Ahmaud Arbery

Overheal

Danzy wrote: »

It may, he was known for having serious gun crime conviction,

Serious gun crime conviction? Lol

The gun wasn’t involved in any sort of violent crime. Or, crime at all tbf, other than it being on him at a basketball game.

he was known in the locality for his criminality and repeat targeting of that area, among others.

misleading at best.

He was known to the McMichaels. They were involved in a prosecution for petty shoplifting at a Target. In 2018.

No other criminality.

None of which btw is germane to the application of the citizens arrest statute.

It is however germane to establishing the McMichaels had a vendetta against Arbery.

It was certainly correct to approach him armed and presuming he was armed, given his history , pulling the trigger, persuing him, was that correct, maybe, maybe not.

It wasn’t correct at all in fact. They didn’t have lawful grounds to initiate a citizens arrest as they claim ex post facto.

Add to that citizens arrest is never mentioned to 911 or to Arbery.

Danzy

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Usually if you suspect that a person is armed and dangerous it's "don't approach, call the police" mantra?

Ideally.

Guy:Incognito

Danzy wrote: »

Ideally.

Literally the easiest thing to do would be to not get in your car and go chasing him.

but if you insist on chasing him, the next easiest thing to do is stay in the car.

There was no need to get out.

The police arrived very soon after the shooting. They were on the phone to the call centre so they knew someone was on the way.

NackJapier

Overheal wrote: »

Serious gun crime conviction? Lol

The gun wasn’t involved in any sort of violent crime. Or, crime at all tbf, other than it being on him at a basketball game.

misleading at best.

He was known to the McMichaels. They were involved in a prosecution for petty shoplifting at a Target. In 2018.

No other criminality.

None of which btw is germane to the application of the citizens arrest statute.

It is however germane to establishing the McMichaels had a vendetta against Arbery.



It wasn’t correct at all in fact. They didn’t have lawful grounds to initiate a citizens arrest as they claim ex post facto.

Add to that citizens arrest is never mentioned to 911 or to Arbery.

On him at a basketball game? A high school basketball game? Why does he need a gun to attend? And why did he run from police at said basketball game when they tried searching him?

Also it I'm a known thief. Snooping around OTHER PEOPLES PROPERTY. After being caught at it already only to do it again.

I DESERVE ALL THE KARMA COMING MY WAY.

Mate your a bit soft defending a black dude thousands of miles away I assume your a social justice warrior when offline also?

MeMen2_MoRi_

Danzy wrote: »

Ideally.

They had ample opportunity to do it, they chose how they went about this, you reap what you sow..

Hopefully many many years behind bars.

Overheal

Snooping around “OTHER PEOPLES PROPERTY” is part of the problem here for the apologists.

You don’t get to be Judge Dredd for your neighbors property. There’s no castle doctrine for property you don’t own.

It also seems to be these people who say this also think these kids should also have “Karma” blow them to pieces too:

https://www.ajc.com/news/crime--law/gbi-reviewing-new-video-footage-ahmaud-arbery-case/xvSWFTbaD0k9cr80R7CTnL/

Edit: https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/05/19/surveillance-footage-shows-multiple-people-went-to-home-that-ahmaud-arbery-visited/

The only way anyone in the neighborhood knew Arbery had a record is because the McMichaels knew him. However, they didn’t reveal this to 911.

[url] https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/08/us/ahmaud-arbery-mcmichael-arrests-friday/index.html[/url]

Gatling

Overheal wrote: »

The only way anyone in the neighborhood knew Arbery had a record is because the McMichaels knew him. However, they didn’t reveal this to 911.

Considering he was removed /sacked as a cop in 2006 it's hard to believe McMichaels actually knew Arbery considering he didn't have an extensive criminal record

Donald Trump

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They were on his land. One in his house by his account iirc.

Thats leagues closer to stand your ground than what happened in this case.

Why not just go by the facts of the case instead of going on about an unrelated case from a different country with not even similar laws?

Hi,


I brought up the Nally case in response to another poster being triggered by my simple saying that if your man was had been acting the bollox then he would have removed some of the blame from the shooters.



