Completely Put Off Having Children

s1ippy

Tell me how wrote: »

This reads eerily like you have decided that euthanasia is the right path for your grandmother which is one of the main reasons why it is still illegal apart from exceptional cases in some locations.

I can easily see how it could lead to exploitation of older people who have someone whispering in their ear that now is the time or that the have a moment of weakness themselves and make a decision which there is no coming back from.

Where do you decide that they can have no quality of life or that it is not significantly less than what they were used to which you couldn't also make for a 50 year old who can no longer play sport or run around like they were a teenager?

She has told me she would rather be dead many times since her cancer diagnosis, increasingly more in the last while. She doesn't know she has MRSA either because it would only add to her stress. I would not presume to be the one making the decision in this instance as she has all her faculties perfectly intact that this point. I would love for her to be able to make this decision, as would I rather anyone have agency in their own death when they are suffering hugely. You should have a watch of "Whose Life is it Anyway?", it's about a sculptor who loses the use of his hands and wants to be allowed to end his own life. It's not a true story to my knowledge but studies have been done on medical ethics stemming from the issues in it.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://jme.bmj.com/content/medethics/21/3/179.full.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQ2KGMj9XpAhWrUBUIHUGHBJ8QFjAMegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw08zefs20ik1FutOKoij6zY

Dave147

My son is *my* entire world, I had good fun before he was born, but the 32 years before him are not anywhere near what my life is like now. Raising a kid is hard work, but seeing his smile, watching him grow up is literally the greatest thing that's ever happened to me. I don't have a lot of money and tbh life can be a struggle with mortgage loans and bills, I don't smoke, drink or gamble and don't miss any of it. Getting home from work to see my son waiting at the door is just a feeling I never want to give up.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I was lost when my girlfriend got pregnant. I was 23 and she was 22. We'd been fcking around since Secondary School, I just couldn't believe it, she told me me she was on the pill.

I I dreaded and feared the outcome, we're Catholics, no slack at all.


But I'll tell you one thing, when that boy was born it was the prouedest moment of my life. I cried in Portlaoise hospital.

wench

Mr_Muffin wrote: »

It's a gamble. How do you really know you won't enjoy being a parent unless you become one?

If it turns out you don't enjoy it the returns policy is terrible.

Hamachi

jester77 wrote: »

Emigration will always be there. It's what I did, and when I see the lifestyle my kids have here in Germany compared to in Ireland, I don't see myself returning.

Covid-19 lockdown restrictions aside, most Irish children have a terrific upbringing and lifestyle in 2020. Pretty much on par with what’s available in Germany.

Without knowing anything about you, I sense that your perception of an Irish childhood is rooted in the past, possibly the somewhat grim 1980s?

One eyed Jack

If I didn’t have a child before, this thread would certainly put me off having them.


Not enough to not have children of course, because I always wanted to have children. There’s just no need for people tying themselves up in knots or going overboard with how great it is or isn’t to have or not to have children. Ultimately it’s very much a decision an individual has to make for themselves, as opposed to behaving like children where adults are expected to make their decisions for them.

pinkyeye

pinkyeye wrote: »

The point is when you're older the people who will love you unconditionally will be your children if your parents and siblings are dead..

I don't believe that is true at all. Parents will always love their children unconditionally but it doesn't work the other way.
Never a guarantee your child will love you

Sky King

Plenty of parents on here saying 'oh I don't miss getting smashed with my mates' or any of the things they did in their 20's.

For me the salient point is: If you are leading a life of relative contentment, why would you trade it all for what is in the mystery box?

That's a one-way door, man. There's no going back.

Not for me, thanks.

Feisar

wench wrote: »

If it turns out you don't enjoy it the returns policy is terrible.

I know of a woman that decided it wasn't for her and put the child up for adoption.

Wabbit Ears

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't believe that is true at all. Parents will always love their children unconditionally but it doesn't work the other way.
Never a guarantee your child will love you

It not true that parents will love their children unconditionally. As someone who suffered a childhood with a toxic narcissist mother I can say from personal experience peoples capacity to love is an individual thing and having kids doesn't make some people capable of it.My sister wont have kids by choice for fear that she'll be like our mother and, tbh, shes right, they are very alike.

joe40

Hamachi wrote: »

Covid-19 lockdown restrictions aside, most Irish children have a terrific upbringing and lifestyle in 2020. Pretty much on par with what’s available in Germany.

