Do you believe in UFOs & flying saucers ?

maccored

COVID wrote: »

It's from an article written by Robert Park for,

'The Newsletter For The National Association of SCIENCEWRITERS'
Volume 49, Number 2, Summer 2000

The article includes this gem:

''The widespread belief in alien abductions is just one example of the growing influence of pseudoscience. Two hundred years ago, educated people imagined that the greatest contribution of science would be to free the world from superstition and humbug. It has not happened. Ancient beliefs in demons and magic still sweep across the modern landscape, but they are now dressed in the language and symbols of science: A best-selling health guru asserts that cancer can be banished from the body by the power of the mind. If anyone should doubt it, he explains that it's all firmly grounded in quantum theory''.

thats a gem alright. Not one mention of 'UFO' in it

COVID

maccored wrote: »

i wonder who claimed it was a UFO - maybe the military (before quickly changing their tune)

https://www.wired.com/2010/07/0708army-announces-roswell-new-mexico-ufo-sighting/

also - theres plenty of other accounts of UFOs - why are you focusing on this one?

I was responding to post #1079 by davidbeckem32, that's why.

maccored

COVID wrote: »

I was responding to post #1079 by davidbeckem32, that's why.

i dont know what you weret trying to prove as you ended up admitting there were 'strange events' in roswell by quoting a professor .

COVID

maccored wrote: »

i dont know what you weret trying to prove as you ended up admitting there were 'strange events' in roswell by quoting a professor .

I weret trying to prove anything.

COVID

Will be checking out soon to watch a game of association football game between Wolverhampton Wanderers and Leeds United.

Be careful out there, and look out for those balls of light!

Talk soon.

steddyeddy

COVID wrote: »

It's from an article written by Robert Park for,

'The Newsletter For The National Association of SCIENCEWRITERS'
Volume 49, Number 2, Summer 2000

The article includes this gem:

''The widespread belief in alien abductions is just one example of the growing influence of pseudoscience. Two hundred years ago, educated people imagined that the greatest contribution of science would be to free the world from superstition and humbug. It has not happened. Ancient beliefs in demons and magic still sweep across the modern landscape, but they are now dressed in the language and symbols of science: A best-selling health guru asserts that cancer can be banished from the body by the power of the mind. If anyone should doubt it, he explains that it's all firmly grounded in quantum theory''.

Why are you directing that at me or Maccored though? How does that explain what the pilot seen, the radar data or the FLIR videos?

Also it's interesting what he says but everyone from the ancient Greeks tot he ancient Japanese talked about aliens.

COVID

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why are you directing that at me or Maccored though? How does that explain what the pilot seen, the radar data or the FLIR videos?

Also it's interesting what he says but everyone from the ancient Greeks tot he ancient Japanese talked about aliens.

I'm responding to posts by you and Maccored.

Not being rude here, but the rest of your post is a bit unclear.

---

Four minutes to kick off, catch you later.

bangkok

Betty and Barney Hill is a very good UFO abduction story, made worldwide healines at the time as well

steddyeddy

COVID wrote: »

I'm responding to posts by you and Maccored.

Not being rude here, but the rest of your post is a bit unclear.

---

Four minutes to kick off, catch you later.

You'll figure it out but to sum up your view that aliens only fascinated mankind from the 1940s is easily disproved.

COVID

steddyeddy wrote: »

You'll figure it out but to sum up your view that aliens only fascinated mankind from the 1940s is easily disproved.

Not my view, but do carry on.

steddyeddy

COVID wrote: »

Not my view, but do carry on.

Scientific American again.

One of the very earliest recorded examples was written in 200 AD by Lucian of Samosata (in eastern Turkey), a writer of satire and a practitioner of rhetoric of Assyrian descent (it is thought). Among his works is a novel called Vera Historia, or “True Story”, that details a journey to the Moon and the discovery of a multitude of life there. That lunar-life includes three headed vultures, birds made of grass with wings of leaves, humans sweating milk, and fleas the size of elephants.

Clearly the story is far from “true”, and Lucian didn’t hide that this was fantasy. In fact he was in part making a philosophical point about the impossibility of real truth, and the fallacy of other thinkers for claiming to be arbiters of truth, including hallowed folk like Plato.

