GSOC says Gardai can exercise discretion in parking enforcement

mvt

Personally I dont find
commercial vehicles in a bike lane to be a huge problem, other traffic has to go around them too so it's not as if you are going to be pulling out into a line of traffic with your bike.

There has to be a bit of give & take on all sides.

Private cars are another matter altogether :mad:

Hurrache

mvt wrote: »

so it's not as if you are going to be pulling out into a line of traffic with your bike.

But that's exactly what you're doing. And when the street is congested, you've even less space. Take Gardiner Street for example, always 2 lanes of stopped traffic and you often have buses or vans parked up, but the 2 stopped lanes of traffic don't snake outwards to compensate, they line up as if nothing was there.

So where do you go when you're on a bike? You have to slow right down, if not stop, and filter in and around the 2 lanes of cars to get around.

Mc Love

like one poster said, when you park in a cycle lane or half on a footpath, half blocking the road, you're still blocking cars from getting past. Just park on the road and pedestrians will be safer as will cyclists etc.

mvt

Sorry,double post

mvt

The shops have to get their deliveries somehow as it stands.

You are never going to have it perfect.

There is always going to be some sort of congestion & when I do encounter it I'm glad that I am on a bike & can go round it.

This is life cycling in a city, there will always be obstacles.

Curb Your Enthusiasm

mvt wrote: »

Personally I dont find
commercial vehicles in a bike lane to be a huge problem, other traffic has to go around them too so it's not as if you are going to be pulling out into a line of traffic with your bike.

There has to be a bit of give & take on all sides.

Private cars are another matter altogether :mad:

Happens here in Cork all the time. Even in contraflow lanes, resulting in many near misses which could end in a head on collision. It's not just a case of going around... You wouldn't say that to your son or daughter cycling in these lanes (built to keep them safe) to school, for example.

GreeBo

Blueshoe wrote: »

Necessity rather than convenience.
Options are very limited out there. It's a headache for all involved

What do you do if the loading bay or cycle lane is full when you get there?
Like at what point do you excuse just launching your vehicle across the path into the storefront?

paddy19

It's about the law.
If this law is not clear and enforced then why should I obey any law.
Who gets to decide what laws apply and which can be ignored.

If it is not longer a cycle lane then change the marking even temporarily.

This arragh it's all right by both the Corpo and the Gardia is just laziness.

CramCycle

Blueshoe wrote: »

Drivers can park in the road and block a lane of they wish. One of my co workers actually did this recently. A car was parked in the loading bay so he just stopped alongside it, blocked traffic in that lane and refused to move and just waited despite the beeping from those behind him. A Garda eventually came and ended up taking his side because of the car in the loading bay.

And he was right.

Personally I won't be blocking a car lane. Most of my stops are 5 or 10 minutes so until more loading bays are made available to deliver drivers I will continue to park where I can.

Why not though, what makes the car lane more important than the footpath, or the cycle lane. You are possibly, depending on where, partially blocking it regardless.

I haven't heard anyone or body make the suggestion for 4am to 7am deliveries. Vehicles have to be loaded so drivers would be starting their shift at 1am or so. That's pie in the sky stuff in my opinion.

Really, I worked nights for years, alot of couriers work night doing overnight hauls across the country. Its not pie in the sky at all, it is actually quite a reasonable suggestion. You could also have it that they are loaded by separate handlers at the depot etc. It is actually quite reasonable, you just don't like it.

I can't see anything happening any time soon to be honest

Nothing will but there are options, even if people don't like them.

Blueshoe wrote: »

Necessity rather than convenience.
Options are very limited out there. It's a headache for all involved

Its convenience, when you do something that suits you best even though there are alternatives out there. In fact it is the very definition of convenience over necessity

ED E

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Is it possible to have functioning cycle lanes and adequate loading bays for every delivery vehicle to pull up directly in front of every business in the country?

Because that is what they're doing every time they're blocking a cycle lane.

Or should delivery drivers accept that parking safely and legally a short distance away is a necessary inconvenience?

Tesco policy is the driver must keep the vehicle in sight at all times. This mandates illegal parking. That's just one example.

magicbastarder

Blueshoe, what are the most problematic locations you've come across, where there are no feasible options to park somewhere that won't be blocking a path/cycle path/road?