Without knowing anything about you, I sense that your perception of an Irish childhood is rooted in the past, possibly the somewhat grim 1980s?

Yes, I agree with this, Ireland has its issues but overall a good place to rear kids.

nthclare

Out the other side now, my son's 19.
I'm a reasonably young dad, only 44 so he's independent and going his own way...

Paid my last weekly maintenance there last Wednesday...no doubt I'll help him out if he's stuck for money now and again and he's welcome to come stay with me anytime.

But it's a new chapter in his life and mine, he told me last week he won't be coming to me as much anymore, nothing personal dad

I was his age in the 90's and I hardly ever seen my parents. Was living between Cork and Clare from the age of 19 until around 25 coming home now and again, more so in the First two summers..
Every weekend out Clubbing or off to Lahinch or Doolin with the lads, staying in tent's and youth hostels or a mobile home..

Taking yolk's or getting pissed... harmless fun tbh

cgcsb

sabat wrote: »

The urge to reproduce is not a "societal norm"; it's a biological fact and the "freedom" people think they are experiencing is a string of products and services that have been packaged up and marketed to them by the capitalist consumerist machine by manipulating those same natural urges. Put simply, having a couple piss their 20s and 30s away is a lot more profitable for the machine than them settling down quietly.

Is that true? I mean a child can piss through your savings pretty quick.

s7ryf3925pivug

Premature birth and two weeks in NICU. For most of the first year I wondered if he'd wake up every time he went to bed. My wife is only now coming out of an extended period of postnatal depression characterized by anger and paranoia. My kid has rarely slept through a night and most typically would wake twice and stay awake for a long time. I have dealt with that by myself since he was about 9 months old on medical advice, so I've gone through an extended period of sleep deprivation. Took a break from my career which had been going very well. Been living off capital for the last year. Not sure what the landscape will be like for me going back, in light of covid etc.

Lots of surprises. Kid is thriving now at two and I'm still happy we had him. But I've changed my mind about having another. Would still like one in principle, but I don't have capacity to handle any of the above issues occurring again, or the money to take time off working again if they did.

It would have been easier to have had kids younger. I had a lot more energy at 30 than I do now at 40.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, kind of..in 100 years like, unless you contribute something major to humanity there will be nothing left of you..no one will remember you..

Had you a couple of children there could be 50 people in existence because of you.. who, if they looked back their family tree they'd find you..

So you're saying that having kids MIGHT give you the post mortem satisfaction of an unknown relative looking you up on some family tree register. Wow, the joy, it's a tough one but I'll take money and silence instead thanks. 99.9% of humans are forgotten 100 years after their death, I'm not special.

cgcsb

FVP3 wrote: »

Well the best time to be alive is not the peak, when it might go downhill, but just before the peak and approaching it. The baby boomers probably lived in the best time, at least for the West. Although they did have the cold war over their heads. for Europe and the US the best times are probably in the past.

In China having a child might be pretty exciting, afterall the change seen in this generation has been light speed.

cgcsb

FluffyTowel wrote: »

Think we are better off just getting knocked up at 16 or so, and then free to enjoy later years in peace.

Problem is you have to be born wealthy to house yourself now, you'd end up 3 generations in a house until the grand child could afford to cripple himself with a mortgage at age 40.

JustAThought

I was watching a young adult swinging with great enthuiasm in a local playground and was torn between feeling aggrieved and amused. The he started a high pitched wailing as he swung and I realised he was mentally disabled. I looked around and I will never forget the look of absolute despair and anguish on his mother face nearby.

A healthy child or one that has prospects of recovery in Ireland is one story, but having a severely disabled, autistic or mentally ill one is an entirely different saga and one where to our unending shame the civil servants and politicians that make the decisions have utterly thrown those parents to the wolves with a life of unforgiving and relentless pain and merciless begging for basics and services with no end or hope except either the parents or child dying. God help the patents or single mother with a badly autistic or profoundly disabled child - it will be life of begging from charities for the little they can give and no services and merciless misery. As a nation we shoiud be utterly ashamed of what we make these families go through while we fling houses and money at allcomers and every other project.

cgcsb

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

A buddy of mine has a plan to just take a cocktail of drugs when he gets too old...he watched his grandfather suffer for years with zero quality of life, literally being pumped full of drugs to just keep him alive...how is that considered humane