But the tale is one of the earliest known where detailed alien life is imagined. The beings of the Moon are even at war with beings on the Sun. Aliens, it seems, would be susceptible to our kinds of flaws. Interestingly, the possible existence of solar life was still doing the rounds in the late 1700s and early 1800s thanks to the astronomer William Herschel. Except Herschel wasn’t writing fantasy, he really suspected that there could be living things on the Sun, on a hypothetical solid surface.

The Moon has always been a good incubator for ideas about other life. The 10th Century Japanese narrative (or monogatari) of The Tale of Princess Kaguya has versions where the titular princess has been sent to Earth from the people of the Moon during a celestial war. But this story has the aliens as human in form.

In fact, it’s interesting to see that from the earliest days, including the ideas of the ancient Greeks on cosmic pluralism, people have tended to either assume extraterrestrial life would be like us, or go for the full, bizarre alien treatment. Despite that split, more often than not there’s been a bias towards human forms, all the way up through the 1700s and 1800s where writers like Voltaire in his Micromégas has aliens from Saturn who (despite being six thousand feet tall) are basically human.

It wasn’t really until Darwin’s theory of evolution broke ground that anyone tried to imagine aliens as living things with lineages that related to the environments of their origins. Up to this point anything non-human was, like Lucian of Samosata’s funky beasts, more often than not arbitrarily fantastic.


One of the slightly more forward thinkers was the French astronomer Camille Flammarion (although he was also a pretty far-out advocate of a blend of Christianity and pluralism in which souls passed from planet to planet). In 1864 he wrote a book called Real and Imaginary Worlds, and in 1887 a fictional piece called Lumen. Between these he concocted aliens that, in many ways, had a basis in the scientific thinking of the time. There were sentient plants whose digestive and respiratory systems were combined. Mermaid-like creatures swimming in rose-colored oceans, and human-like beings with extra toes on the heels of their feet and a single, conical ear on top of their heads.

COVID

bangkok wrote: »

Betty and Barney Hill is a very good UFO abduction story, made worldwide healines at the time as well

Stone me, I misread it as Betty and Barney Rubble.

maccored

no wonder the whole country cant wait til covid's gone

steddyeddy

I'll repeat it's a pity that there's so much immaturity while trying to have a scientific talk about the subject. This had some great contributions from posters who unfortunately were shouted down by people who can't handle the complexity of the topic.

maccored

ever hear of Dr Greer and the CE5 initiative? The idea roughly being that meditation is the key as these things travel in thought forms. That idea ties in with ancient beliefs of the otherworld and shaman from north asia

COVID

maccored wrote: »

no wonder the whole country cant wait til covid's gone

Hear, hear!

Though it mightn't be for a while yet, unfortunately for all.

COVID

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll repeat it's a pity that there's so much immaturity while trying to have a scientific talk about the subject. This had some great contributions from posters who unfortunately were shouted down by people who can't handle the complexity of the topic.

I'm blushing now, but thanks anyway.

maccored

COVID wrote: »

Hear, hear!

Though it mightn't be for a while yet, unfortunately for all.

its the poor wee ufos i feel sorry for

Kunta Kinte

What are people`s views on the Linda Cortile abduction case in New York in 1989? Truth or fiction? This is the most recent article I can find about the case.

https://www.ufoinsight.com/aliens/abductions/alien-abduction-linda-cortile

COVID

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

What are people`s views on the Linda Cortile abduction case in New York in 1989? Truth or fiction? This is the most recent article I can find about the case.

https://www.ufoinsight.com/aliens/abductions/alien-abduction-linda-cortile

Don't know much about it, there's some info in this article from WIRED:

''The Truth Is Way Out There
The quality of evidence doesn't matter when UFO buffs gather to swap stories. Witness the one about the alien nose ring. It's all about quantity. Theta Pavis reports from New York''.

https://www.wired.com/1999/04/the-truth-is-way-out-there/

maninasia

bangkok wrote: »

anyone remember Michael Knighton, English business man who tried to buy Manchester United...

He said him and his wife seen a UFO, was publicly mocked after he told a paper not to publish the story, had to step back then from everything as he said it wasnt fair on his family. sad to say that if you say you seen a UFO it can potentially ruin your life

Great story thay I never knew about and also his very impressive career and ambition.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/knighton-footballs-greatest-visionary-927573

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/27/michael-knighton-manchester-united-keepie-uppies-interview

I tried to get the original article but couldn't find it. But his description of the sighting, well it's a classic really.


