Do you believe in UFOs & flying saucers ?

Church on Tuesday

randd1 wrote: »

The bigger question is, do we want to intelligent aliens to know we're here?

Being likely more advanced than us, they might view us as beneath them and as little more than exotic meat, á la the Kelpians in Star Trek Discovery.

Surely they would have done this already?

We are only getting more advanced.

TheIrishGrover

Wibbs wrote: »

..... TL;DR? we can't know until we find evidence of life elsewhere. That life could be almost always simple life. Intelligence could be very rare and intelligence like ours could be rarer again. There might be only one intelligent life form per galaxy, or none.

Well, (Again, just my own thoughts) I think we will find that VERY simple, microscopic life is relatively common given the right conditions. I do believe they will find evidence of past life on Mars eventually.

Regarding more advanced life, yeah, I believe that would be very rare. But simply given the numbers of potential planets out there in our galaxy alone, I think it unlikely that we are alone.

When I was younger most astronomers believed that maybe one in a million stars would have had a solar system. Current thought now is that planets outnumber stars - Of course "Planets" would simply consist of objects orbiting a star, from boulders to gas giants and everything inbetween.

Jimbob1977

In a world of smart phone proliferation, the number of UFO reports seems to be shrinking.

You would expect that more people should be capturing UFOs.

That being said, we are one planet in a universe of countless planets. Can we really be the only form of life?

To Alcohol

Saw one on the Naas to Kilcullen road one day. It was like a giant cigar in the sky. Could see green heads looking out the window. You might find this part hard to believe but one of them gave me the finger as they flew by. So yeah. I'm a believer.

randd1

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Surely they would have done this already?

We are only getting more advanced.

It would depend on how advanced they are. Some chimpanzee's wouldn't be too far off early Neanderthal's, and that's going back 300-400,000 years.

Imagine a race several million (or even hundreds of million) years ahead of us technologically and in terms of society? We'd be little more than animals to them.

And if humans are anything to go by, we certainly have no problems in eating any type of animal. Hell, there are humans that eat other humans, what's to put a hyper-advanced species from doing the same?

Then again, they might have tried this already and we just don't taste good to them. We might end up being their pets instead.

ambro25

In 40+ years, and with a very longstanding interest in all things flying and technological, I have only ever seen one instance of 'UFO', as in 'I've seen what I've seen and I can't explain it'. I suppose that makes me a believer by definition.

3 green lights or 'blobs' flying in v-formation within a very low cloud cover at night (couldn't distinguish shape or anything, just lights, landing light-bright and large, but diffused by bottom cloud layer), too distant from each other to be a single aircraft (unless it was truly massive, much larger than an AN26/A380), flying about jet-fast (too fast to be prop-driven), which turned 'as one' (rigid formation-keeping) from ENE bearing to NNE bearing...

...in *complete* silence the entire time (incl. when they passed overhead), which is what made it the 'U' in UFO for me.

We lived in the UK not far Doncaster at the time (early 2010s), and were well used to see jetliners on approach to that airport, even the heritage Vulcan flying around every now and then, besides the odd Eurofighter single or pair out of Coningsby, so I had good context for height/size/speed/noise reference.

I get the earlier smartphone evidence comments, but in that instance I'd have barely had time to grab and unlock the phone, never mind start recording, by the time it/they passed overhead and were gone.

Not enough of a believer to make the jump to aliens piloting the thing(s). But that was troubling.

Wibbs

randd1 wrote: »

It would depend on how advanced they are. Some chimpanzee's wouldn't be too far off early Neanderthal's, and that's going back 300-400,000 years.

They're really not. Not even close. To compare hominids with chimps you'd have to go back millions of years.

dubstepper

I don't believe that an advanced alien civilization would not be interested in humans. Yes they could have technology wildly beyond us but the fact that we have complicated societies with vast amount of written history and art, surely would mark us out as a species that is worth communicating with?

Unless the universe is teeming with life we would have to be of interest to an advanced species, even if only in the way a child's thoughts are of interest to an adult.

Maybe more likely is the great filter has not been passed.

cgcsb

randd1 wrote: »

It would depend on how advanced they are. Some chimpanzee's wouldn't be too far off early Neanderthal's, and that's going back 300-400,000 years.

Imagine a race several million (or even hundreds of million) years ahead of us technologically and in terms of society? We'd be little more than animals to them.