We euthanise dogs if they have chronic incurable pain but we cannot afford the same mercy to people, even if they beg for it. Quite shameful really.

j.s. pill II

An interesting take on the 'absolute squalor' thesis in the Irish Times today :pac:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/is-it-okay-to-have-children-in-a-time-of-climate-chaos-1.4258290

EmmetSpiceland

Jeez, I’m surprised some of you ever leave the house with all the “what ifs” that could befall you.

bitofabind

j.s. pill II wrote: »

An interesting take on the 'absolute squalor' thesis in the Irish Times today :pac:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/is-it-okay-to-have-children-in-a-time-of-climate-chaos-1.4258290

I highly doubt too many people are thinking about climate change and the state of the world when it comes to their decision to have or not have kids. It's too abstract a concept.

From experience and certainly if you look at this thread, people fall into buckets of either primal urge to reproduce or in other words were / became "broody", natural progression of a relationship and kids seemed like a logical next step, never thought about it but got preggers and sure it's all been lovely or on the other side - never imagined or wanted kids, or never met the right person to do it with, so didn't have kids. With some variations in between. I think the decision is a lot more personal to people than "I want to save the planet by not producing spawn."

Roger the cabin boy

j.s. pill II wrote: »

An interesting take on the 'absolute squalor' thesis in the Irish Times today :pac:

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/is-it-okay-to-have-children-in-a-time-of-climate-chaos-1.4258290

How about:

"Oh hai! we are having kids and they will be brought up as we are, to love and respect the earth and to show others that respect and love.

We will be volunteering to clean the beaches, we will live by example and be sustainable, we will use ourselves and our generations to encourage others to do same."


Christ on a bike, this generation is pathetic. No wonder when we are confronted with one of natures less lethal torments, we just run indoors and hide under the bed.

bitofabind

bitofabind wrote: »

. I think the decision is a lot more personal to people than "I want to save the planet by not producing spawn."

It is kind of interesting that it's pretty much the first justification brought up though..

Hector Savage

DrPhilG wrote: »

People who look at parents and give them the condescending "poor you, tied down for life to screaming brats, your life is not your own anymore" are assholes.

People who look at child free people and give them the condescending "poor you, having kids is the only true happiness, what an empty existence you must have" are assholes.

spot on!

Hamsterchops

Bumped into an old flame a few years ago, she still hadn't settled & started a family (by choice), but when I told her that I'd tied the knot & had children she said "well done, you chose to do it the hard way", by which I understood her to mean that having children is the hard way, and indeed it is, but that's the path I took ......

tobefrank321

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

bitofabind

Deleted User wrote: »

It is kind of interesting that it's pretty much the first justification brought up though..

Maybe because it's a logical argument? It's facts, like. And it's hard to explain or justify emotions, they're a lot more subjective than "there are already 7 billion people on the planet and having kids is demonstrably catastrophic for the environment."

I think these decisions are personal, and that's if they're actually consciously made and not a matter of it either just "happening" or "not happening" based on life circumstances. Most recent parents I know planned it having followed the traditional relationship progression route. With a few "just happened" folks who had unexpected pregnancies and went along with it. Most non-parents, like me, it just didn't or hasn't "happened" yet due to life circumstances. These wider arguments are irrelevant for most people IMO.

pgj2015

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

The one thing id be worried for the kids of today is robots taking a huge amount of jobs. will there be jobs for everyone who wants them? even if universal basic income is introduced, people are far better off working than getting money for nothing.

dartboardio

dartboardio wrote: »

I'm young and although I don't really 'like' children at the moment, I definitely want them down the line.

My main reasons would be that I grew up an only child and would love to have a busy home, with people running in and out all day.

A big family around at Christmas time, when you grow old, etc.

Id like to have at least two/or three when I'm older.

I can't think of any other reason other than I suppose I'd hate to grow old and never have a family around me. Ill never be an aunt as I have no siblings so I definitely want kids.

Although I'd be pretty old fashioned in my thinking so would love the idea of a 'husband and 4 kids' and would think if I didn't have children I'd see myself as odd

I completely understand and see how a life could be great without kids, but I'd feel like I was missing out for sure if I never had them.

Why would you consider children in your future if you did not like them? Do you think you would change your mind?

