GSOC says Gardai can exercise discretion in parking enforcement

AndrewJRenko

Blueshoe wrote: »

I just can't see it happening . The whole delivery infrastructure changing, extra staff, costs etc to suit suit a few people on bicycles.
Nice idea though

Just to be clear - it's not about 'suiting a few people on bicycles'. It is about obeying the law. It is about ensuring that people with kids can cycle safely, and that kids can cycle safely on their own. It is about ensuring that less confident cyclists can cycle safely.

For the record, more people cycle commute into Dublin than use Luas, DART and suburban rail combined. Cycle commuting is not a niche activity.

Cork Trucker

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

It's a constant struggle with the council and Gardai to get action taken. Segregation would help.

In fairness we've made bits of progress here and there in Cork with the help of a few different campaign groups and cllrs. Long way to go though.

The wants of all will be difficult to achieve, take the hotspot that is South Main Street, where admittedly trucks have offended, which is highlighted alot on Twitter, with 2 car parks in such close proximity there should be zero private parking on the street, make the parking spaces a loading bay and outside of those hours a taxi rank or something of beneficial use, this would kill two birds with one stone, also it might help the likes of Susan Ryan's business get their deliveries in a more orderly fashion. I could be bold and say a with flow bus lane outside the hours of a loading bay but unsure if it would be viable. Similar could be done with Tuckey Street/Sullivan's Quay/Frenches Quay, no need for non residental parking around there, i know the Q-Park is expensive but the other one is reasonable. Only exceptions could be disabled parking, again enforcement would need to be ramped up. Probably talking jibberish but not all might be?

Chiparus

The enquiry into Garda corruption mentioned the cycle lane non-enforcement as a symptom of the malaise that is endemic in the force.

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/parking-cycle-lanes-dublin/

Wishbone Ash

Parking some distance away is not just inconvenient but often physically limiting. I've done deliveries and it's virtually impossible to drag a 500kg loaded pallet up or down an incline with a manual pallet truck.

Now, before people ask why the load is not organised better, many delivery drivers are contracted and don't know in advance what they are getting or where it has to go. A forklift driver will throw the pallets onto the truck and you're on your own after that to get the stuff out under a deadline. It's a very stressful job at times.

Regarding Centra/Super Valu etc., just because the truck is done up in the shop's livery, it doesn't mean it's owned or operated by the shop. Some of the contracts are done with the livery as part of the deal even though the truck is privately owned. If the contracted driver parks illegally, it may have nothing to do with SuperValu. If An post was delivering a parcel to your house, you are not responsible for how the driver parks.

AndrewJRenko

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Parking some distance away is not just inconvenient but often physically limiting. I've done deliveries and it's virtually impossible to drag a 500kg loaded pallet up or down an incline with a manual pallet truck.

Now, before people ask why the load is not organised better, many delivery drivers are contracted and don't know in advance what they are getting or where it has to go. A forklift driver will throw the pallets onto the truck and you're on your own after that to get the stuff out under a deadline. It's a very stressful job at times.

Regarding Centra/Super Valu etc., just because the truck is done up in the shop's livery, it doesn't mean it's owned or operated by the shop. Some of the contracts are done with the livery as part of the deal even though the truck is privately owned. If the contracted driver parks illegally, it may have nothing to do with SuperValu. If An post was delivering a parcel to your house, you are not responsible for how the driver parks.

I don't doubt what you say, but these problems are not insurmountable. This isn't world peace or third world poverty. If a manual pallet truck won't cut it, maybe you need a powered pallet truck. If the truck isn't loaded property, then it CAN be loaded properly. These situations happen because they're allowed to happen. If truck drivers started getting penalty points for illegal parking on paths or bike lanes or clearways, other ways would very soon be found. They might involve extra cost or extra time - but so be it. That's the cost of doing business legally.

magicbastarder

there are quite a few issues drivers have to deal with, i suspect; i mentioned here last summer or the summer before that i brought to the attention of a garda that the tyres on a grab truck belonging to a well known construction company were bald (we'll put aside the fact that if i'd brought the fact that the truck was parked half on a cycle lane, half on a footpath, the garda would in all likelihood have ignored me).

anyway, the issue there is that the driver is the one legally responsible for the condition of the vehicle, unless there's an exception i don't know about. had that driver turned up for work that morning, to be told to take truck G, and complained he couldn't drive it because of the tyres, i'm sure they'd have found a more willing driver.

anyway, i digress.

saccades

magicbastarder wrote: »

the problem is that many road designers don't build loading bays into their designs, there's been a laissez fare attitude of 'sure people will work around it' which has helped lead us here.

