Circular Number: 0037/2020

Hangup

First time poster!
As a parent of a LC student, I think you’re all amazing.
I would hate to be a LC teacher at the moment.
What an awful job you’ve been asked to do.
Thank you for doing it......you’re definitely on the front/firing line and you’re not even being mentioned. Well done!

Treppen

Hangup wrote: »

First time poster!
As a parent of a LC student, I think you’re all amazing.
I would hate to be a LC teacher at the moment.
What an awful job you’ve been asked to do.
Thank you for doing it......you’re definitely on the front/firing line and you’re not even being mentioned. Well done!

Tough on the students too, it's like their school year just fizzled out and dissolved into nothing.
Even though I'm not the most religious or one for putting on the ritz, it's still important to have the ceremonies and time for reflections and farewells etc.

linguist

Hangup wrote: »

First time poster!
As a parent of a LC student, I think you’re all amazing.
I would hate to be a LC teacher at the moment.
What an awful job you’ve been asked to do.
Thank you for doing it......you’re definitely on the front/firing line and you’re not even being mentioned. Well done!

I think we all enormously appreciate that not least because of course you have skin in the game as the parent of a LC student and you must be terribly anxious about how it's going to play out. I'm afraid there's no way of knowing what will happen when the data goes into the Department. But it is lovely to read a supportive comment from someone in your position because we absolutely know how tough it is for the students. Sadly, the teacher-bashing that is going on is really not helping our morale at the moment and I do wish more parents would make a stand and remind people that we are just ordinary people doing our jobs and nothing ever prepared us to make these decisions in respect of our own students. Every best wish to you and your son/daughter.

Bobtheman

We are all during our best but the process is farcical.
The direction to destroy data proves it. The fact this is all to be done by next week shows they don't want you to think it over too much.
I hope most students get what they want course wise.
Don't make the mistake of descending into rationality when trying to explain this.
I would have taken more time to figure out a better system or made the LC happen. It was possible.
Adieu.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Bobtheman wrote: »

We are all during our best but the process is farcical.
The direction to destroy data proves it. The fact this is all to be done by next week shows they don't want you to think it over too much.
I hope most students get what they want course wise.
Don't make the mistake of descending into rationality when trying to explain this.
I would have taken more time to figure out a better system or made the LC happen. It was possible.
Adieu.

To be fair I spent 2 weeks getting results ready. Spend more time than that at it and it's overkill

linguist

What is being completely lost here is that the destruction of working documents is part and parcel of the State exams process every year and it's about time the DES and SEC came out and backed us here. In my subject area (languages), we would have the following:

draft marking scheme and successive revisions
control sheets for recording and updating draft marks given to candidates
various examplars of standard gone through at the marking conference
notes taken at the marking conference
standardisation CD of previous candidate performance for oral exams etc.

All of these are either returned to the SEC or securely destroyed by the examiner at the end of the process. Now obviously, the difference normally is that the candidate has produced a script which they can view. However, in informing their appeal, they have access to their final mark and the final published marking scheme. The amount of information they don't have access to and the chopping and changing that saw marks bumped up or pulled down would shock them. So this is really just an extension of the same principle: that the individual examiner is protected because they are carrying out a State function and the State issues the final outcome. And yes, the whole thing is a farce: it's playing darts blindfolded. But for God's sake, where are our unions not to mention those whose ultimate job it is to protect us - the DES - to point out that this kind of thing happens in a different context every single year?

Bobtheman

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

To be fair I spent 2 weeks getting results ready. Spend more time than that at it and it's overkill

A statement like that needs clarification. What is your subject ? What records ?

Bobtheman

linguist wrote: »

What is being completely lost here is that the destruction of working documents is part and parcel of the State exams process every year and it's about time the DES and SEC came out and backed us here. In my subject area (languages), we would have the following:

draft marking scheme and successive revisions
control sheets for recording and updating draft marks given to candidates
various examplars of standard gone through at the marking conference
notes taken at the marking conference
standardisation CD of previous candidate performance for oral exams etc.

All of these are either returned to the SEC or securely destroyed by the examiner at the end of the process. Now obviously, the difference normally is that the candidate has produced a script which they can view. However, in informing their appeal, they have access to their final mark and the final published marking scheme. The amount of information they don't have access to and the chopping and changing that saw marks bumped up or pulled down would shock them. So this is really just an extension of the same principle: that the individual examiner is protected because they are carrying out a State function and the State issues the final outcome. And yes, the whole thing is a farce: it's playing darts blindfolded. But for God's sake, where are our unions not to mention those whose ultimate job it is to protect us - the DES - to point out that this kind of thing happens in a different context every single year?

