dry, warm and without a broken back - Noone mentioned the stress or pressure, or how the fact that it's a pointless job half the time - you spend months putting together an account only for it to be ignored and settled on a high level handshake. I'd rather be physically crippled tbh.

CBear1993

Any of ye looking at postgrads or any sort of courses or training schemes to get out of it? Going by the last week or two it’s a tough 12 months plus ahead. Who are the companies unscathed in the industry by this I wonder.

There’s a great scheme run by enterprise ireland called new frontiers If anyone has any business ideas. It pops up in colleges around the country every month or two, and it’s completely free. There’s one near me in Dublin in July and the closing date is June. I’ve a few ideas but probably won’t ever bother to go near it. Free to enter and if you’re accepted it’s free. Basically entrepreneurial experts who help you get your business idea off the ground. If it’s a runner you progress to phase 2 and possibly secure funding

Blacktie.

I started a data analytics course early last year that's due to finish at the end of this year. It was all online and a lot of poroject work so I could easily work it around the job. I only done it as a back up if construction goes under again tbh but found I actually enjoy it so I think if the axe comes down on my company I'll be jumping industry a bit earlier than expected.

I done the course through Springboard so costs were greatly reduced. I only had to pay 10% of the fees. I would highly recommend checking out what they have to offer there's a lot there without a massive investment up front.

Tefral

Blacktie. wrote: »

I started a data analytics course early last year that's due to finish at the end of this year. It was all online and a lot of poroject work so I could easily work it around the job. I only done it as a back up if construction goes under again tbh but found I actually enjoy it so I think if the axe comes down on my company I'll be jumping industry a bit earlier than expected.

I done the course through Springboard so costs were greatly reduced. I only had to pay 10% of the fees. I would highly recommend checking out what they have to offer there's a lot there without a massive investment up front.

Sounds like a natural choice for a QS to move into.

Blacktie.

Tefral wrote: »

Sounds like a natural choice for a QS to move into.

Yeah probably actually but I'm the mech engineer side of things so it's all new to me.

addaword

Skidfingers wrote: »

QS with 3 years experience.

A QS I know well got s job in a third level institute working and he never looked back. He had a bit more experience than you have now, but he is on huge money and have plenty of time off during the week, and great holidays. And a great pension. He said it was like winning the lotto compared to the private sector job he had in rural Ireland.

CBear1993

addaword wrote: »

A QS I know well got s job in a third level institute working and he never looked back. He had a bit more experience than you have now, but he is on huge money and have plenty of time off during the week, and great holidays. And a great pension. He said it was like winning the lotto compared to the private sector job he had in rural Ireland.

Really? I look out for the odd lecturing job in Dublin here but they’re few and far between! I thought you’d have to take a massive drop in wages?

Tefral

CBear1993 wrote: »

Really? I look out for the odd lecturing job in Dublin here but they’re few and far between! I thought you’d have to take a massive drop in wages?

45k was the wage i would have had to drop to

Revit Man

A former colleague of mine got a job lecturing, 42K or so. It was a drop in salary, but not that much for him considering he was working less than half the hours he was in the old job, and vastly improved time off.

I'd consider it if options came up locally, which they almost certainly won't!

CBear1993

Tefral wrote: »

45k was the wage i would have had to drop to

That’s not bad although depends what you were on. Could be worth it rather than the **** to deal with in actual industry not sure I’d enjoy teaching the whole contracts side of things again

Tefral

CBear1993 wrote: »

That’s not bad although depends what you were on. Could be worth it rather than the **** to deal with in actual industry not sure I’d enjoy teaching the whole contracts side of things again

I know, i regret not going for it though. i never really factored in the whole summer off thing. I could have opened a small side company and measured a few houses etc to top up the wage.

GMIT are looking for a QS lecturer currently.

Skidfingers

Tefral wrote: »

I know, i regret not going for it though. i never really factored in the whole summer off thing. I could have opened a small side company and measured a few houses etc to top up the wage.

GMIT are looking for a QS lecturer currently.

I wonder is it easy to get work like this on the side? Where would you even start?

addaword

CBear1993 wrote: »

Really? I look out for the odd lecturing job in Dublin here but they’re few and far between! I thought you’d have to take a massive drop in wages?

75 k is quite good I would have thought, especially considering the hours and holidays. That sort of money can go a long way outside of Dublin. Not bad anyway.

screamer

If you want progressions as a QS go and get your PQS and go into practise. Construction and progression are a fallacy, the boom bust nature means you are building your career on sand. They work you to the bone and by 40 most QSs have gotten out. Too intense a burn on the brain.

CBear1993

Consultancies are a pile of bollocks too though. Lads I know that are in associate director positions you wouldn’t get them as senior PMs or QS in the contracting side. Hard to listen to the consultancy side too, they’re a different breed.

Had a quick look on the jobs websites tonight as hadn’t been on them from 2019, numbers are well down for construction .

Honestly makes me shiver reading the QS ones. Don’t think I’ll ever go for a QS position with any consultancy or contractor ever again

Tefral

screamer wrote: »

If you want progressions as a QS go and get your PQS and go into practise. Construction and progression are a fallacy, the boom bust nature means you are building your career on sand. They work you to the bone and by 40 most QSs have gotten out. Too intense a burn on the brain.