Blueshoe

CramCycle wrote: »

And he was right.

Why not though, what makes the car lane more important than the footpath, or the cycle lane. You are possibly, depending on where, partially blocking it regardless.

Really, I worked nights for years, alot of couriers work night doing overnight hauls across the country. Its not pie in the sky at all, it is actually quite a reasonable suggestion. You could also have it that they are loaded by separate handlers at the depot etc. It is actually quite reasonable, you just don't like it.

Nothing will but there are options, even if people don't like them.

Its convenience, when you do something that suits you best even though there are alternatives out there. In fact it is the very definition of convenience over necessity

There aren't alternatives. No parking or loading bays available. Heavy traffic and many stops to be made.
Real life problems that people face.

Just add more loading bays to accommodate the amount of deliveries to an area. I'm sure someone in a department somewhere could gather the data and make suggestions accordingly.

This doesn't have to be an us v them scenario.

mvt

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Happens here in Cork all the time. Even in contraflow lanes, resulting in many near misses which could end in a head on collision. It's not just a case of going around... You wouldn't say that to your son or daughter cycling in these lanes (built to keep them safe) to school, for example.

As I hope I have taught my daughter & am trying to teach my grandson you will always meet obstacles in life- don't tackle them blindly & pull out in front of oncoming traffic .

Imo in this country you are not going to change people's attitude to driving,or parking as it is in this case.

I wish I lived in a perfect world but sometimes you just got to go with what you have.

Blueshoe

magicbastarder wrote: »

Blueshoe, what are the most problematic locations you've come across, where there are no feasible options to park somewhere that won't be blocking a path/cycle path/road?

Pick a location. Everyday is different. Could arrive somedays and slip into a loading bay no problem. The next day the same location could have no spaces, lashing rain, heavy traffic and a huge workload to get through.
Ridiculous stress already without cyclists kicking off about it

Cork Trucker

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

It's a cycle lane. Don't block it. Simple as.

If the loading bay is blocked, Park in the driving lane and maybe then Gardai will take enforcement of cycle lanes and loading bays seriously. Enforcement is the key problem here too.

You must be having a laugh are ya? You've been advocating for a good few years now to have change introduced around Cork both for cyclists and public transport, it hasn't happened or if it has it is very minor. You succeeded in getting the segregation of the C.I.T cycle lane re-introduced, you've been banging your head against a brick wall with the CEO of Cork City Council to get other cycle lanes segregated, the only ones who the Gardai take action on for parking in a traffic lane is the truck/van or whatever it might be, i got a ticket for doing it outside Tiger Electronics in 2016 as there were cars in the loading bays, i had my day in court and left with my reputation intact. Enforcement is not entirely a problem in itself, it's most of the old skool cops don't want to deal with it, rather a probationer or a rookie will take it to task alot quicker than someone with 10/20 in the job.

Lord god imagine if Terry Shannon was on boards what he'd say :pac:

robertpatterson

It's always been the case that the Garda had discretion in matters of law
Otherwise they would have to arrest and prosecute everyone who jaywalks or goes through a red light

sweetie

Mc Love wrote: »

Very true - most park on the footpath if they cant find a spot. Limerick Council actually did block off the front of the church with wands to stop mass goers from parking in the cycle lane, although you get some idiots that park right at the start of the lane which is also on a corner. The same person would park beside the altar if they could

now that's an idea, a drive-thru pew. I'm sure it's done in murica

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

You must be having a laugh are ya? You've been advocating for a good few years now to have change introduced around Cork both for cyclists and public transport, it hasn't happened or if it has it is very minor. You succeeded in getting the segregation of the C.I.T cycle lane re-introduced, you've been banging your head against a brick wall with the CEO of Cork City Council to get other cycle lanes segregated, the only ones who the Gardai take action on for parking in a traffic lane is the truck/van or whatever it might be, i got a ticket for doing it outside Tiger Electronics in 2016 as there were cars in the loading bays, i had my day in court and left with my reputation intact. Enforcement is not entirely a problem in itself, it's most of the old skool cops don't want to deal with it, rather a probationer or a rookie will take it to task alot quicker than someone with 10/20 in the job.