The process that happens every year is quite different. Firstly you get a couple of days training. Secondly there is an exam to correct that has been done in a hall. Thirdly there is a supervising examiner. Lastly there is an appeal process on the objectively written exam .

jimmytwotimes 2013

Bobtheman wrote: »

A statement like that needs clarification. What is your subject ? What records ?

What subjects? None of your business.

Records? all house exams on vsware, averaged out, class ranked and based on that. Professional judgement on how each student was working. Followed Dept guidelines.

What else do we have to go on?

Bobtheman

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

What subjects? None of your business.

Records? all house exams on vsware, averaged out, class ranked and based on that. Professional judgement on how each student was working. Followed Dept guidelines.

What else do we have to go on?

What you said makes sense. Don't be paranoid. The only reason I asked about subject is that subjects vary. In terms of predicting. The process you described is the same one I applied and that doesn't take two weeks it takes a day or two. When I said it should be longer - I meant a different process. One more rounded . But that's for the guys on 150k to come up with not moi. A foot soldier.

linguist

Bobtheman wrote: »

The process that happens every year is quite different. Firstly you get a couple of days training. Secondly there is an exam to correct that has been done in a hall. Thirdly there is a supervising examiner. Lastly there is an appeal process on the objectively written exam .

I'm not disputing that for a second. This calculated grades nonsense is, as I've said, playing darts blindfolded. But your point isn't relevant to what I was saying which is simply that any other year a range of working documents that examiners use is destroyed. Certain advice given at marking conferences never appears written down in the published marking scheme and hugely directs examiners in what is being looked for. Ever have a student appeal something you were convinced would go up only for it to stay the same? I certainly have.

Bobtheman

linguist wrote: »

I'm not disputing that for a second. This calculated grades nonsense is, as I've said, playing darts blindfolded. But your point isn't relevant to what I was saying which is simply that any other year a range of working documents that examiners use is destroyed. Certain advice given at marking conferences never appears written down in the published marking scheme and hugely directs examiners in what is being looked for. Ever have a student appeal something you were convinced would go up only for it to stay the same? I certainly have.

Points accepted

linguist

One thing I'd like to think most of us learned early in our careers, and maybe even before, is that you can get away with saying quite a bit but be very careful with every single thing you write down. Lawyer-columnists in newspapers are absolutely queuing up to attack various aspects of this calculated grades situation. We all know it is a load of rubbish. We can't predict grades. I already said it was like playing darts blindfolded. To be honest, it's almost more like asking Mrs Doyle to guess Fr Todd Unctuous's name in Father Ted. It's all very fine our unions playing ball with this and the Minister saying we've indemnity and everything else. At the end of the day it's my name and yours that are going on these forms and it'll be you and me called before the High Court if the ambulance chasers decide to run test cases on a no win no fee basis. Are we completely and utterly bonkers? It's not only about indemnity, it's about your name in the media, your professional reputation being pilloried, the invasion of your privacy and, might I add, the possibility for an adverse finding by a judge regarding your work to result in a complaint to the Teaching Council which nobody seems to have thought of. Because you certainly don't have to be convicted of a criminal offence or come out on the wrong side of a civil case for the Teaching Council to look at a complaint against you and consider whether it falls foul of their own professional standards. I've known plenty of lawyers over my career: parents of kids, personal friends etc. They will always say: watch what you say but above all what you write.

Bobtheman

linguist wrote: »

One thing I'd like to think most of us learned early in our careers, and maybe even before, is that you can get away with saying quite a bit but be very careful with every single thing you write down. Lawyer-columnists in newspapers are absolutely queuing up to attack various aspects of this calculated grades situation. We all know it is a load of rubbish. We can't predict grades. I already said it was like playing darts blindfolded. To be honest, it's almost more like asking Mrs Doyle to guess Fr Todd Unctuous's name in Father Ted. It's all very fine our unions playing ball with this and the Minister saying we've indemnity and everything else. At the end of the day it's my name and yours that are going on these forms and it'll be you and me called before the High Court if the ambulance chasers decide to run test cases on a no win no fee basis. Are we completely and utterly bonkers? It's not only about indemnity, it's about your name in the media, your professional reputation being pilloried, the invasion of your privacy and, might I add, the possibility for an adverse finding by a judge regarding your work to result in a complaint to the Teaching Council which nobody seems to have thought of. Because you certainly don't have to be convicted of a criminal offence or come out on the wrong side of a civil case for the Teaching Council to look at a complaint against you and consider whether it falls foul of their own professional standards. I've known plenty of lawyers over my career: parents of kids, personal friends etc. They will always say: watch what you say but above all what you write.