''I feel deeply betrayed," he said. "This was a very private story and I made it perfectly clear to the reporter that it was not for publication. The damage has been done now and so I've decided to resign at the end of the season. I have a nine-year-old son and it's not fair for him to be ridiculed."

He still cannot explain his "wonderful" UFO experience. "It was quite extraordinary," he said. "This object fell out of the sky, starting off as a tiny dot like a shooting star but it was unbelievable. It changed from an inverted V to a huge metallic disc the size of half a football pitch. We watched it perform the most unbelievable aero-acrobatics in silence."

Mr Knighton and his wife watched the display for 30 minutes, watching with "two men walking their dog". Although they later read reports of a similar sighting, they decided against informing the authorities. My wife was quite overawed by what we saw and she would not like to experience it again. I was totally enthralled."''

maninasia

silliussoddius wrote: »

Most likely a MFO, misidentified flying object like a surveillance ballon or weather balloon. Spare me with the assuming it's alien, this story hasn't been flogged for decades because of something that was unidentified.

It was a crashed high altitude balloon that they were flying out of the desert there to detect nuclear explosions if I recall rightly. If you check the details of Project Mogul it matches up very well.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/in-1947-high-altitude-balloon-crash-landed-roswell-aliens-never-left-180963917/

The whole Roswell thing was pushed by Stanton Friedman. I have a lot of respect for this UFO legend of many decades (RIP) but the Roswell story is fairly straightforward to explain and really not interesting compared to many other bona fide UFO sightings.

maninasia

I'm sorry if this was posted already but it's a great read.

Somebody earlier said Scientific American poo pooed the whole alien thing but here they give this Prof a good opportunity to explain thats it's actually the scientific community that is super conservative.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/astronomer-avi-loeb-says-aliens-have-visited-and-hes-not-kidding1/


Another example is the Perseverance and Curiosity Rover.
Deliberately looking for signs of extinct life...Fossils...Rather than extant life. Its quite bizarre. The last time NASA made a really decent biochemical experiment to look for living organisms on Mars was the 1970s (with inclusive results due to the experiment design and knowledge of Martian soil chemistry at that time ).

grassylawn

Astronomers noticed an unusual object leaving out solar system some years ago. It accelerated as it departed, which is a feature only known to occur with comets. However it wasn't a comet because it had no tail.

One prominent physicist has theorised that it might be a light sail from an alien civilization. A light sail is a hypothetical spacecraft that is propelled by solar wind - pushed along by light hitting it. While the consensus among his peers is that there is not the "extraordinary evidence required for extraordinary claims," they have not been able to come up with a compelling competing theory.

Also I took a photo of a reflection of a lightbulb when I was a kid and told people it was a flying saucer.

steddyeddy

maninasia wrote: »

I'm sorry if this was posted already but it's a great read.

Somebody earlier said Scientific American poo pooed the whole alien thing but here they give this Prof a good opportunity to explain thats it's actually the scientific community that is super conservative.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/astronomer-avi-loeb-says-aliens-have-visited-and-hes-not-kidding1/


Another example is the Perseverance and Curiosity Rover.
Deliberately looking for signs of extinct life...Fossils...Rather than extant life. Its quite bizarre. The last time NASA made a really decent biochemical experiment to look for living organisms on Mars was the 1970s (with inclusive results due to the experiment design and knowledge of Martian soil chemistry at that time ).

I seen that. Scientific American is agnostic regarding things like this. It acknowledges there's a mystery here an a thorough investigation is required.

The Harvard scientist making the claim is Avi Loeb. He writes about it here. In short, Avi states that the data shows that the object moves faster than a comet, under its own acceleration and was flat and appeared artificial.

The object’s discoverers dubbed it ‘Oumuamua—a Hawaiian term that roughly translates to “scout.” The unavoidably cursory examinations of this celestial passerby showed it had several properties that defied easy natural explanation. ‘Oumuamua’s apparent shape—which was like a 100-meter-long cigar or pancake—did not closely resemble any known asteroid or comet. Neither did its brightness, which revealed ‘Oumuamua was at least 10 times more reflective than one of our solar system’s typical space rocks—shiny enough to suggest the gleam of burnished metal. Most strangely, as it zoomed off after swooping by the sun, the object sped up faster than could be explained by our star’s waning gravitational grip alone. Run-of-the-mill comets can exhibit similar accelerations because of the rocketlike effect of evaporating gases jetting from their sunlight-warmed icy surfaces. But no signs of such jets were seen around ‘Oumuamua.