I used the Nally example as it is closer to home. Others came back with irrelevant sideline points about self-defense etc.


Note that I never said it would make the shooters blameless. Nor did I say that it was deserved or warranted.


In the Nally case, Frog Ward did not deserve to die for burglary. I do not support the death penalty or anything like that. But Frog Ward holds most of the blame for that incident in my opinion. Saying that he holds most of the blame is not the same as saying he deserved to die for it.
I personally would attribute little of the blame in that incident to Nally.


As I said in an earlier post, the fateful decision in this case was made when they decided to go after your man. Were they justified in doing so? It isn't clear one way or the other. What we do appear to know is that the deceased was trespassing on private property.

In the US, I think it would probably be automatic to arm yourself when taking such an action. Once the fella ran at him, then there was going to have to be someone shot.


The video posted in the OP shows the deceased running out of the house. It also claims to show the people getting into their truck to follow him. Unless there is a timelapse, your man hardly ran 4 miles before they caught up to him!

Donald Trump

Overheal wrote: »

It’s already been well established that the Brunswick police are practically complicit in this murder.

Over on your conspiracy theory forum by any chance?

RasTa

I have never seen so many misplaced ! !

MeMen2_MoRi_

Donald Trump wrote: »

Over on your conspiracy theory forum by any chance?

It's not a conspiracy theory, it's a fact that they sat on this for way too long.

Overheal

Donald Trump wrote: »

Over on your conspiracy theory forum by any chance?

Argumentum ad Hominems aren’t the tip of the spear for any meaningful refutation of the central argument.

Let’s filter through your infantilism a second and reach the question: “Overheal, do you have a source for that please?”

Why yes I do.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/georgia/grand-jury-reports-reveal-ongoing-culture-of-cover-up-failure-to-supervise-abuse-of-power-in-glynn-county-police-department/77-e257e071-acff-4362-9949-70e642b0a797

MeMen2_MoRi_

Overheal wrote: »

Argumentum ad Hominems aren’t the tip of the spear for any meaningful refutation of the central argument.

Let’s filter through your infantilism a second and reach the question: “Overheal, do you have a source for that please?”

Why yes I do.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/georgia/grand-jury-reports-reveal-ongoing-culture-of-cover-up-failure-to-supervise-abuse-of-power-in-glynn-county-police-department/77-e257e071-acff-4362-9949-70e642b0a797

"Access denied" with that link.. Any chance of a C&P? If it's not too long

Overheal

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

"Access denied" with that link.. Any chance of a C&P? If it's not too long

Working fine for me?

https://www.google.com/search?q=brunswick+police+conflict+of+interest&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

Edit:

Grand jury reports: 'Ongoing culture of cover-up, failure to supervise, abuse of power' in Glynn County Police Department

A First Coast News investigation revealed the Arbery case is just the latest in a string of cases that raised concerns about a history of toxic culture and cover-up.


GLYNN COUNTY, Ga. — The Ahmaud Arbery case has trained a spotlight on Glynn County and the work of police and prosecutors in the area.

A First Coast News investigation reveals the Arbery case is just the latest in a string of cases that raised concerns about a history of toxic culture and cover-ups within Glynn County law enforcement; cover-ups that recently led to an explosive grand jury report and criminal indictment of the Glynn County Police Chief and several high ranking officers.

Just within the past two months, concerns that law enforcement in and around Glynn County, Georgia is "compromised" in the Arbery case has been expressed by people around the country after no arrests were made until video of the shooting was leaked and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation was asked to get involved.

Ron Davis, the father of Jordan Davis, is among the dozens of voices calling for a fair and impartial investigation, judge and jury.

"They need to take this case outside of Georgia for the trial," said Davis.

As a father who lost his own son in a deadly shooting in Jacksonville, he says he knows how it feels to not have a fair shake and urges the family to request a change of venue. He echos the concerns of the Arbery's attorneys Ben Crump and Lee Merrit, and local friends of the Arbery family, like Jason Vaughn, who are calling for justice.

"The prosecutorial community in Southeast Georgia is compromised. This is one of their own they are prosecuting," said Merrit.

"Our community as a whole is left asking questions about our policing agency," said Vaughn.