And if humans are anything to go by, we certainly have no problems in eating any type of animal. Hell, there are humans that eat other humans, what's to put a hyper-advanced species from doing the same?

Then again, they might have tried this already and we just don't taste good to them. We might end up being their pets instead.

You can't even get Irish aul lads to eat vegetables or beef steak that is not incinerated. Ask them to eat a slice of alien meat.

randd1

Wibbs wrote: »

They're really not. Not even close. To compare hominids with chimps you'd have to go back millions of years.

I meant technologically speaking.

Wibbs

randd1 wrote: »

I meant technologically speaking.

Still no though Rand. While chimps use tools they modify them very little. So sticks to fish for termites and hammer and anvil stones, which is impressive enough though some members of the crow family do similar.

So a few animals use tools, but Hominids stand out because we made tools to make other tools. That's a huge step and we were making shaped for purpose tools well over two million years ago and 3-400,000 years ago had bifacially worked hand axes, scrapers, cleavers, blades, spear points and awls which require planning and skill to produce and teach others and they were working extensively with wood and leather and other materials, never mind command of fire. We had already started to externalise our evolution a million years plus ago, something no other animal has ever done.

This is 500,000 plus years ago.



No chimp would even know what to do with that never mind make it. Even the picture above would make no sense to one. In fairness it is easy to forget just how different we are as an animal. Much of it down to the opposite swing away from the old notion that we were lords above the beasts to "we're just another animal", but we are very much the outlier in the natural world.

Ipso

bangkok wrote: »

or maybe they put us here and come every so often to observe

Or they didn’t and don’t.

MadYaker

I don't think its a case of believing anymore. There was actual footage released by the US government.

bangkok

Ipso wrote: »

Or they didn’t and don’t.

they def visit imo. too many credible stories

dubstepper

When you think about it, an alien species would need to develop around a star. The nearest to us, traveling near the speed of light, would be a 4.3 year journey. Extremely unlikely you would undertake something like that, if it was even possible, and not make yourself known. Also for those travelers if they returned home after 9 years traveling near the speed of light their families would be something like 70 years older. Again unlikely to do this without some purpose beyond scaring some yokel.

bangkok

dubstepper wrote: »

When you think about it, an alien species would need to develop around a star. The nearest to us, traveling near the speed of light, would be a 4.3 year journey. Extremely unlikely you would undertake something like that, if it was even possible, and not make yourself known. Also for those travelers if they returned home after 9 years traveling near the speed of light their families would be something like 70 years older. Again unlikely to do this without some purpose beyond scaring some yokel.

i highly doubt they travel like that, im sure they can bend time and space and use worm holes to pop wherever they want to ant any given time. basically like getting 2 points on a piece of paper, folding the 2 points of paper together and punching a way through

ShatterAlan

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Do I believe in life on other planets? Yes. I believe there are many many worlds out there with intelligent life. And many worlds far far more advanced than we are.

However, do I believe in aliens visiting Earth? No. I did as a kid but no. Our current understanding of the physics simply puts faster than light as impossible.

That's not to say that tomorrow somebody could come out and say "oh wait, they forgot to carry a 1 here, yep.... Yep faster than light travel IS possible and REALLY easy!!!". I mean somebody could come out with a fundamental shift in our perception of the universe and physics but I'm not holding my breath.

I do believe that we will find conclusive proof of extraterrestrial life in the next 20 years or so. It may be as simple as 100% conclusive evidence that bacteria existed millions of years ago on Mars or it may be atmospheric analysis of extra-solar planets. But I don't believe that an alien spaceship is going to land on the Whitehouse lawn....

You beat me to the punch.


The odds of there NOT being life somewhere in the universe are virtually nil. The closest star to our Solar System is Proxima Centauri and an Earth sized planet, Proxima B, within the habitable zone orbits Proxima Centauri. If there was an advanced civilization on Proxima B and they had the technology to travel at or near lightspeed it would take them 4.3 years to get to our Solar System. If they have perfected that technology then surely they would have long ago developed a caveman technology by comparison, i.e. radio wave transmission and should have been blasting out messages all over the place for millenia.



Getting back to the travel times. If they only have the technology to travel as fast as Voyager 1 (17 Km per second) the time to get to Earth would be 76,000 years. If water is the basis of life you're going to need to pack a lot of it for a journey of that length.

Ipso

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

In a world of smart phone proliferation, the number of UFO reports seems to be shrinking.

