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Ahmaud Arbery

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    #902
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    Overheal wrote: »
    https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-26/ahmaud-arbery-life-at-crossroads-in-final-days

    Thanks for posting that piece. Nice to see him as an actual person not another statistic.
    Really brings it home the shocking and tragic outcome directly related to the actions of the McMichaels on that day.


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    #903
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I dont think it excuses anything. I just find it interesting that the media would seemingly have us think no crime was happening in the area when in fact it seems there was quite a spate of crime.

    Can I ask why you are bringing race into things? I have not seen any indication that Arbery was targeted because he was black. Would you have any information to link that would help me improve my understanding of the siuation? If you could share it that would be fantastic. This came up in the thread before and I asked for clarification & as far as I know, none was provided. Now, its possible I missed it and if so I apologise. I find it strange that the two McMichaels have gone their whole lives aparently being so racist yet have never killed or attacked anyone for being black up to this point (to my knowledge)

    Again, could you provide evidence that Arbery was targeted because he was black.

    Regarding weather the arrest was legit or not, I think that will be best left to the courts to decide. I look forward to getting clarification on that in the future. I do understand your concerns on it though.

    the courts have already decided what constitutes a legitimate citizens arrest. i have posted a judgement from the supreme court of georgia that you attempted to willfully misunderstand.this incident does not meet that criteria.


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    #904
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Overheal wrote: »
    https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-05-26/ahmaud-arbery-life-at-crossroads-in-final-days


    Thanks for that. Having found his exact address, it would appear he lived an even shorter distance than 2 miles from the indecent.


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    #905
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the courts have already decided what constitutes a legitimate citizens arrest. i have posted a judgement from the supreme court of georgia that you attempted to willfully misunderstand.this incident does not meet that criteria.


    I get what your saying but please understand, as I have already said, every case is different. You cannot apply a ruling from one singular case to every other case that may come up. There are a multitude of factors to consider, many of which we will never know about. Again, as I have also already said, neither of us are really going to be able to figure it out, because we do not have all the information and its best left to the courts to decide.


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    #906
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I get what your saying but please understand, as I have already said, every case is different. You cannot apply a ruling from one singular case to every other case that may come up. There are a multitude of factors to consider, many of which we will never know about. Again, as I have also already said, neither of us are really going to be able to figure it out, because we do not have all the information and its best left to the courts to decide.

    well actually you can. that is what a precedent is. they do it all the time. in order for it to be a legitimate citizens arrest they had to have seen him commit the offence. they did not see him commit the offence. it is really straightforward. now if you come back and say that they could have had immediate knowledge i will assume you are trolling. You already know that "immediate knowledge" is a synonym for seeing somebody do it.


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    #907
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Some more context to the incident in Townsend Park, GA


    I believe this incident is helpful to the discussion as it demonstrates Arbery's tendency to resist authority. It would suggest to me that rather than feeling threatened by the McMichaels, he was resisting their authority. He has previous for resisting authority with his gun charges etc.


    A longer video:





    A police report on the incident:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NB84hbTOdL2Hbxlv6BM1luvJXwB6MrIk/view


    "I then began to walk around his vehicle to look for weapons or drugs that would be in plain view. As I walked up to the passenger side of Arbery's vehicle, he approached me and exclaimed "Don't go into my mother****in' car!" I ordered him to back up. Shortly thereafter, Tac Ofc. D. Haney #142 responded to my location. Tac Ofc. Haney was not advised that I had checked Arbery for weapons.

    As Tac Ofc. Haney exited his vehicle, I advised him that I observed a plastic baggie in the center console area. Arbery began to advance toward his vehicle exclaiming, "You can't touch my ****! " Tac Ofc. Haney stopped Arbery from going into his vehicle and Arbery slid his hands in his pockets. Tac Ofc. Haney ordered him to take his hands out of his pockets while drawing his Taser. Arbery did not take his hands out of his vehicle; therefore, Tac Ofc. Haney attempted to deploy his Taser to protect himself and I from the possibility of death or seriously bodily harm. His Taser malfunctioned. We ordered Arbery to get onto the ground and he got down on his knees.