Lord god imagine if Terry Shannon was on boards what he'd say :pac:

It's a constant struggle with the council and Gardai to get action taken. Segregation would help.

In fairness we've made bits of progress here and there in Cork with the help of a few different campaign groups and cllrs. Long way to go though.

CramCycle

Blueshoe wrote: »

There aren't alternatives. No parking or loading bays available. Heavy traffic and many stops to be made.
Real life problems that people face.

Just add more loading bays to accommodate the amount of deliveries to an area. I'm sure someone in a department somewhere could gather the data and make suggestions accordingly.

This doesn't have to be an us v them scenario.

It doesn't but your blanketdly ignoring solutions provided without giving examples of why they won't work.

Blueshoe wrote: »

Pick a location. Everyday is different. Could arrive somedays and slip into a loading bay no problem. The next day the same location could have no spaces, lashing rain, heavy traffic and a huge workload to get through.
Ridiculous stress already without cyclists kicking off about it

Then you wait, if its raining wear a rain jacket, traffic being heavy is nowt to do with you.
The example given earlier in another thread was Supervalu Reanelagh. They put up bollards. Low and behold the driver parked on the road and no one died, simples.

I should add, this doesn't bother me as I am an experienced and confident cyclist, I have no issue pulling out into the traffic lane, merging and going around. I had to do it this morning on the N11 where the council had blocked the bus lane, no issue at all. Doesn't mean I'd expect a 12 year old with little experience to do it or someone who can't maintain a high speed to do it either.

The issue is that there hasn't been examples of where adapting your current practices won't work, the issue is that you won't get it done as quick as you want or at the time that you want. That is an issue for your company and until enforcement is ramped up or rules are changed, they won't act on that either.

I still say a delivery time in the wee hours of the morning is the most sensible option. Requires no infrastructure change, risk is reduced as there are simply less people around. Lots of people work nights and if the cost of goods increases because of this, so be it..

Blueshoe

Blueshoe wrote: »

CramCycle wrote: »

It doesn't but your blanketdly ignoring solutions provided without giving examples of why they won't work.

Can you list out the solutions please.

Why not more loading bays? That's the real issue

mvt

CramCycle wrote: »

It doesn't but your blanketdly ignoring solutions provided without giving examples of why they won't work.


Then you wait, if its raining wear a rain jacket, traffic being heavy is nowt to do with you.
The example given earlier in another thread was Supervalu Reanelagh. They put up bollards. Low and behold the driver parked on the road and no one died, simples.

I should add, this doesn't bother me as I am an experienced and confident cyclist, I have no issue pulling out into the traffic lane, merging and going around. I had to do it this morning on the N11 where the council had blocked the bus lane, no issue at all. Doesn't mean I'd expect a 12 year old with little experience to do it or someone who can't maintain a high speed to do it either.

The issue is that there hasn't been examples of where adapting your current practices won't work, the issue is that you won't get it done as quick as you want or at the time that you want. That is an issue for your company and until enforcement is ramped up or rules are changed, they won't act on that either.

I still say a delivery time in the wee hours of the morning is the most sensible option. Requires no infrastructure change, risk is reduced as there are simply less people around. Lots of people work nights and if the cost of goods increases because of this, so be it..

But what happens when the bus/ bike lane is blocked which is going to happen for any amount of reasons over the course of a year?
The twelve year old / inexperienced cyclist is just going to sit & wait?

Also with regards to night time delivery for sure it makes sense except that you will require the driver presently delivering to start working a ridiculous shift?
The premises will also have to have someone present.
I know you said you worked shifts but I've found that most people who advocate such severe changes to work patterns have no intention of doing so themselves.

AndrewJRenko

CramCycle wrote: »

It doesn't but your blanketdly ignoring solutions provided without giving examples of why they won't work.


Then you wait, if its raining wear a rain jacket, traffic being heavy is nowt to do with you.
The example given earlier in another thread was Supervalu Reanelagh. They put up bollards. Low and behold the driver parked on the road and no one died, simples.

.