Cherrywood business park has managed to design cycle paths that are actually loading bays - it's almost genius.

Build a narrow road with a central median, then next to it a cycle lane that has low curbs only where there are the entrances to offices.

The footpaths are miles wide. Oh and stick some give way signs in there so that cyclists have no reason to use the lanes.

Such an opportunity lost - god knows what they have in store for the other part with the flats and schools.


I'd rather deliveries outside commuting hours allowing them to use cycle lanes, so inside business hours but more separated from most users, quieter roads would mean easier to switch cycle lane to road and back.

Icepick

In the first place, cycle lanes need to be built and not painted. Will take a lot of illegal parking on them away.

ED E

The pallet argument is correct but silly. The majority of blockers are not delivering pallets. It's a butcher with a dolly, a UPS guy with a parcel, launderettes are always at it. The pallets/cages come off larger vehicles which 9 times in 10 have a dock or goods entrance.

AndrewJRenko

Blueshoe wrote: »

But there isn't an alternative. Until many many more loading bays are placed nothing will change. It can't

In fairness, several alternatives have been set out, but you've ruled them out because of the minor inconvenience to drivers. There are alternatives. They just require a different way of doing things.

Blueshoe

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

In fairness, several alternatives have been set out, but you've ruled them out because of the minor inconvenience to drivers. There are alternatives. They just require a different way of doing things.

Some of the suggestions were drivers start work at 1am and work throughout the night .
Others included shops and businesses employing someone to take in a delivery at 4am

Minor inconveniences. Minor when someone else has to do it.
Install many many more loading bays or nothing changes.

markpb

Blueshoe wrote: »

Some of the suggestions were drivers start work at 1am and work throughout the night .
Others included shops and businesses employing someone to take in a delivery at 4am

Minor inconveniences. Minor when someone else has to do it.
Install many many more loading bays or nothing changes.

You’ve already said you won’t be inconvenienced by having to cart deliveries even a short distance and there’s never going to be a loading bay outside every shop so the only solution needed is to park on the road.

Darc19

robinbird wrote: »

So parking in cycle lanes is an illegal activity but AGS have the discretion as to whether or not they can ignore it. But does this discretion apply to other illegal actions e.g. if a garda observes someone killing someone does he have the discretion to decide whether or not to ignore it. Is there a list of illegal activities for which gardai have this discretion?

I suggest you look up catastrophe syndrome.


Maybe gardai should stop and charge every cyclist that goes through a red light or cycles on a path.

Surely that should be in your same group of offences as murder?


And you wonder why some people have such distain for some cyclists.

magicbastarder

Darc19 - hello and welcome to the cycling forum. please read the charter, with particular reference to negativity towards cyclists.
everyone else, please don't respond to that post.

Darc19, if you've any questions about the charter, feel free to PM me.

Blueshoe

markpb wrote: »

You’ve already said you won’t be inconvenienced by having to cart deliveries even a short distance and there’s never going to be a loading bay outside every shop so the only solution needed is to park on the road.

Nobody is asking for a loading bay outside every shop. An adequate number to allow the thousands of daily delivery vans to stop for 10 mins within a reasonable distance is needed.

If this doesn't happen then nothing changes. The stress of delivering will continue and cyclists will have to go around. Such is life

When it boils down to it we both want the same thing.

markpb

Blueshoe wrote: »

Nobody is asking for a loading bay outside every shop. An adequate number to allow the thousands of daily delivery vans to stop for 10 mins within a reasonable distance is needed.

If this doesn't happen then nothing changes. The stress of delivering will continue and cyclists will have to go around. Such is life

When it boils down to it we both want the same thing.

Someone else in this thread claimed that Tesco have a policy of keeping the truck in sight at all times. That means the loading bay must be right outside which isn’t feasible so those drivers will either stop on the road (legally) or park on the cycle lane and footpath (illegally and dangerously).

To be honest, I don’t care where you park just like I don’t care where anyone else parks. I just want you to do it legally and safely.

Blueshoe

markpb wrote: »

Someone else in this thread claimed that Tesco have a policy of keeping the truck in sight at all times. That means the loading bay must be right outside which isn’t feasible so those drivers will either stop on the road (legally) or park on the cycle lane and footpath (illegally and dangerously).