From the start, Arbery’s mother, Wanda Cooper, said police gave her misinformation when they first called, telling her that her son was killed while committing a crime.

"He told me that Ahmaud had been involved in a burglary and in the midst of the burglary, Ahmaud was confronted by the homeowner. And during that confrontation, there was a tussle over the handgun and Ahmaud was shot and killed," said Cooper.

That version of the story doesn't match the police report or the incident caught on camera.

"It's critical to note that the video directly contradicted every statement made to the family," said Merrit.

A series of District Attorneys have either recused themselves or been replaced from the Arbery case due to conflicts of interest.

Greg McMichael, who along with his son Travis is charged with the felony murder of Arbery, is a former Glynn County Police Officer and former longtime Chief Investigator for the local Brunswick District Attorney Jackie Johnson. That relationship is blamed for the two-month gap of inaction between the shooting and their arrest.

Personnel records show Greg McMichael was stripped of his arresting powers as an investigator from 2006 to 2014 and he was briefly suspended for falling behind on required police certifications. A letter shows that Johnson went to bat for him to keep him working.

The records also show he was briefly transferred to Camden County for a while but was not given a weapon.

Part of the training that he missed was "use of deadly force" which he states he missed due to family health reasons.

The Glynn County Police Department garnered national attention back in 2018 as well when Glynn County Police Sergeant Corey Sasser murdered his estranged wife Katie Kettles and her boyfriend before killing himself.

Darren Penn is an Atlanta attorney representing Kettles’ mother, Debra Gann, who is suing the department for mishandling her daughter's case.

"This is a department that is not necessarily following the rules and is kind of made up of a lot of Rogue actors," said Penn. "Mr. Cory Sasser, an incredibly violent and out of control police officer for the Glynn County Police Department. And basically what that case tells is a story of a department that does not follow procedures that is willing to protect its own."

Penn said Kettles complained to the department repeatedly but they failed to arrest Sasser, who was one of their own.

"The parallels are the hesitancy on the part of the police department," said Penn. "Just the overall hesitancy to do anything about it, to investigate them to make any kind of arrests to actually at the end of the day protect the public."

"Katie made the comment that the Glynn County Police Department will do nothing until someone leaves here out of a body bag," said Gann.

Back in 2010, Sasser shot and killed Caroline Small, a 35-year-old unarmed mother of two, in her car.

According to reports, Sasser and another Glynn County officer, Todd Simpson, went on to make false statements that she was dead because her "head exploded." They fired eight shots through her front windshield, ultimately killing her.

An investigation by the Georgia Bureau of Investigation prompted the Glynn County Police Chief at the time to determine Sasser and Simpson acted reasonably because they had perceived the situation as life-threatening, claiming Small’s car was a deadly weapon.

Sasser’s attorney at the time was Alan David Tucker, the same attorney who first spoke out for the McMichaels after the video of the Arbery shooting was made public.

Earlier this year, a grand jury indicted the Glynn County Police Chief and three high-ranking officers on multiple criminal charges, including having sex with confidential informants, violating their oath of office, influencing a witness and criminal attempt to commit a felony. They were placed on leave just five days after Arbery was killed.

The Grand Jury report concluded, "there is an ongoing culture of cover-up, failure to supervise, abuse of power and lack of accountability within the administration of the Glynn County Police Department."

The Arbery case, which was passed through three District Attorneys so far, is now in the hands of a special prosecutor in Cobb County, with help from the Department of Justice and Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

On Thursday Travis McMichael's attorneys asked the public to give his client the "presumption of innocence" until all facts are brought forward in a court of law.

Arbery’s family attorneys responded, saying Arbery himself was not given the same courtesy of a "presumption of innocence" before he was shot to death in the street.

His parents are holding out hope for justice

"I just think about how they could allow these two men to kill my son and not be arrested, that's what I can't understand," said Cooper.

Arbery's father, Marcus, echoes the sentiment of disbelief.

"I want to see them behind bars for the rest of their life. They need to remain behind bars, not coming back," he said.