I think you might be exaggerating but so long as all teachers in a subject area' have signed off I think there will be no legal cases. In other words so long as communication kept in school it should be fine. Legal cases in education are rare enough when you consider the shoe string it's been run on.

linguist

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think you might be exaggerating but so long as all teachers in a subject area' have signed off I think there will be no legal cases. In other words so long as communication kept in school it should be fine. Legal cases in education are rare enough when you consider the shoe string it's been run on.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. What evidence do you have do back that up? You are relying on blind faith and optimism there and that won't do. We are replacing nearly a century of experience with a trusted State exam, whatever its faults, with a guessing game and, as I've said, it's clear that lawyers are already licking their lips with glee. The one thing that could keep this out of the courts is the fact that all candidates can sit the LC ultimately if they wish however I can see plenty of legal cases being launched in advance of that whether any eventually make it to court or not. In retrospect, every candidate should have been made to sign a waiver saying that they accepted that disputes would be resolved by recourse to the appeals process built into this system and that ultimately they could sit the LC if they are unhappy. They should have been made to sign away their right to take legal proceedings in respect of this process as a condition for signing up to it. That, along with an indemnity, is what we should have sought.

mtoutlemonde

linguist wrote: »

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. What evidence do you have do back that up? You are relying on blind faith and optimism there and that won't do. We are replacing nearly a century of experience with a trusted State exam, whatever its faults, with a guessing game and, as I've said, it's clear that lawyers are already licking their lips with glee. The one thing that could keep this out of the courts is the fact that all candidates can sit the LC ultimately if they wish however I can see plenty of legal cases being launched in advance of that whether any eventually make it to court or not. In retrospect, every candidate should have been made to sign a waiver saying that they accepted that disputes would be resolved by recourse to the appeals process built into this system and that ultimately they could sit the LC if they are unhappy. They should have been made to sign away their right to take legal proceedings in respect of this process as a condition for signing up to it. That, along with an indemnity, is what we should have sought.

Would that have been possible though as not every candidate is 18 years old?

linguist

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Would that have been possible though as not every candidate is 18 years old?

Fair point. If they're under 18, their parent/guardian could have signed the waver. In any case, to the best of my knowledge, being under 18 didn't stop them signing up to this process with all the implications it has for them.

mtoutlemonde

linguist wrote: »

Fair point. If they're under 18, their parent/guardian could have signed the waver. In any case, to the best of my knowledge, being under 18 didn't stop them signing up to this process with all the implications it has for them.

Well I suppose it is the idea of signing a contract with the DES/SEC when they are in fact minors. 'I didn't really understand what I was doing', 'I was forced into it', 'I didn't have time to fully understand what I was signing', 'Daddy's legal team didn't have enough time' etc. Excuses would come flooding in.

I also remember the term 'legal enfant' from my days in business class. So I think the idea of signing away 'rights' would have been dangerous for DES in the future.

linguist

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

Well I suppose it is the idea of signing a contract with the DES/SEC when they are in fact minors. 'I didn't really understand what I was doing', 'I was forced into it', 'I didn't have time to fully understand what I was signing', 'Daddy's legal team didn't have enough time' etc. Excuses would come flooding in.

I also remember the term 'legal enfant' from my days in business class. So I think the idea of signing away 'rights' would have been dangerous for DES in the future.

As I said, the parent/guardian could have been asked to sign the waiver. I just feel that there are two ways of looking at this, 1) we are doing them a massive favour for which we are frankly getting nothing but ongoing grief from certain quarters, 2) we are potentially doing them harm by engaging in this process, however we are doing it entirely at the Minister's behest and he is the one who should be answerable in all cases.

I mean, it is incredible when you think that sizeable numbers of students demanded predicted grades, the Minister caved in, the DES (the Inspectorate with SEC input) drew up the guidelines and instructions and yet it is the humble teachers on the ground who are now being threatened with legal action in the press and on the airwaves day in and day out. I hope at least some people from the unions keep an eye on what's being discussed here because I for one say that either the bashing stops or we should say 'deal's off'.

Leftwaffe

Anyone else doing examinations aide? I am and I have zero idea what it's going to entail. Don't think anyone knows. Got a broad list of jobs it might consist of but nothing concrete. No time frame given or paperwork signed. Don't know when I'm starting even.

doc_17

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Anyone else doing examinations aide? I am and I have zero idea what it's going to entail. Don't think anyone knows. Got a broad list of jobs it might consist of but nothing concrete. No time frame given or paperwork signed. Don't know when I'm starting even.

I’d say it’ll be handy this year. No exams to aide. Some paperwork, good year to get it.

LW2018

A friend / colleague is doing it but like that she hasn't received anything. She said there was a list of work that the exam aide could be involved in (an all or some of the list) type scenario. There is to be a circular around this with rate of pay / duties etc but I'd envisage it will be open-ended and left to each school to best utilise.

First job will likely being letting other teachers know if a student has changed levels from the Portal - which I assume schools will have / get access to tomorrow?