I think a lot of people have children for the "wrong" reasons. They fall in love with an ideal. A gorgeous baby, cuddles, love. It's so much more than that. Then there are those who want to fill a hole in themselves or even their relationship. Maybe they feel unloved, maybe they want to live through their child, maybe they want to save a marriage. They are simply not good reasons. Children are individuals and should never be used to compensate for our own lack.

A few people here have mentioned adoption or fostering as options well let me tell you that neither are a walk in the park. Children who have experienced a rupture between themselves and their biological parent require a particular heightened and attuned level of care from their "new" parents. Again I wonder about the reasons.

Having a child should be about that child. Not connected to ticking life stage boxes of romantic notions of making daisy chains in a field. In my opinion it is one of the most important roles a person could have and must be taken very seriously.

OP if you do decide to have a baby then strive to be good enough. Meet their emotional needs consistently. There will of course be times you won't but makesure you repair those times. Love them but they must know absolutely that they are loved. My own dad has never said those words to me "I love you Persepoly" but I have never once doubted it.

What you don't want is a scenario years down the line when your adult child is telling a therapist "I never felt loved" or "I don't recall feeling loved".

EmmetSpiceland

pgj2015 wrote: »

people are far netter off working than getting money for nothing.

People, or robots?

cgcsb

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

This is the thing, millenials and Gen Z middle class young adults cant afford to home themselves. How is that prosperous? Not just in Ireland but in every western country that hasn't taken a pro-active approach to housing.

Hamachi

Wanderer19 wrote: »

I feel guilty bringing two children into this world. Global warming, country is so badly managed, cost of housing, overpopulated. Lack of a good education or healthcare system. Places of natural beauty/historical interest being shut/restricted to the public. I can definitely understand why others wouldn't want children.

The hysteria emanating from this post is palpable. Much of if is not supported by data or facts.

- Lack of a good education: Ireland was ranked #10 globally in the 2019 PISA study, third highest in Europe just behind Finland and Estonia. That’s a pretty good outcome by any measure.

- Heath care: This is one of the safest countries in the world, in which to give birth. Sure, it’s not perfect and is not the best system in Europe. However, it’s still amongst the top cohort worldwide.

- Over-populated: Ireland has one of the lowest population densities in Europe. Our natural growth rate (births - deaths) is about 30K people per year. Self-sustaining, but hardly over-whelming.

- Beauty spots / places of historical interest: They’ll re-open when we beat this pandemic. All the metrics indicate that we’re getting there.

I truly hope that you do not transmit your bleak, pessimistic world view to your children. If so, you’re doing them a huge disservice and setting them up for a lifetime of being scared of their own shadows.

There is so much beauty in Ireland and the wider world. Please put down your phone and step outside to enjoy it.

FVP3

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Historically speaking, the world has never been more peaceful and prior to covid 19 prosperous. Its expected that most children born today can live into their 90s, with access to medicines and treatments. While covid 19 is an issue, its not the black death or some untreatable illness. Its a temporary blip that will resolve itself in a few years. Climate change may be a problem but its unlikely to be a significant problem for Ireland. Children born today can expect to live long healthy prosperous lives, far more so than any previous generation, most of whom did live in squalor.

That statement is well out of date. Sure by the standards of the 19th C and before the future may be bright but not by the standards of the post war era.

In fact living standards have either fallen or stagnated in most of the West, there are fewer well paying unionised jobs, and more job insecurity, as manufacturing has left for China. Houses are more expensive as is rent, in the "successful" areas. The reduces real disposable income and reduces home ownership, which used to be the definition of being middle class. Entire generations have been written off in Europe since 2008 and some of those will be hit by the second major crisis in ten years ( as have we all).

Pensions are uncertain and its likely that people will enter old age poor in the future and remain so. Life Expectancy is dropping in the US and that is likely to continue, and other western countries may follow. Taxes are inexorably going up to pay for a larger number of penionser, and theres' a marked reluctance to tax wealth, as I found out in a different thread. So the taxes will all be on wages.

I haven't mentioned climate change or automation, the former's effects will be seen in 2100 or later despite some of the more extravagant claims made, the latter is uncertain. Neither are likely to be good.

Funny enough, the crisis I am talking about derives from people having too few children, not too many.

FVP3

Hamachi wrote: »

The hysteria emanating from this post is palpable. Much of if is not supported by data or facts.