You would expect that more people should be capturing UFOs.

That being said, we are one planet in a universe of countless planets. Can we really be the only form of life?

Expect more of the idea that UFOs are inter dimensional/spiritual instead of interstellar, there will probably be some woo to explain why we can't see them or photograph them.

ShatterAlan

cgcsb wrote: »

Well that's the thing. 200 years ago flying machines to take people to distant continents in a few hours was thought both impossible and indeed laughable. Most people don't have good imaginations and can't allow themselves to imagine scenarios too far beyond what they know.



I do think that there must be at least microbes os some sort of plant in the sub surface seas on the moons of the gas giants and I've no doubt there was once microbes on mars.

Something that's always baffled me is how long it took us to take to the skies. Forget about the internal combustion engine. That took a while to develop and a lot of the physics and chemistry were still evolving at the time. But we were seafaring with sails and oars and rudders for millenia. Take a look at the hang-glider. What could be simpler? It has no moving parts and the bow and arrow or church bell or windmill is a space-age technology by comparison.


How come people weren't floating around the friggin' skies in hang-gliders and para-gliders since Christ was a child?

cgcsb

dubstepper wrote: »

When you think about it, an alien species would need to develop around a star. The nearest to us, traveling near the speed of light, would be a 4.3 year journey. Extremely unlikely you would undertake something like that, if it was even possible, and not make yourself known. Also for those travelers if they returned home after 9 years traveling near the speed of light their families would be something like 70 years older. Again unlikely to do this without some purpose beyond scaring some yokel.

The families would be 9 Earth years older and the traveler would be the same age as when they left.

Given that the amount of energy required to push a vehicle at such a speed would be so high and the risk of impacts from microscopic objects at that speed would cause quite the boom, it's likely such a journey would only be possible by some alternative means, some sort of manipulation of space or bending of the rules of physics perhaps.

Meawhile on Earth the Orion project promised to deliver a spacecraft propulsion system capable of 5% light speed with existing technology, an automated mission from Earth could reach Proxima Centuri B in 90years, which isn't a lot really in the scheme of things, we'd probably get at least decent pictures within our lifetimes and the next generation would know what the nearest star system looked like.

Of course there's an outdated treaty against nuclear tech in space for some reason, and there's no profit in it really, just knowledge to be gained and our current age of ignorance doesn't value such things.

Gretas Gonna Get Ya!

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Do I believe in life on other planets? Yes. I believe there are many many worlds out there with intelligent life. And many worlds far far more advanced than we are.

Why does practically everyone imagine an alien life form, as being more intelligent that us humans?

Isn't it just as plausible, if such aliens do exist, that they could be less intelligent than us or perhaps just on par with us in terms of advancement?

I think it's quite possible, that we could discover life on another planet in the next 100 years... but we may have to help these aliens to reach our level of intelligence and expertise.

cgcsb

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Something that's always baffled me is how long it took us to take to the skies. Forget about the internal combustion engine. That took a while to develop and a lot of the physics and chemistry were still evolving at the time. But we were seafaring with sails and oars and rudders for millenia. Take a look at the hang-glider. What could be simpler? It has no moving parts and the bow and arrow or church bell or windmill is a space-age technology by comparison.


How come people weren't floating around the friggin' skies in hang-gliders and para-gliders since Christ was a child?

Leonardo DaVinci designed such a device from observing how bats fly (they have to take off from some height). I think the key hang up was; the carbon fibre lightweight frame of such modern devices wasn't around at the time. A timber framed glider would either be to heavy or would break from the weight of a person if the sections were thin enough (light enough) to fly.

If Renaissance Europeans had access to bamboo in plentiful amounts, I think they would have developed gliders at that time. Assuming a practical military or transport application could be found for them. Asian cultures had not developed glass at that point making telescopes and therefore exploration by navigating the stars impractical.

cgcsb

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Why does practically everyone imagine an alien life form, as being more intelligent that us humans?

Isn't it just as plausible, if such aliens do exist, that they could be less intelligent than us or perhaps just on par with us in terms of advancement?

I think it's quite possible, that we could discover life on another planet in the next 100 years... but we may have to help these aliens to reach our level of intelligence and expertise.

This is something else to consider, if we were to land on proxima century B and discover a species that was just about to discover electricity, we could do great damage to their development. They could view the experience in a religious context and start worshiping any probe that lands and have wars over access.