It's worth remembering that Supervalu have a proper loading dock at the rear. Large trucks might not get through the archway but that's really something for them to sort out with their suppliers.

Why should they be allowed grab public space just for the convenience of delivery crews?

AndrewJRenko

mvt wrote: »

But

Also with regards to night time delivery for sure it makes sense except that you will require the driver presently delivering to start working a ridiculous shift?
The premises will also have to have someone present.
I know you said you worked shifts but I've found that most people who advocate such severe changes to work patterns have no intention of doing so themselves.

It's not up to 'big cycling' to come up with solutions for retail supply chain to stop breaking the law.

The shops themselves need to find a way to do their business without breaking the law.

CramCycle

mvt wrote: »

But what happens when the bus/ bike lane is blocked which is going to happen for any amount of reasons over the course of a year?
The twelve year old / inexperienced cyclist is just going to sit & wait?

Yes, and there is a huge difference betweena DB or similar pulled in for a minute tops and a delivery driver who is "only there for a minute" and leaves 10 minutes later

Also with regards to night time delivery for sure it makes sense except that you will require the driver presently delivering to start working a ridiculous shift?

Depot at the docks (for Dublin), proper planning and they can start their shift at 5 and have a 3 hour window. You could also have evening shifts. Doesn't have to be 1am. Also what time do you think the guys hauling sh1t in on the docks or the airport are working now?

The premises will also have to have someone present.

Yes, price of doing business

I know you said you worked shifts but I've found that most people who advocate such severe changes to work patterns have no intention of doing so themselves.

There are other solutions, this was just one that keeps most of the present day delivery drivers accustomed to the work they do, most would get 8 hours work done in 3 at that time.

Blueshoe wrote: »

Blueshoe wrote: »

Can you list out the solutions please.

Why not more loading bays? That's the real issue

1. Parking somewhere else and carting the stuff over
2. Parking on the main road and not blocking pedestrians or cyclists
3. Sub divide delivery trucks into smaller units so instead of having an 8 wheeler dropping of loads to every shop, Have smaller vans, e-vans or even e-cargo bikes dropping off at those facilities that don't have space for larger drop off vehicles
4. Have a collection point for local shops.

No one will ever do these things, so not sure why Im bothered righting them down. The easiest, simplest, and cost efficient way to do it is delivery out of peak times. Lets say all deliveries between 5am and 8am in all urban areas, you could also possibly do 7pm until 10pm as many shops open late but I am not sure if that works everywhere but presumably there would be more parking available at those times? Shops with off road delivery options can deliver whenever they want.

Blueshoe

CramCycle wrote: »

Yes, and there is a huge difference betweena DB or similar pulled in for a minute tops and a delivery driver who is "only there for a minute" and leaves 10 minutes later

Depot at the docks (for Dublin), proper planning and they can start their shift at 5 and have a 3 hour window. You could also have evening shifts. Doesn't have to be 1am. Also what time do you think the guys hauling sh1t in on the docks or the airport are working now?
Yes, price of doing business
There are other solutions, this was just one that keeps most of the present day delivery drivers accustomed to the work they do, most would get 8 hours work done in 3 at that time.

Blueshoe wrote: »

1. Parking somewhere else and carting the stuff over
2. Parking on the main road and not blocking pedestrians or cyclists
3. Sub divide delivery trucks into smaller units so instead of having an 8 wheeler dropping of loads to every shop, Have smaller vans, e-vans or even e-cargo bikes dropping off at those facilities that don't have space for larger drop off vehicles
4. Have a collection point for local shops.

No one will ever do these things, so not sure why Im bothered righting them down. The easiest, simplest, and cost efficient way to do it is delivery out of peak times. Lets say all deliveries between 5am and 8am in all urban areas, you could also possibly do 7pm until 10pm as many shops open late but I am not sure if that works everywhere but presumably there would be more parking available at those times? Shops with off road delivery options can deliver whenever they want.

Fair enough for laying out those points. It's not going to happen though. Too much disruption for workers and businesses involved in the delivery network. People probably didn't mind so much when these delivery drivers were dropping off food during the pandemic but that's a different story.