    After Arbery was on the ground, I asked for consent to search his vehicle; he did not give consent. I then advised Arbery that he was free to go. He asked if he could drive his vehicle, but I advised him that since his license was suspended, he could not operate his vehicle. He ran off yelling something inaudible at us.

    After Arbery left the scene, I noticed that his driver-side window was slightly opened. I placed my nose near the opening of the vehicle and smelled the odor of what I believed to be burned marijuana and observed a plastic baggie in the center console with some sort of leafy substance inside."


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    #908
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    well actually you can. that is what a precedent is. they do it all the time. in order for it to be a legitimate citizens arrest they had to have seen him commit the offence. they did not see him commit the offence. it is really straightforward. now if you come back and say that they could have had immediate knowledge i will assume you are trolling. You already know that "immediate knowledge" is a synonym for seeing somebody do it.


    Great stuff, I'll take your comments into consideration when forming my opinion, thanks for your input.


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    #909
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Some more context to the incident in Townsend Park, GA


    I believe this incident is helpful to the discussion as it demonstrates Arbery's tendency to resist authority. It would suggest to me that rather than feeling threatened by the McMichaels, he was resisting their authority. He has previous for resisting authority with his gun charges etc.


    A longer video:





    A police report on the incident:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NB84hbTOdL2Hbxlv6BM1luvJXwB6MrIk/view


    "I then began to walk around his vehicle to look for weapons or drugs that would be in plain view. As I walked up to the passenger side of Arbery's vehicle, he approached me and exclaimed "Don't go into my mother****in' car!" I ordered him to back up. Shortly thereafter, Tac Ofc. D. Haney #142 responded to my location. Tac Ofc. Haney was not advised that I had checked Arbery for weapons.

    As Tac Ofc. Haney exited his vehicle, I advised him that I observed a plastic baggie in the center console area. Arbery began to advance toward his vehicle exclaiming, "You can't touch my ****! " Tac Ofc. Haney stopped Arbery from going into his vehicle and Arbery slid his hands in his pockets. Tac Ofc. Haney ordered him to take his hands out of his pockets while drawing his Taser. Arbery did not take his hands out of his vehicle; therefore, Tac Ofc. Haney attempted to deploy his Taser to protect himself and I from the possibility of death or seriously bodily harm. His Taser malfunctioned. We ordered Arbery to get onto the ground and he got down on his knees.

    After Arbery was on the ground, I asked for consent to search his vehicle; he did not give consent. I then advised Arbery that he was free to go. He asked if he could drive his vehicle, but I advised him that since his license was suspended, he could not operate his vehicle. He ran off yelling something inaudible at us.

    After Arbery left the scene, I noticed that his driver-side window was slightly opened. I placed my nose near the opening of the vehicle and smelled the odor of what I believed to be burned marijuana and observed a plastic baggie in the center console with some sort of leafy substance inside."

    the mcmichaels did not have any authority.


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    #910
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the mcmichaels did not have any authority.

    Exactly.


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    #911
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,001 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the mcmichaels did not have any authority.
    Citizen's arrest confers authority.


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    #912
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I get what your saying but please understand, as I have already said, every case is different. You cannot apply a ruling from one singular case to every other case that may come up.

    Applying rulings from previous cases is more or less the entire tenant of US, UK and Irish law.


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    #913
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Citizen's arrest confers authority.

    The Georgia Supreme Court think they had no right to execute a citizen's arrest. I think I'll probably go with them on this one.


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    #914
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Citizen's arrest confers authority.

    No it doesn't, and they had no grounds for citizen's arrest in the first place.


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    #915
    alchemist33
    Registered Users Posts: 10,969 ✭✭✭✭alchemist33


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Citizen's arrest confers authority.