To Loeb, the most plausible explanation was as obvious as it was sensational: taken together with its possibly pancakelike shape and high reflectivity, ‘Oumuamua’s anomalous acceleration made perfect sense if the object was in fact a light sail—perhaps a derelict from some long-expired galactic culture. Primed by years spent pondering how we might someday find evidence of cosmic civilizations in the sky’s depths, he became increasingly convinced that, with ‘Oumuamua, the evidence had instead found us. In late 2018 Loeb and his co-author Shmuel Bialy, a Harvard postdoctoral fellow, published a paper in the Astrophysical Journal Letters arguing that ‘Oumuamua had been nothing less than humanity’s first contact with an artifact of extraterrestrial intelligence.

Of course the amateur sceptics attacked Avi (who chairs the Board on Physics and Astronomy of the National Academies [of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine) by shouting the mantra "IT'S NOT ALIENS AND IF YOU DISGAREE YOU'RE NOT A SCIENTIST".

He responds with a statement that the sceptics don't look at the evidence. They generate backlash and come to conclusions based on no evidence.

Just like going to an ATM, doing experiments can serve as a reality check. And in science, it’s essential that we have that check—that we make testable predictions and put some skin in the game—because otherwise we won’t learn anything new. I don’t think that’s properly recognized anymore.

steddyeddy

olestoepoke wrote: »

Earth is hit by pieces of flying debris all the time, thats exactly what that video looks like to me. I believe 100% that there is other life out there, its just too vast with too many galaxies not to have life somewhere. Do I believe we've ever been visited, possible for sure but I have never seen anything that convinced me that we have. The problem is the size of the universe, not only do you have to find life they have to be advanced enough to travel astronomically long distances, there are a lot of variables that have to align i.e their advancement, the distance they need to travel and the timing.

That's an interesting idea O and fair play for putting it forward.

I don't subscribe to that theory as the object in the video hovers and then exits the weapons lockon system of the fighter jet. Flying debris don't hover, speed up, slow down and even jam radar as has been described.

olestoepoke

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's an interesting idea O and fair play for putting it forward.

I don't subscribe to that theory as the object in the video hovers and then exits the weapons lockon system of the fighter jet. Flying debris don't hover, speed up, slow down and even jam radar as has been described.

I watched it again and I don't see anything different, pieces of debris entering out atmosphere. Hovers and then exits? Really? I suppose people see what they want sometimes because again all I see is debris.

steddyeddy

olestoepoke wrote: »

I watched it again and I don't see anything different, pieces of debris entering out atmosphere. Hovers and then exits? Really? I suppose people see what they want sometimes because again all I see is debris.

I think so O. I admire the way you're putting forward explanations though.

Here's the pilot who recorded it stating the movement was hovering, followed by fast acceleration.

Here's why I disagree with the debris theory.

This is a FLIR image. It records heat signatures. The heat signature from debris is different from something with an internal power source.

The object in another FLIR video from the same encounter (shown below) is moving laterally. Debris moves in the vertical/lateral plane but can't defy gravity We can see the sea under it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUrTsrhVce4

The DOD (Department of Defence) released a statement about the videos:

"DOD [Department of Defense] is releasing the videos in order to clear up any misconceptions by the public on whether or not the footage that has been circulating was real, or whether or not there is more to the videos. The aerial phenomena observed in the videos remain characterized as 'unidentified'."

Kevin Day, the radar operator on the day has provided radar data of the event. UAP in this case refers to unidentified aerial phenomenon.

Senior Chief Kevin Day informed us that the Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) radar systems had detected the UAPs in low Earth orbit before they dropped down to 80,000 feet. The objects would arrive in groups of 10 to 20 and subsequently drop down to 28,000 feet with a several hundred foot variation, and track south at a speed of about 100 knots. Periodically, the UAPs would drop from 28,000 feet to sea level (estimated to be 50 feet), or under the surface, in 0.78 s.