Just two weeks before Arbery was shot to death, First Coast News learned of a bill in the Georgia General Assembly that could dissolve the Glynn County Police Department altogether. If passed, Glynn County residents, along with 12 other nearby counties, could vote on a ballot to dissolve their local force. Due to COVID-19 it appears to have been tabled for now.

Donald Trump

Overheal wrote: »

Argumentum ad Hominems aren’t the tip of the spear for any meaningful refutation of the central argument.

Let’s filter through your infantilism a second and reach the question: “Overheal, do you have a source for that please?”

Why yes I do.

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/georgia/grand-jury-reports-reveal-ongoing-culture-of-cover-up-failure-to-supervise-abuse-of-power-in-glynn-county-police-department/77-e257e071-acff-4362-9949-70e642b0a797

I don't think you understand what "ad Hominem" means dude.



You said (my emphasis)

It’s already been well established that the Brunswick police are practically complicit in this murder.

You could say that about anyone and anything. Either it was shown to be true or it wasn't. Otherwise they are just weasel words.

osarusan

Overheal wrote: »

Working fine for me?

https://www.google.com/search?q=brunswick+police+conflict+of+interest&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

Possibly a GDPR issue for us European-based users.

Donald Trump

Overheal wrote: »

Working fine for me?

https://www.google.com/search?q=brunswick+police+conflict+of+interest&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

I'd say it's blocked on IP for EU users

Overheal

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't think you understand what "ad Hominem" means dude.

Try me?

Guy:Incognito

Donald Trump wrote: »

In the US, I think it would probably be automatic to arm yourself when taking such an action. Once the fella ran at him, then there was going to have to be someone shot.

Seriously. Whats your angle for wanting to defend them here?

The guy was on a street. One car behind him, one car in front. HE ran around the car in front. Why did Travis McMichael get out of the car he was driving and then why did he go around the drivers door to get to the front of his car when Arbery was running past?

They had guns. They could have sat in their car and watched him. No need whatsoever to get out and confront him. They were on the phone to the police, they knew the police were int he way and not far away.

ohnonotgmail

Donald Trump wrote: »

Hi,


I brought up the Nally case in response to another poster being triggered by my simple saying that if your man was had been acting the bollox then he would have removed some of the blame from the shooters.

your opinion of yourself far exceeds your capacity

Donald Trump

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Seriously. Whats your angle for wanting to defend them here?

I'm not defending anyone. Just because I didn't automatically jump on the "innocent black jogger randomly shot while out for a jog" bandwagon doesn't mean I'm defending the people who shot him. I merely said that if your man had been acting the bollix some of the blame would be on his own shoulders.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The guy was on a street. One car behind him, one car in front. HE ran around the car in front. Why did Travis McMichael get out of the car he was driving and then why did he go around the drivers door to get to the front of his car when Arbery was running past?

Why did he move around to the other side? You'll have to ask him for the exact reason but my guess is that he was trying to stop him from running away.

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

They had guns. They could have sat in their car and watched him. No need whatsoever to get out and confront him. They were on the phone to the police, they knew the police were int he way and not far away.

Yeah but they didn't. They made a bad decision. It doesn't mean that they thought that far ahead and anticipated your man running at them and decided they wanted to shoot him dead before he got out of the car.

Donald Trump

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

your opinion of yourself far exceeds your capacity

Triggered again?

You still didn't answer the simple question about the Nally case.

We can come up with our own assumptions why - because you know my point was correct even though it would contradict with your virtue signalling!

Stateofyou

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yeah but they didn't. They made a bad decision. It doesn't mean that they thought that far ahead and anticipated your man running at them and decided they wanted to shoot him dead before he got out of the car.

On the contrary. Private FB group evidence shows they said they would kill anyone who wasn't wanted in their neighbourhood. They arranged a cameraman. They thought ahead.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm not defending anyone. Just because I didn't automatically jump on the "innocent black jogger randomly shot while out for a jog" bandwagon doesn't mean I'm defending the people who shot him. I merely said that if your man had been acting the bollix some of the blame would be on his own shoulders.




Why did he move around to the other side? You'll have to ask him for the exact reason but my guess is that he was trying to stop him from running away.