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWWe3AuGb8c

NIMAN

So fake its untrue.
Do people actually believe these things?

ShatterAlan

bangkok wrote: »

they def visit imo. too many credible stories

Like what?

NIMAN

Ipso wrote: »

Expect more of the idea that UFOs are inter dimensional/spiritual instead of interstellar, there will probably be some woo to explain why we can't see them or photograph them.

Like ghosts.

Or else, like ghosts, they just don't exist?

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONxpNKFog64

bangkok

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Like what?

1976 Tehran

Valentich disapperance

Rendelsham forrest incident

Japan Air lines flight incident

Varginha incident Brazil

Shag Harbour incident

Phoneix Lights

Roswell

Travis Walton

O Hare International airport incident


so many more incidents they are just off the top of my head

ShatterAlan

cgcsb wrote: »

Leonardo DaVinci designed such a device from observing how bats fly (they have to take off from some height). I think the key hang up was; the carbon fibre lightweight frame of such modern devices wasn't around at the time. A timber framed glider would either be to heavy or would break from the weight of a person if the sections were thin enough (light enough) to fly.

If Renaissance Europeans had access to bamboo in plentiful amounts, I think they would have developed gliders at that time. Assuming a practical military or transport application could be found for them. Asian cultures had not developed glass at that point making telescopes and therefore exploration by navigating the stars impractical.

And the para-glider that doesn't have a frame, just a canopy from which is suspended a fabric seat that you park your arse in and float about the hillside?

Wibbs

Well he did come up with the parachute.

JasonStatham

bangkok wrote: »

1976 Tehran

Valentich disapperance

Rendelsham forrest incident

Japan Air lines flight incident

Varginha incident Brazil

Shag Harbour incident

Phoneix Lights

Roswell

Travis Walton

O Hare International airport incident


so many more incidents they are just off the top of my head

I read about the Phoenix Lights sightings. Very bizarre altogether...

Ipso

bangkok wrote: »

1976 Tehran

Valentich disapperance

Rendelsham forrest incident

Japan Air lines flight incident

Varginha incident Brazil

Shag Harbour incident

Phoneix Lights

Roswell

Travis Walton

O Hare International airport incident


so many more incidents they are just off the top of my head

Roswell is nonsense, man who was reading books on new flying saucer phenomenon says weather balloon is UFO, changes the story the next day. All is forgotten about until 30 years later when stories start to emerge to coincide with a book. More books follow with each one trying to out do the other; more than one crash site, bodies recovered etc
Something like 11 potential crash sites have been put forward by all the witnesses. You's think they'd all agree on where it happened.
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4079

ShatterAlan

cgcsb wrote: »

Leonardo DaVinci designed such a device from observing how bats fly (they have to take off from some height). I think the key hang up was; the carbon fibre lightweight frame of such modern devices wasn't around at the time. A timber framed glider would either be to heavy or would break from the weight of a person if the sections were thin enough (light enough) to fly.

If Renaissance Europeans had access to bamboo in plentiful amounts, I think they would have developed gliders at that time. Assuming a practical military or transport application could be found for them. Asian cultures had not developed glass at that point making telescopes and therefore exploration by navigating the stars impractical.

Also the Asians were flying kites for centuries and those Chinese lanterns too.


Attaching a mouse to the kite probably wouldn't have made much difference to it's performance. Scale it up to carry a light (and brave) human.
I know that hindsight is 20/20 but if medieval printing presses and automatons and windmills could be de rigeur then how come the hang-glider took so long.?

Wibbs

cgcsb wrote: »

If Renaissance Europeans had access to bamboo in plentiful amounts, I think they would have developed gliders at that time. Assuming a practical military or transport application could be found for them. Asian cultures had not developed glass at that point making telescopes and therefore exploration by navigating the stars impractical.

Well kinda. The Asians had glass but it wasn't very good quality and that was down to another quirk of fate, they had porcelain of very high quality and had it for ages so glass was left on the to do list or ignored. Europe had much less fine ceramics so glass had gotten a leg up from early on.

These quirks of fate can impact massively on development. Take the Chinese again. They had gunpowder, the compass, blast furnaces, the ships rudder, paper, printing long before Europeans, but didn't do nearly so much with any of them. Why? Well first off they were already had an empire so weren't really looking to build one, rather defend what they had. Europe after Rome fell was a bunch of heavily competitive nation states looking to build another Rome(while being somewhat cohesive and connected by a common faith), so after internal empire building was a dead loss they looked outwards. And because of this internal competition for advantage innovations were jumped upon, then the guys next door innovated on that and so on. It was a hothouse for it.