- Lack of a good education: Ireland was ranked #10 globally in the 2019 PISA study, third highest in Europe just behind Finland and Estonia. That’s a pretty good outcome by any measure.

- Heath care: This is one of the safest countries in the world, in which to give birth. Sure, it’s not perfect and is not the best system in Europe. However, it’s still amongst the top cohort worldwide.

- Over-populated: Ireland has one of the lowest population densities in Europe. Our natural growth rate (births - deaths) is about 30K people per year. Self-sustaining, but hardly over-whelming.

- Beauty spots / places of historical interest: They’ll re-open when we beat this pandemic. All the metrics indicate that we’re getting there.

I truly hope that you do not transmit your bleak, pessimistic world view to your children. If so, you’re doing them a huge disservice and setting them up for a lifetime of being scared of their own shadows.

There is so much beauty in Ireland and the wider world. Please put down your phone and step outside to enjoy it.

Ireland is actually in a good position, and we don't have that bad a leadership compared to the US and UK at present. However the large secular decline affecting the West will happen here eventually.

Hector Savage

FVP3 wrote: »

Ireland is actually in a good position, and we don't have that bad a leadership compared to the US and UK at present. However the large secular decline affecting the West will happen here eventually.

Large secular decline ? can you expand on that ?

FVP3

Hector Savage wrote: »

Large secular decline ? can you expand on that ?

Secular = long term.

Harry Palmr

Unfortunately this generation of potential home owners is going to be the first to be measurably poorer than their parents.

bilbot79

That society is awful is in fact the very reason to have children.

Please go ahead and produce a decent citizen, lest we be outnumbered by scrotes that indulge in squalor

Hector Savage

FVP3 wrote: »

Secular = long term.

are you saying secularism is declining though ?

FVP3

Hector Savage wrote: »

are you saying secularism is declining though ?

No I am saying that the term secular is another way of saying long term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_stagnation

I've never been particularly keen on having children but always considered it a possibility.

I think I'm now at the stage though that wanting kids would be a deal breaker for me in a potential future relationship.

Jenneke87

I just can not see a future for any children I night have. My sister gave forth to a little not last year and I fear for his future already, there will be nothing left for him.

bilbot79

bilbot79 wrote: »

Please go ahead and produce a decent citizen, lest we be outnumbered by scrotes that indulge in squalor

Working on it My kids so far are turning out alright. Who knows if they might derail over night some day though.

I recently took on some teenage "scrotes" from the local area though and have been turning them into upstanding citizens. So overall I think I have been doing a net positive to the world

Jenneke87

Jenneke87 wrote: »

I just can not see a future for any children I night have. My sister gave forth to a little not last year and I fear for his future already, there will be nothing left for him.

Why will there be nothing left for him?

c.p.w.g.w

bilbot79 wrote: »

That society is awful is in fact the very reason to have children.

Please go ahead and produce a decent citizen, lest we be outnumbered by scrotes that indulge in squalor

But aren't those scrotes that indulge in squalor have lower life expectancy as a result of poor education and depending on public health system

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why will there be nothing left for him?

You can't really blame the youth for this outlook either really though..
It's being drilled into them from every side..

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You can't really blame the youth for this outlook either really though..
It's being drilled into them from every side..

There are two quotes I came across a number of years ago. I can't remember who said them or the exact words. The first one is that we see the world as we are and the second is how some prisoners look out and see mud and others see stars.

The world is an amazing and beautiful place. It is also a terrible and ugly place. We can decide which view to focus on. I choose the first. That doesn't mean I am blind to the negatives but it just isn't part of my focus.

FVP3

Deleted User wrote: »

There are two quotes I came across a number of years ago. I can't remember who said them or the exact words. The first one is that we see the world as we are and the second is how some prisoners look out and see mud and others see stars.

The world is an amazing and beautiful place. It is also a terrible and ugly place. We can decide which view to focus on. I choose the first. That doesn't mean I am blind to the negatives but it just isn't part of my focus.

Be lucky to get a view of the stars in prison. You would need a room with a sky light? Also what about cloudy days?

You are right that the world is great in many ways. However the discussion here is about the future, and having children. While in no way personally pessimistic I am theoretically pessimistic about the future. I am not expecting societal collapse but I am expecting economically things to be worse for children growing into adults now.

Roger the cabin boy

Its almost like the economy is the only reason to live...

The end of growth based capitalism can't come soon enough