So we know that it dropped ~ 62k feet in 0.78 seconds. We know that acceleration due to gravity is ~ 9.8 m/s/s. The object record here moves 1878 times faster. It couldn't be a falling object.

COVID

olestoepoke wrote: »

I watched it again and I don't see anything different, pieces of debris entering out atmosphere. Hovers and then exits? Really? I suppose people see what they want sometimes because again all I see is debris.

You might well be right 'O', so much for the 'amateur sceptics', referred to by another poster, I presume they're the ones below in bold.

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN:

The (Loeb/Bialy) paper has been a smash hit with journalists but has fallen flat with most of Loeb’s astrobiology-focused peers, who insist that, while strange, ‘Oumuamua’s properties still place it well within the realm of natural phenomena. To claim otherwise, Loeb’s critics say, is cavalier at best and destructive at worst for the long struggle to remove the stigma of credulous UFO and alien-abduction reports from what should unquestionably be a legitimate field of scientific inquiry.

steddyeddy

COVID wrote: »

You might well be right 'O', so much for the 'amateur sceptics', referred to by another poster, I presume they're the ones below in bold.

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN:

The (Loeb/Bialy) paper has been a smash hit with journalists but has fallen flat with most of Loeb’s astrobiology-focused peers, who insist that, while strange, ‘Oumuamua’s properties still place it well within the realm of natural phenomena. To claim otherwise, Loeb’s critics say, is cavalier at best and destructive at worst for the long struggle to remove the stigma of credulous UFO and alien-abduction reports from what should unquestionably be a legitimate field of scientific inquiry.

For a minute there I actually thought you were going to give me a detailed rebuttal to the data I linked to earlier

But yes the bits in bold refer to armchair sceptics, football watching sceptics and other scientists, although there's obviously differences in the standard of each.

And who are Loeb's critics? Could you link me to a few or did you just read that and assume they must be all top class scientists. His paper was peer reviewed and accepted for publication.

That means that the data has been evaluated and found to be accurate as well as the conclusions. Linking to a journalist mentioning criticisms does not supersede a peer reviewed publication. You'll find plenty of people who criticise vaccines but very little from peer reviewed data.

steddyeddy

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Research, come on. Listen, bub, you asked for potential explanations so, as I’m not “au fait” with the latest UFO encounters, I checked the Wikipedia article on the “case”. I’m hardly going to go to some Fortean site where the only potential explanation is aliens.

Apologies I assumed I had replied to this. The reason I asked for potential explanations is that my thesis is simply that there's a mystery to these events that hasn't been adequately explain. I'm not, nor have I said that it's aliens. I am saying that pilots are claiming encounters were objects that seem to have capabilities far above those of their own planes.

Frankly, I’m starting to question your scientific integrity if you, persistently, dismiss any dissenting voice that doesn’t fully back the idea that these unexplained events are alien space men flying around in spaceships. It’s like with those “doctors” or “professors” who appear on shows like ‘Ancient Aliens’.

Go ahead but I'm not claiming that. I'm claiming that there's a substantial amount of these cases that are unexplainable by current proposals.

COVID

steddyeddy wrote: »

......



Of course the amaatuer sceptics attacked Avi ......

The above looks more like amateur than armhcair to me.

What say you?

Fuzzyduzzy

https://mobile.twitter.com/GadiNBC/status/1363234472880050177

steddyeddy

COVID wrote: »

The above looks more like amateur than armhcair to me.

What say you?

I say we try again with a study C. Research conducted by the University of Michigan indicated that those who point out grammatical errors are more likely to be introverted and less agreeable to other humans.

According to a bunch of fancy linguists, people who are more sensitive to written typos and grammatical errors are indeed the kinds of Type A assholes everyone already suspects them to be.

The findings came from a new study out of the University of Michigan. Researchers gathered 83 people and had them read emails that either contained typos (“mkae” or “abuot”), grammar errors (to/too, it’s/its or your/you’re), or no spelling mistakes at all. At the end, the participants, who had also been asked to give information about themselves, scored the writers on “perceived intelligence, friendliness, and other attributes.”

The team reported that extraverts were more likely to wave off spelling errors, whereas introverts were basically like, “You’re a ****ing idiot, learn to construct a goddamn sentence, Christ almighty.” Less agreeable people were more likely to notice grammar errors, which the researchers mused was because these types “are less tolerant of deviations from convention.” (Or they’re just assholes, but who can say?) People who were more conscientious and less open were more sensitive to typos.