Yeah but they didn't. They made a bad decision. It doesn't mean that they thought that far ahead and anticipated your man running at them and decided they wanted to shoot him dead before he got out of the car.

How do you go about stopping a guy running away while holding a gun that needs both hands on it? Leave the gun behind, the father is on the bed of the truck with a hand gun, on the phone with the dispatch also.. it's a case of stupid decision on top of stupid decision that has resulted in the death of Amaud Arbrey. Time to pay the Piper for the stupid mistakes they made that day.

Yes they made bad decisions, that resulted in a confrontation with an unarmed guy, that has resulted in him being shot 3 times. Murder/manslaughter whatever, there was a case to be answered, why it took the release of the video for charges to brought is absolute bollox. It looks like an attempt to "hope this blows over" and we carry on same old same old.

Guy:Incognito

Donald Trump wrote: »

Why did he move around to the other side? You'll have to ask him for the exact reason but my guess is that he was trying to stop him from running away.

Hang on, you said Arbery ran at him. You need to make up your mind.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Once the fella ran at him, then there was going to have to be someone shot.

GY_1980

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

standing over somebody and finishing them off is not reasonable by any standard i am aware of.


reasonable suspicion is irrelevant. to effect a citizens arrest you have to see the person committing the crime.

The judge in the first case would agree with you. They jury disagreed with you. That’s why subjective tests in law like “reasonable” are not clear cut. The new legislation enshrines the subjectivity.

In Georgia’s legal system, to partake in a citizen arrest for a misdemeanor, you have to witness the offence or have immediate knowledge of the offence. To partake in a citizen arrest for a felony, it’s broader. You only need to have a reasonable suspicion that a felony has occurred. So you’re wrong on that point.

Overheal

Stateofyou wrote: »

On the contrary. Private FB group evidence shows they said they would kill anyone who wasn't wanted in their neighbourhood. They arranged a cameraman. They thought ahead.

Is that a fact?

joe40

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

How do you go about stopping a guy running away while holding a gun that needs both hands on it? Leave the gun behind, the father is on the bed of the truck with a hand gun, on the phone with the dispatch also.. it's a case of stupid decision on top of stupid decision that has resulted in the death of Amaud Arbrey. Time to pay the Piper for the stupid mistakes they made that day.

Yes they made bad decisions, that resulted in a confrontation with an unarmed guy, that has resulted in him being shot 3 times. Murder/manslaughter whatever, there was a case to be answered, why it took the release of the video for charges to brought is absolute bollox. It looks like an attempt to "hope this blows over" and we carry on same old same old.

Yeah good post, their behavior resulted in the death of a young man. His previous behavior/ record if there is one is totally immaterial.
If I'm been very generous i can concede that it wasn't there intention to kill him but there reckless behavior with firearms directly resulted in his death.
To me that is quite simple they committed a crime and should pay a penalty. I hope the court case has the same finding but we will have to wait and see.

Overheal

GY_1980 wrote: »

The judge in the first case would agree with you. They jury disagreed with you. That’s why subjective tests in law like “reasonable” are not clear cut. The new legislation enshrines the subjectivity.

In Georgia’s legal system, to partake in a citizen arrest for a misdemeanor, you have to witness the offence or have immediate knowledge of the offence. To partake in a citizen arrest for a felony, it’s broader. You only need to have a reasonable suspicion that a felony has occurred. So you’re wrong on that point.

They clearly lacked the reasonable suspicion.

They chased him down for 4 minutes. Open handed. Wearing shorts. T shirt. Yet they suspected him of stealing power tools and or fishing gear and or... ?

No reasonable suspicion, then, that he had committed a felony.

It’s no wonder the Greg McMichael had for years failed to get properly certified for arrest and use of force.

Donald Trump

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Hang on, you said Arbery ran at him. You need to make up your mind.

Can you not just watch the video to try to figure it out for yourself?


"Jogger" in white is running on left side of road. Man in front of him. Truck in middle. Jogger swerves and runs to right or truck. Then runs around front of truck and at fella.


I mean it's there. Not sure what your issue is? And if you are having to make up fake "issues" then you must have run out of real ones! It doesn't matter what I or anyone else post on here. It doesn't change what's on the video.