To be honest, I don’t care where you park just like I don’t care where anyone else parks. I just want you to do it legally and safely.

Maybe we are talking about different vehicle types. I'm not talking about big lorries. If they park over a cycle lane they block up both road and footpath. I'm more so talking about ford transit or Renault traffic low payload delivery vehicles.

They need loading bays. Their aren't enough

Curb Your Enthusiasm

Again you're making a choice to block vulnerable road users rather than the driving lane on the road. You are making that choice personally. Park on the road.

If a cyclist is hit, injured or worse attempting to swerve around your vehicle it'll be a lot more than an inconvenience for you and the company you work for.

Just use the roadway. Cars can go around, right?

Blueshoe

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Again you're making a choice to block vulnerable road users rather than the driving lane on the road. You are making that choice personally. Park on the road.

If a cyclist is hit, injured or worse attempting to swerve around your vehicle it'll be a lot more than an inconvenience for you and the company you work for.

Just use the roadway. Cars can go around, right?

I se your point. To solve this issue add more loading bays.
Win win

Hurrache

If there's a loading bay 100 metres down from the store someone is delivering from, they won't use it.

Blueshoe

Hurrache wrote: »

If there's a loading bay 100 metres down from the store someone is delivering from, they won't use it.

100 meters? If that was the case I would use it. I only deliver small light products

Hurrache

As photos on this thread alone show though you'd be in the minority in doing so.

Blueshoe

Hurrache wrote: »

As photos on this thread alone show though you'd be in the minority in doing so.

Unlikely because the vast majority of loading bays I come across are occupied. I think you might be underestimating the number of delivery vehicles and overestimating the number of loading bays

Hurrache

We'll go around in circles, but we know that many delivery drivers don't care where they park, once it's outside the front door of where they're delivering to.

Blueshoe

Hurrache wrote: »

We'll go around in circles, but we know that many delivery drivers don't care where they park, once it's outside the front door of where they're delivering to.

I'm sure there are people like that. For sure. But I am telling you from first hand experience that there are nowhere close to the required amount of loading bays. Nowhere close.

Gardai should fine individuals for parking in the cycle lane but not until there are realistic alternatives. I would suspect this has been spoken about behind closed doors by those who make the decisions. A rock and a hard place

Hurrache

You can't base the enforcement of the law on the basis of something that is not required in order to abide by that law. However Gardai in Ireland have always been poor when it comes to road traffic laws anyway.

You probably have a large problem with the abuse of loading bays, maybe concentrate on having it out with those people making your life difficult, instead of making cyclists lives more difficult and don't use tolerate the excuse that there's nothing else to do.

Mc Love

I dont get why you just dont park in the road and be done with it (and this discussion)? Even if there were extra loading bays (dont come to Limerick, we use them for private parking) parking in the road is the safest option for all.

markpb

I drove through Sandyford this morning - a four lane road with a cycle lane at either side. A small truck was delivering to Londis Apex. Where did he pull up? In the cycle lane. In a protected cycle lane, on top of the wands. Because there's no way he could block one of the four vehicle lanes in a pandemic when those lanes are completely and utterly devoid of traffic - that would be unconscionable.

The one and only time the Gardai enforced that cycle lane, people parked in it right beside them. Imagine breaking the law in front of a guard enforcing that very law. It's not that those people are wreckless, it genuinely didn't occur to them that it was the wrong thing to do.

This isn't about loading bays, it's about people not even seeing a problem with parking on the cycle lane or footpath because they've been conditioned to see cars are being more important and blocking cars as a bad thing.

CrankyHaus

markpb wrote: »

This isn't about loading bays, it's about people not even seeing a problem with parking on the cycle lane or footpath because they've been conditioned to see cars are being more important and blocking cars as a bad thing.

Yeah it's a cultural problem that permeates across motorists, Gardai and the authorities. Otherwise reasonable people who simply can't shake-off a mentality that cyclists are irritating pests rather than vulnerable road users with rights.



I once politely asked a woman not to park on the cycle lane as I passed. Her response was that she had to drop off children, as if that was a rock solid justification.

Wishbone Ash

Mc Love wrote: »

I dont get why you just dont park in the road and be done with it (and this discussion)? Even if there were extra loading bays (dont come to Limerick, we use them for private parking) parking in the road is the safest option for all.

Totally disagree. I'd much prefer to go around the right side of a vehicle where there may be loading/unloading activity than go up the inside of it..