Secondly China had developed a massive bureaucracy over a thousand and more years old, originally built around their truly gargantuan irrigation and agricultural schemes. This bureaucracy and the associated social strata was very strict and social mobility was low, so innovating wouldn't tend to get you cash or social cache. In Europe, and it had been like this for a very long time, you invented a better mousetrap you got the cash and the social cache and again because of its many nation states if your own didn't appreciate your mousetrap the country next door might. Which again plugged into the internal competition.

Thirdly philosophy and religion played a part. In Europe the notion that the universe was a logical and divisible thing made by a logical god(s) understandable to humans who were lords over lesser nature meant that humans could look at it more closely and understand it and turn it to it's needs. Even in early Greek times we can see this. Whereas the eastern notion of a reed bends with the wind, with nature, the Greeks sought to conquer nature to their own purpose. If the wind broke the reed, you don't go off and sit on a mountain going OMMMM, you build a better stronger fecking reed to resist the wind.

And all of those Chinese ideas passed through the Arab world before they got to Europe and again did little in the region and again because of local culture. Take printing. Arab scribes were highly thought of and thought highly of themselves so printing was rejected hard by them and all "right thinking" men. To the degree that the first printed Quran was a small run in 16th century Italy, another in 18th century Russia and the one around today is based off the first truly large print run and in a Muslim nation in Egypt in the 1920's. In Europe the bible was the first thing to be printed pretty much and sold like hot cakes, which of course then had people read it from cover to cover, discover errors of faith by the church and then you get the reformation which was driven by the printing press, which in turn had people questioning absolutes and printing their answers and cue more internal competition and innovation and the age of enlightenment.

Basically the tiniest things can have huge effects and where these things are created or move to can have equally huge effects.

Plus you need your ducks in a row to come together for things to happen. So if Europe had bamboo, then maybe flight would have taken off(sorry) or maybe not. The need has to be there, or a very wealthy patron who has the horn for it, who then finds a Leo DaVinci to get it working(if you can keep the bugger interested for long enough...). And what need would there be then? Telescopes gave you observation from a distance without faffing about dangerously in the air. Actually telescopes really get their initial popularity not because of observation of the heavens or anything so lofty, or because of the military considerations, but because Galileo had a brainwave for making a bit of spare cash, as you do, and developed better ones and sold them to Italian merchants to spot goods ships coming in ahead of their competitors so they could better fix the prices. Could you predict that ahead of time? Or today, if we didn't know that?

What you know is a product of the truth of your time and that truth can be hard to shift for a new one. A philosopher(whose name escapes) noted this in a conversation with his students who remarked that people must have been stupid back then to think the sun went around the Earth. His reply was would a sunset have looked any different to them? Some of the greatest minds in history believing the sun did orbit the earth came up with fantastically complex maths and models to prove it did, so it did. Until it didn't.

ShatterAlan

bangkok wrote: »

1976 Tehran

Valentich disapperance

Rendelsham forrest incident

Japan Air lines flight incident

Varginha incident Brazil

Shag Harbour incident

Phoneix Lights

Roswell

Travis Walton

O Hare International airport incident


so many more incidents they are just off the top of my head

OK many of these incidents are based on witnesses' accounts. And that's fine.



What's your take on the witnesses on the ground in Ukraine who saw a jet fighter climbing in a shark-on-seal maneuvre to attack flight MH-17?

bangkok

ShatterAlan wrote: »

OK many of these incidents are based on witnesses' accounts. And that's fine.



What's your take on the witnesses on the ground in Ukraine who saw a jet fighter climbing in a shark-on-seal maneuvre to attack flight MH-17?

Many of those accounts were witnessed by high up personel both on radar and visual. Read up on the tehran indicent or the japan airlines incident. Even randelsham forrest, probably even bigger than roswell. The ohare international airport ufo sighting was spotted by 12 pilots yet didnt even show up radar

here's what I think about UFO's and same said abductions ok.

Assume the sea is an inner space and all above it is outer spare to a shark.
Suddenly he's swimming along and he's jolted up, tagged and returned before he knows what's happening. This is done so we can study sharks. They have drive and instincts where humans have intelligence, morality, ethics etc!!!