COVID

steddyeddy wrote: »

I say we try again with a study C. Research conducted by the University of Michigan indicated that those who point out grammatical errors are more likely to be introverted and less agreeable to other humans.

Though yours wasn't a grammatical error, was it?

You referred to Loeb’s astrobiology-focused peers as 'amateur sceptics' (with a typo, that's not a problem, nor did I say it was); you then tried to pass it off in another post as 'armchair sceptics'.

That's the problem!

Simples.

Sakana

steddyeddy wrote: »

The team reported that extraverts were more likely to wave off spelling errors, whereas introverts were basically like, “You’re a ****ing idiot, learn to construct a goddamn sentence, Christ almighty.” Less agreeable people were more likely to notice grammar errors, which the researchers mused was because these types “are less tolerant of deviations from convention.” (Or they’re just assholes, but who can say?) People who were more conscientious and less open were more sensitive to typos.

I feel like this misspelling is intentional.

steddyeddy

Sakana wrote: »

I feel like this misspelling is intentional.

Yes that's lifted from the quoted study. They likely did include it intentionally.

steddyeddy

COVID wrote: »

Though yours wasn't a grammatical error, was it?

You referred to Loeb’s astrobiology-focused peers as 'amateur sceptics' (with a typo, that's not a problem, nor did I say it was); you then tried to pass it off in another post as 'armchair sceptics'.

That's the problem!

Simples.

More grammar Nazism Covid?

COVID

steddyeddy wrote: »

More grammar Nazism Covid?

New Home

Mod: Back to the UFOs, please, enough of the typo/grammar jibes.

saabsaab

New Home wrote: »

Mod: Back to the UFOs, please, enough of the typo/grammar jibes.

UFO

New Home

Oi! I'll FO in my own good time, thank you very much.

Fuzzyduzzy

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/39367/airbus-encountered-unidentified-fast-moving-cylindrical-object-over-new-mexico

Interesting case in the US yesterday...

fryup

^^^^^^^^^^^

maybe it was that engine that fell off the boeing?

jmlad2020

Pilots are the least credible people in the world aren't they..You don't have to be a sane, intelligent individual at all to be a pilot do you?

Oh wait you do...

Pilots throughout the years have seen strange objects (many credible cases) and if they spot a strange object that is out of this world then I believe them.

silliussoddius

jmlad2020 wrote: »

Pilots are the least credible people in the world aren't they..You don't have to be a sane, intelligent individual at all to be a pilot do you?

Oh wait you do...

Pilots throughout the years have seen strange objects (many credible cases) and if they spot a strange object that is out of this world then I believe them.

They cover alien aircraft as part of their training?
And To the Stars are focussing everything on History Channelesque nonsense.
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/to-the-stars-falls-back-to-earth-refocusing-as-an-entertainment-company

COVID

Fuzzyduzzy wrote: »

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/39367/airbus-encountered-unidentified-fast-moving-cylindrical-object-over-new-mexico

Interesting case in the US yesterday...

This is from the article you posted:

''As to what the pilots aboard American Airlines Flight 2292 could have actually seen, we really cannot say at this time. Many will point out that New Mexico is home to the sprawling White Sands Missile Range (WSMR) along with a bevy of other military facilities, installations, and restricted areas.''

Anyway, I hope you're not saying that by dint of being a pilot, one is utterly averse to being economical with the actualité.

Rodin

The chances that there are Aliens out there is a
magnitude more likely than there aren't.
For all we know we were put here.

I don't believe we've been visited recently.

COVID

COVID wrote: »

This is from the article you posted:

''As to what the pilots aboard American Airlines Flight 2292 could have actually seen, we really cannot say at this time. Many will point out that New Mexico is home to the sprawling White Sands Missile Range (WSMR) along with a bevy of other military facilities, installations, and restricted areas.''

Anyway, I hope you're not saying that by dint of being a pilot, one is utterly averse to being economical with the actualité.

Oops, my bad.

My last point was addressed to another poster; jmlad2020

Dr. Bre

COVID wrote: »

Oops, my bad.

My last point was addressed to another poster; jmlad2020

The vaccines are getting to you ..