I just can't see it happening . The whole delivery infrastructure changing, extra staff, costs etc to suit suit a few people on bicycles.
Nice idea though

mvt

CramCycle wrote: »

Yes, and there is a huge difference betweena DB or similar pulled in for a minute tops and a delivery driver who is "only there for a minute" and leaves 10 minutes later

Depot at the docks (for Dublin), proper planning and they can start their shift at 5 and have a 3 hour window. You could also have evening shifts. Doesn't have to be 1am. Also what time do you think the guys hauling sh1t in on the docks or the airport are working now?
Yes, price of doing business
There are other solutions, this was just one that keeps most of the present day delivery drivers accustomed to the work they do, most would get 8 hours work done in 3 at that time.

Blueshoe wrote: »

1. Parking somewhere else and carting the stuff over
2. Parking on the main road and not blocking pedestrians or cyclists

But you said the council had blocked the bus lane.
There could be any amount of reasons why a bus/bike lane would be blocked,it's not realistic to think they are going to be 100%clear at all times for their designated users-sad but true.

The night shift jobs you quotes are working their pre-agreed shifts-they are not been asked to change.

Would you change your start time to 5am (which means getting up a lot earlier ) because your boss felt it would suit the general public.

Also while you are getting your delivery from CRC from a very grumpy postman or courier at 5am,would you be happy then?


This is in reply to cramcycle ,apologies, seem to have made a mess of the quotes but hopefully you will get my drift & beg for forgiveness

CramCycle

Blueshoe wrote: »

Fair enough for laying out those points. It's not going to happen though. Too much disruption for workers and businesses involved in the delivery network. People probably didn't mind so much when these delivery drivers were dropping off food during the pandemic but that's a different story.

I just can't see it happening . The whole delivery infrastructure changing, extra staff, costs etc to suit suit a few people on bicycles.
Nice idea though

Like I said, its never really bothered me except when someone pulls up on the pavement, that's what bothers me. A van in the bike and traffic lane, I am happy enough to indicate and go around. My pet hate is drivers on footpads, if that disappeared tomorrow I'd stop complaining provided the following was also looked at. So enforce road traffic recommendations on expecting the unexpected, so that if your driving and a delivery truck is in the bike lane/traffic lane and parked, expect that the bike coming upto it is going to merge out. Not much different to how now when you are driving and you see a pedestrian on the footpath, it is reasonable to expect that jogger to be in the bike lane and so to expect the cyclist to move out into traffic to give them both space and you driver accordingly.

Blueshoe

mvt wrote: »

CramCycle wrote: »

Yes, and there is a huge difference betweena DB or similar pulled in for a minute tops and a delivery driver who is "only there for a minute" and leaves 10 minutes later

Depot at the docks (for Dublin), proper planning and they can start their shift at 5 and have a 3 hour window. You could also have evening shifts. Doesn't have to be 1am. Also what time do you think the guys hauling sh1t in on the docks or the airport are working now?
Yes, price of doing business
There are other solutions, this was just one that keeps most of the present day delivery drivers accustomed to the work they do, most would get 8 hours work done in 3 at that time.

Blueshoe wrote: »

1. Parking somewhere else and carting the stuff over
2. Parking on the main road and not blocking pedestrians or cyclists

But you said the council had blocked the bus lane.
There could be any amount of reasons why a bus/bike lane would be blocked,it's not realistic to think they are going to be 100%clear at all times for their designated users-sad but true.

The night shift jobs you quotes are working their pre-agreed shifts-they are not been asked to change.

Would you change your start time to 5am (which means getting up a lot earlier ) because your boss felt it would suit the general public.

Also while you are getting your delivery from CRC from a very grumpy postman or courier at 5am,would you be happy then?


This is in reply to cramcycle ,apologies, seem to have made a mess of the quotes but hopefully you will get my drift & beg for forgiveness

Did I do that? Lol I was wondering what was going on. I think I deleted a line or something earlier on. Seemed to have snowballed.
My bad

mvt

It's no wonder I only post every five years or so- can never figure out a feckin computer

Mc Love

Just mind-boggling

https://twitter.com/SamMcCormack97/status/1263855749404524544?s=20