I'm sure when sharks see a boat, they cannot understand what it is but they see a shape, ripples etc. This is how I see us, is it so hard to consider UFO's are much the same..Our outer space is as vast in context. People who have been abducted may well be sharks to higher intelligence, tagged and studied.

It's how I kinda see it, I;m no tin foil hat guy though.

cgcsb

ShatterAlan wrote: »

And the para-glider that doesn't have a frame, just a canopy from which is suspended a fabric seat that you park your arse in and float about the hillside?

Depends on plastic fibres to work. Also today is a for sure way to die.

cgcsb

Wibbs wrote: »

Well kinda. The Asians had glass but it wasn't very good quality and that was down to another quirk of fate, they had porcelain of very high quality and had it for ages so glass was left on the to do list or ignored. Europe had much less fine ceramics so glass had gotten a leg up from early on.

These quirks of fate can impact massively on development. Take the Chinese again. They had gunpowder, the compass, blast furnaces, the ships rudder, paper, printing long before Europeans, but didn't do nearly so much with any of them. Why? Well first off they were already had an empire so weren't really looking to build one, rather defend what they had. Europe after Rome fell was a bunch of heavily competitive nation states looking to build another Rome(while being somewhat cohesive and connected by a common faith), so after internal empire building was a dead loss they looked outwards. And because of this internal competition for advantage innovations were jumped upon, then the guys next door innovated on that and so on. It was a hothouse for it.

Secondly China had developed a massive bureaucracy over a thousand and more years old, originally built around their truly gargantuan irrigation and agricultural schemes. This bureaucracy and the associated social strata was very strict and social mobility was low, so innovating wouldn't tend to get you cash or social cache. In Europe, and it had been like this for a very long time, you invented a better mousetrap you got the cash and the social cache and again because of its many nation states if your own didn't appreciate your mousetrap the country next door might. Which again plugged into the internal competition.

Thirdly philosophy and religion played a part. In Europe the notion that the universe was a logical and divisible thing made by a logical god(s) understandable to humans who were lords over lesser nature meant that humans could look at it more closely and understand it and turn it to it's needs. Even in early Greek times we can see this. Whereas the eastern notion of a reed bends with the wind, with nature, the Greeks sought to conquer nature to their own purpose. If the wind broke the reed, you don't go off and sit on a mountain going OMMMM, you build a better stronger fecking reed to resist the wind.

And all of those Chinese ideas passed through the Arab world before they got to Europe and again did little in the region and again because of local culture. Take printing. Arab scribes were highly thought of and thought highly of themselves so printing was rejected hard by them and all "right thinking" men. To the degree that the first printed Quran was a small run in 16th century Italy, another in 18th century Russia and the one around today is based off the first truly large print run and in a Muslim nation in Egypt in the 1920's. In Europe the bible was the first thing to be printed pretty much and sold like hot cakes, which of course then had people read it from cover to cover, discover errors of faith by the church and then you get the reformation which was driven by the printing press, which in turn had people questioning absolutes and printing their answers and cue more internal competition and innovation and the age of enlightenment.

Basically the tiniest things can have huge effects and where these things are created or move to can have equally huge effects.

Plus you need your ducks in a row to come together for things to happen. So if Europe had bamboo, then maybe flight would have taken off(sorry) or maybe not. The need has to be there, or a very wealthy patron who has the horn for it, who then finds a Leo DaVinci to get it working(if you can keep the bugger interested for long enough...). And what need would there be then? Telescopes gave you observation from a distance without faffing about dangerously in the air. Actually telescopes really get their initial popularity not because of observation of the heavens or anything so lofty, or because of the military considerations, but because Galileo had a brainwave for making a bit of spare cash, as you do, and developed better ones and sold them to Italian merchants to spot goods ships coming in ahead of their competitors so they could better fix the prices. Could you predict that ahead of time? Or today, if we didn't know that?

What you know is a product of the truth of your time and that truth can be hard to shift for a new one. A philosopher(whose name escapes) noted this in a conversation with his students who remarked that people must have been stupid back then to think the sun went around the Earth. His reply was would a sunset have looked any different to them? Some of the greatest minds in history believing the sun did orbit the earth came up with fantastically complex maths and models to prove it did, so it did. Until it didn't.