    Three people he doesnt know, some with guns, is not authority. Its a bunch of people out to do him harm.

    Honestly, this is getting ridiculous.


  • Options
    #916
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,001 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    The Georgia Supreme Court think they had no right to execute a citizen's arrest. I think I'll probably go with them on this one.
    Have they ruled already on this case?


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    #917
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Citizen's arrest confers authority.

    a legitimate citizens arrest does. they had no legitimate basis for a citizens arrest. But i suppose you are going to willfully ignore all the evidence i have posted that proves that it wasnt legitimate. That proof including a decision of the Georgia Supreme court.


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    #918
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Have they ruled already on this case?

    They do not need to. They have defined what immediate knowledge is and it did not exist in this case.


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    #919
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Have they ruled already on this case?

    they have ruled on what constitutes a legitimate citizens arrest. this case does not meet that standard.


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    #920
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,001 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    They do not need to. They have defined what immediate knowledge is and it did not exist in this case.
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    they have ruled on what constitutes a legitimate citizens arrest. this case does not meet that standard.
    So they have not ruled in this case whether it meets the standard or not. Thanks for clarifying :)


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    #921
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    ELM327 wrote: »
    So they have not ruled in this case whether it meets the standard or not. Thanks for clarifying :)

    Will you accept that it was murder if they do?


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    #922
    EyesClosed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭EyesClosed


    ELM327 wrote: »
    So they have not ruled in this case whether it meets the standard or not. Thanks for clarifying :)

    What's your point?
    The McMichaels did not have grounds for citizens arrest, end of.


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    #923
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,001 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Will you accept that it was murder if they do?
    If that's what the court decides, then yes of course.
    Unlike others, I will not decide what happened, its up to the court in the great state of GA.


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    #924
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,001 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    EyesClosed wrote: »
    What's your point?
    The McMichaels did not have grounds for citizens arrest, end of.


    My point is that that has not been decided by the court of law in the jurisdiction, so it's not end of anything.


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    #925
    EyesClosed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭EyesClosed


    ELM327 wrote: »
    My point is that that has not been decided by the court of law in the jurisdiction, so it's not end of anything.

    All court cases quote past court decisions. A past decision says they dont have grounds for a citizens arrest. So they had no authority which you said Ahmaud was fighting.


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    #926
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    So they have not ruled in this case whether it meets the standard or not. Thanks for clarifying :)

    now you are definitely trolling. you are making no attempt at an intelligent discussion. given that kidchameleon thanked your post i can only assume they are trolling as well.


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    #927
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    My point is that that has not been decided by the court of law in the jurisdiction, so it's not end of anything.

    it was a decision of the georgia supreme court. the killing took place in georgia.


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    #928
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,996 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    ELM327 wrote: »
    So they have not ruled in this case whether it meets the standard or not. Thanks for clarifying :)

    The supreme court don't judge on every single gay marriage in the US either. They just had to do it once.


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    #929
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 22,001 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    now you are definitely trolling. you are making no attempt at an intelligent discussion. given that kidchameleon thanked your post i can only assume they are trolling as well.


    If you have run out of things to say and are left with the old "you're trolling" I'm happy that the discussion has run its course. Thanks. I'll await the court's verdict.


    Hell if it weren't for this chinese flu I'd be considering going over there


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    #930
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,466 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    If you have run out of things to say and are left with the old "you're trolling" I'm happy that the discussion has run its course. Thanks. I'll await the court's verdict.


    Hell if it weren't for this chinese flu I'd be considering going over there

    you haven't responded intelligently to anything i've posted so you leave me with no choice but to assume you are trolling.


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    #931
    EyesClosed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭EyesClosed


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    you haven't responded intelligently to anything i've posted so you leave me with no choice but to assume you are trolling.

    It is also the avoidance of any link or fact you have posted followed up with asking the same questions you have answered over and over again


This discussion has been closed.
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