Do you usually do the work of Exam Aide in the school?

LW2018

doc_17 wrote: »

I’d say it’ll be handy this year. No exams to aide. Some paperwork, good year to get it.

Unless you're the designated person to enter every result for every student in every subject. There will be a lot of cross-checking I'm sure. Even if every result has been documented carefully in each department... these will still have to be double and triple checked.

Leftwaffe

LW2018 wrote: »

A friend / colleague is doing it but like that she hasn't received anything. She said there was a list of work that the exam aide could be involved in (an all or some of the list) type scenario. There is to be a circular around this with rate of pay / duties etc but I'd envisage it will be open-ended and left to each school to best utilise.

First job will likely being letting other teachers know if a student has changed levels from the Portal - which I assume schools will have / get access to tomorrow?

Do you usually do the work of Exam Aide in the school?

Yeah I seen the possible list of jobs alright. It my first time to do it to be honest, God knows what I will be doing. So schools are getting access to levels via the portal tomorrow?

Id imagine the aide will be dealing with form C and D also.

LW2018

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

Yeah I seen the possible list of jobs alright. It my first time to do it to be honest, God knows what I will be doing. So schools are getting access to levels via the portal tomorrow?

Id imagine the aide will be dealing with form C and D also.

It isn't comparable to the traditional exam aide work really so I wouldn't worry about it being your first time. Form C will be a role for the exam aide - don't know how it will completely work without having contact with students (to accertain who their tutor is etc)... Form D will be at the Principal's discretion though but there will be assistance in that. Have your school started many of the Subject Alignment meetings? Maybe you'll be scheduling these

Leftwaffe

LW2018 wrote: »

It isn't comparable to the traditional exam aide work really so I wouldn't worry about it being your first time. Form C will be a role for the exam aide - don't know how it will completely work without having contact with students (to accertain who their tutor is etc)... Form D will be at the Principal's discretion though but there will be assistance in that. Have your school started many of the Subject Alignment meetings? Maybe you'll be scheduling these

I believe I may have to contact tutors to ascertain how they arrived at their estimated grade. Asking them what assessments etc they used. This was mentioned to me but I can't see how something like that would be expected of the exam aide? Maybe I'm wrong. Students have been in touch with me with contact details of their external tutors.

SAG meetings are largely over, subject dept meetings organised them themselves so that doesn't need to be done. Wonder how much I can do from home. Don't fancy being in the school too often tbh.

LW2018

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

I believe I may have to contact tutors to ascertain how they arrived at their estimated grade. Asking them what assessments etc they used. This was mentioned to me but I can't see how something like that would be expected of the exam aide? Maybe I'm wrong. Students have been in touch with me with contact details of their external tutors.

SAG meetings are largely over, subject dept meetings organised them themselves so that doesn't need to be done. Wonder how much I can do from home. Don't fancy being in the school too often tbh.

My colleague hasn't had any contact with students as they aren't aware who the exam aide is as of yet... A large number of SAG meetings still to happen in our place. I'd think a lot of it will be done remotely unless entering the results into the portal is a part of the job description and maybe that needs to be done with the P or the DP. Don't think they've announced the rate of pay either yet.

Did the usual Exam Aide not want the position or how was it offered in your place? It went to our usual exam aide and nobody questioned it. The circular might arrive tomorrow or else Principals could have received it but didn't want to send over the BHol weekend?

Leftwaffe

LW2018 wrote: »

My colleague hasn't had any contact with students as they aren't aware who the exam aide is as of yet... A large number of SAG meetings still to happen in our place. I'd think a lot of it will be done remotely unless entering the results into the portal is a part of the job description and maybe that needs to be done with the P or the DP. Don't think they've announced the rate of pay either yet.

Did the usual Exam Aide not want the position or how was it offered in your place? It went to our usual exam aide and nobody questioned it. The circular might arrive tomorrow or else Principals could have received it but didn't want to send over the BHol weekend?

The students have been made aware of who the exam aide is in our school. Never heard anything about pay yet either, totally in the dark. But it will replace superintending which I normally do.

The position was offered to our staff and I don't believe there were many interested at all. Usual aide not available. I would hope to have more details via a circular tomorrow but wouldn't rely on it.

LW2018

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

The students have been made aware of who the exam aide is in our school. Never heard anything about pay yet either, totally in the dark. But it will replace superintending which I normally do.

The position was offered to our staff and I don't believe there were many interested at all. Usual aide not available. I would hope to have more details via a circular tomorrow but wouldn't rely on it.

A lot of it is just “making it up as they go along”... they’ll have to leave the range of duties open to suit different schools. How did you find the SAG meeting? Having my one this week

jimmytwotimes 2013

We getting levels today, does anyone know?