Thanks for this reply. As we can see on earth tiny events or circumstances of geography have massive impacts on development of societies. There are obviously the development of societies on other planners have their own variables. I'm a planned with less gravity bipeds could have developed flight much earlier for example.

kingtiger

JasonStatham wrote: »

I read about the Phoenix Lights sightings. Very bizarre altogether...

ah here, they were definitely flares

TheIrishGrover

Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »

Why does practically everyone imagine an alien life form, as being more intelligent that us humans?

Isn't it just as plausible, if such aliens do exist, that they could be less intelligent than us or perhaps just on par with us in terms of advancement?

I think it's quite possible, that we could discover life on another planet in the next 100 years... but we may have to help these aliens to reach our level of intelligence and expertise.

Hence the word many and not all

Psychlops

I believe they exist, What I dont get is people that say they dont, we can not be the only planet in the vastness of Space to have life, not too hot & not too cold where we are, yet who is to say they have to be near a Star or in a goldilocks zone like we are, maybe they thrive in the extreme heat or extreme cold of where they are.

Ipso

If life elsewhere got to an advanced stage of technology, their interaction with us would be less Ancient Aliens/X-Files and more like Rendezvous with Rama.

Lewis_Benson

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Have you every seen an unidentified flying object?
!

No.

bangkok

kingtiger wrote: »

ah here, they were definitely flares

Shortly after the lights, Arizona Governor Fife Symington III held a press conference, stating that "they found who was responsible". He proceeded to make light of the situation by bringing his aide on stage dressed in an alien costume. (Dateline, NBC). But in March 2007, Symington said that he had witnessed one of the "crafts of unknown origin" during the 1997 event, although he did not go public with the information.[26][27][28][29] In an interview with The Daily Courier in Prescott, Arizona, Symington said, "I'm a pilot and I know just about every machine that flies. It was bigger than anything that I've ever seen. It remains a great mystery. Other people saw it, responsible people. I don't know why people would ridicule it".[30] Symington had earlier said, "It was enormous and inexplicable. Who knows where it came from? A lot of people saw it, and I saw it too. It was dramatic. And it couldn't have been flares because it was too symmetrical. It had a geometric outline, a constant shape.[31]

Symington also noted that he requested information from the commander of Luke Air Force Base, the general of the National Guard, and the head of the Department of Public Safety. But none of the officials he contacted had an answer for what had happened, and were also perplexed.[31] Later, he responded to an Air Force explanation that the lights were flares: "As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man made object I'd ever seen. And it was certainly not high-altitude flares because flares don't fly in formation".[3] In an episode of the television show UFO Hunters called "The Arizona Lights", Symington said that he contacted[when?] the military asking what the lights were. The response was "no comment". He pointed out that he was the governor of Arizona at the time, not just some ordinary civilian.[32]

Frances Barwood, the 1997 Phoenix city councilwoman who launched an investigation into the event, said that of the over 700 witnesses she interviewed, "The government never interviewed even one

ArchXStanton

Rhys Essien wrote: »

They seem to have been witnessed for millennia. Christopher Columbus wrote something about seeing a craft. The monks in Ireland saw something strange in the sky in the 1400’s. In WWII all the reports from pilots about the 'Foo Fighters'.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1561_celestial_phenomenon_over_Nuremberg

kingtiger

bangkok wrote: »

Symington also noted that he requested information from the commander of Luke Air Force Base, the general of the National Guard, and the head of the Department of Public Safety. But none of the officials he contacted had an answer for what had happened, and were also perplexed.[31] Later, he responded to an Air Force explanation that the lights were flares: "As a pilot and a former Air Force Officer, I can definitively say that this craft did not resemble any man made object I'd ever seen"

Frances Barwood, the 1997 Phoenix city councilwoman who launched an investigation into the event, said that of the over 700 witnesses she interviewed, "The government never interviewed even one

the US Air Force said that a squadron of A10 Warthog aircraft was dropping flares over the area that night as part of a training exercise and they were also flying in formation with night illumination

unhappys10

kingtiger wrote: »

the US Air Force said that a squadron of A10 Warthog aircraft was dropping flares over the area that night as part of a training exercise and they were also flying in formation with night illumination

Oh well if they said that, case closed...

kingtiger

unhappys10 wrote: »

Oh well if they said that, case closed...

They have logs of visiting aircraft and confirmed that the Maryland Air National Guard had taken part in a formation exercise that night where aircraft peeled off one or two at a time to drop flares