I have worked in both and your head is melted in both sides.

Consultancy PQS's get paid a good bit less than a CQS, so if your head is gonna be melted anyway, best get paid more.

C3PO

Would you not think of training as Project Manager OP? Being a qualified QS is a very good basis!

Pinch Flat

I've worked both sides of the industry. Top 5 contractors and the top 5 consultancies. 25 years in the game. I prefer the consultancy side. Wouldn't dream of going back to a contractor for any money - the cut-throat and ruthless nature of that game - endlessly fabricating claims - just doesn't appeal to me. I worked with a top 5 contractor in the dot com bubble burst in 2001 - just moved back from the UK, newly married and a mortgage taken out. Dropped me as quick as anything. Same happened again with a consultancy in 2009 when that went pair shaped. Current employer there's been zero pay cuts or redundancy, which I'm amazed by. I;m expecting a deep recession well into 2021, so have made my plans on that basis. I'll try weather it out as I did from 2009 - 2013 - emigrating not an option for a number of reasons.

The industry has become unbelievable fast paced, particularly multi-nationals - they want stuff yesterday. Zero forgiveness for stuff being done wrong or one of a hundred balls being juggled being dropped. The industry is a race to the bottom here - contractors and consultants are undercutting each other on fees / tenders and clients don't see the value of professional services. Constantly want stuff for free, change their wind and won;t pay for it, delay projects and not want to know - the end date is the end date.

I honestly wouldn't recommend the industry to anybody - it's fairly chaotic - I try to explain this to people working in "normal" industries - you go from boom to bust and back again. Been through four recessions since the mid-90s when I left college. It makes it hard to make really long term plans. I'm hitting 50 now, married with a kid and mortgage, I'd love t change but the option of me starting all over again at the bottom, just doesn't work for me.

CBear1993

C3PO wrote: »

Would you not think of training as Project Manager OP? Being a qualified QS is a very good basis!

No. Project management in construction is just as bad if not worse. Hours are longer and you’re the first or second person the finger is pointed at when **** hits the fan. Wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole. A lot of stress and hassle

C3PO

CBear1993 wrote: »

No. Project management in construction is just as bad if not worse. Hours are longer and you’re the first or second person the finger is pointed at when **** hits the fan. Wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole. A lot of stress and hassle

I wasn't suggesting construction to be honest - there are project managers required in all sorts of industries!

Andrew00

Is labouring on the sites any good for a while'een?

Skidfingers

Would a QS with a subbie be better then a main contractor or consultancy?

Tefral

Skidfingers wrote: »

Would a QS with a subbie be better then a main contractor or consultancy?

I'm a QS/Contracts Manager with an Electrical Sub-Contractor. My boss is sound so yes it appears that way. Plenty of fighting though as everyone wants to take a chunk out of you, but they don't like it when you fight back, so you have that to deal with.

Revit Man

C3PO wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting construction to be honest - there are project managers required in all sorts of industries!

On this point.. i'm currently undertaking an MSc in Project Management. 2 years, part time, online course. Approaching the end of the first year, 6 weeks left. I'm not sure I'll get there, or will return for year 2, it's very heavy going.

Anybody who has told me that project management doesn't require college education either isn't a project manager, or thinks they are. By which I mean, while many (most) project managers I know haven't gone any formal route, most would appreciate the benefits of learning the principles and tools behind it prior to working the position.

All sorts of industries require project managers, so true, and in essence it's a process. In it's true sense, you don't need to know the industry to be a project manager once you can implement correct processes and techniques at the correct times, but would I reallllly be able to get work in another sector?

CBear1993

Doubt it. I tried getting out of the industry before and it’s next to impossible unless you have a very powerful contact in a firm. A lot of hiring managers outside construction are completely alien to what skills people in it have.

Revit Man

Yeah, this is my thinking also.

I don't even know what sideways moves I can make. I think I'm stuck bar fully retraining in something else, which is not feasible. I'm mid-30s, have a mortgage to pay and a child to pay for. Can't stop working to retrain, or take a big financial hit to retrain.

Blacktie.

Revit Man wrote: »

I don't even know what sideways moves I can make. I think I'm stuck bar fully retraining in something else, which is not feasible. I'm mid-30s, have a mortgage to pay and a child to pay for. Can't stop working to retrain, or take a big financial hit to retrain.

Could you retrain part time while working?

Revit Man

Blacktie. wrote: »

Could you retrain part time while working?

Already doing a masters part time while working full time. And I swear I'll never go to college again, it's a killer trying to fit it in and do it well.

Fluffy101

CBear1993 wrote: »

Doubt it. I tried getting out of the industry before and it’s next to impossible unless you have a very powerful contact in a firm. A lot of hiring managers outside construction are completely alien to what skills people in it have.

What industries have you tried out of interest.

I'm leaving construction now but I have experience in an other industry so still a step up from current position.

If your moving to a new industry, without experience in that you will 99% of the time have to take a lower level position unless lucky or as you say know people.