George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

SusieBlue

People saying to not jump to conclusions and to await an investigation into the incident, what a pity George Floyd wasn’t afforded the same luxury before being killed roadside by those disgraceful excuses of police officers.

The officer leaning on his neck was swaying back and forth, increasing and decreasing pressure.
Every time George went to take a deep breath, the officer leaned forward and increased the pressure with his body weight, effectively choking him.
You can clearly see it in the video.
This is how you suffocate someone ffs.
How was that not intentional?

walshb

Podge_irl wrote: »

He does not need to have intended to kill him for it to be murder.

Well, if it was my relative I think I'd be pushing for murder in the second degree....

Sean.3516

circadian wrote: »

That's 7 years old. The rise in fascist and racist organisations OPENLY protesting in the USA these last few years would indicate that this data is out of date.

It isn't out of date.

There've always been a few hundred whackos who get a parade permit every so often and march around. They are not in any way relevant in US society or politics. It was only after Trump got elected that people conveniently started paying attention to them. But they are not on the rise. In 2018 in Charlottesville (one year after the famous white supremacist rally that resulted in someone being killed) only a couple dozen fascists showed up. Down from hundreds the year before. There were more media than marchers there.

Nut picking is a very easy game to play in a country of 350 million people.

Sean.3516

Podge_irl wrote: »

He does not need to have intended to kill him for it to be murder.

The distinction between second degree murder and voluntary manslaughter is messy across all the different US states.

I don't know what the law is in Minnesota where this took place. I know that in Arizona for example second degree murder has to be intentional although not premeditated and manslaughter is neither intentional nor premeditated.

One could certainly argue that this was intentional although not premeditated and therefore might be second degree depending on Minnesota law but as I've said that's not explicitly clear. Based on video I'd say the officer was trying to keep the man subdued and did so in a heavy handed (and incompetent) way. Voluntary manslaughter or 2nd degree but certainly not 1st degree.

I guess in previous posts I was thinking more from the Irish perspective where we essentially only have two categories: murder and manslaughter.

walshb

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The distinction between second degree murder and voluntary manslaughter is messy across all the different US states.

I don't know what the law is in Minnesota where this took place. I know that in Arizona for example second degree murder has to be intentional although not premeditated and manslaughter is neither intentional nor premeditated.

One could certainly argue that this was intentional although not premeditated and therefore might be second degree depending on Minnesota law but as I've said that's not explicitly clear. Based on video I'd say the officer was trying to keep the man subdued and did so in a heavy handed (and incompetent) way. Voluntary manslaughter or 2nd degree but certainly not 1st degree.

I guess in previous posts I was thinking more from the Irish perspective where we essentially only have two categories: murder and manslaughter.

I'd tend to agree here. Only the officer himself can really know what he intended. I reckon he misjudged it. Did not think the man's life was in grave danger...

But, still a man lost his life. The officer should have been less forceful here it seems. He could have held the man's head with his hands even. Minimal force required. Ultimately no real force on the man's head was needed, as there were 2-3 offices restraining him from head to toe.

James Brown

Sean.3516 wrote: »

It isn't out of date.

There've always been a few hundred whackos who get a parade permit every so often and march around. They are not in any way relevant in US society or politics. It was only after Trump got elected that people conveniently started paying attention to them. But they are not on the rise. In 2018 in Charlottesville (one year after the famous white supremacist rally that resulted in someone being killed) only a couple dozen fascists showed up. Down from hundreds the year before. There were more media than marchers there.

Nut picking is a very easy game to play in a country of 350 million people.

So you're saying racism hasn't been growing it's static and people are only making an issue of it because they don't like Trump?
Even if true, that wouldn't excuse or dismiss acts of racism would it?

Very easy to nut pick when the President is one. Visiting the Ford plant and talking about how Henry Ford, the Nazi sympathiser had good bloodlines.

The association between Trump and hate crimes is not limited to the election itself. Another study, based on data collected by the Anti-Defamation League, shows that counties that hosted a Trump campaign rally in 2016 saw hate crime rates more than double compared to similar counties that did not host a rally.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2019/08/14/trump-and-racism-what-do-the-data-say/

US racism on the rise, UN experts warn in wake of Charlottesville violence
https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=21975

People see Trump and feel it's okay to act out on feelings they may have previously kept at bay due to societal constraints. Then of course, you've the highest office in the land race baiting the general public.

splinter65

KiKi III wrote: »

The point is neither has asking nicely. Or protesting peacefully.

It might not be a solution, but it’s natural that watching one of your community killed senselessly by the people who are supposed to protect you would provoke a backlash.

Why are you criticising them for looting more than you’re criticising the police force who killed a man for no reason?

Nobody in their right mind would approve of the circumstances in which this poor guy died. It’s inexcusable. And that goes without saying. If there is a stereotyping of black urban youth it is reinforced by these scenes overnight.
It does nothing but damage any case there is for a charge of institutionalized racism against the US police.
And no it’s not “natural”. If your “natural” instinct in these situations is to go out and burn down someone else’s property then I hope you don’t live near me.

ELM327

splinter65 wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind would approve of the circumstances in which this poor guy died. It’s inexcusable. And that goes without saying. If there is a stereotyping of black urban youth it is reinforced by these scenes overnight.
It does nothing but damage any case there is for a charge of institutionalized racism against the US police.
And no it’s not “natural”. If your “natural” instinct in these situations is to go out and burn down someone else’s property then I hope you don’t live near me.

Some scum have lived up to their name last night
I wouldnt want to live near them.


It doesn't change what the cop did as it's still wrong, but if your instinct is to loot and riot then you are a low life piece of sh1t, black/white/other.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

I'd tend to agree here. Only the officer himself can really know what he intended. I reckon he misjudged it. Did not think the man's life was in grave danger...

But, still a man lost his life. The officer should have been less forceful here it seems. He could have held the man's head with his hands even. Minimal force required. Ultimately no real force on the man's head was needed, as there were 2-3 offices restraining him from head to toe.

Only the officer knows what he intended?? Give me a f*cking break. My 6 year old nephew knows cutting off someone's air supply leads to death. This man knew exactly what he was doing and if he was thick enough not to know that air is fundamental to life, the bystanders told him he was killing the man and George pleaded for his life. So yeah he intended to kill him and anyone with half a brain can see exactly that.

walshb

splinter65 wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind would approve of the circumstances in which this poor guy died. It’s inexcusable. And that goes without saying. If there is a stereotyping of black urban youth it is reinforced by these scenes overnight.
It does nothing but damage any case there is for a charge of institutionalized racism against the US police.
And no it’s not “natural”. If your “natural” instinct in these situations is to go out and burn down someone else’s property then I hope you don’t live near me.

Spot on

Only feral animal type people react and behave like this...

Black, white, latino, oriental....whatever......any people behaving like this.

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

Only the officer knows what he intended?? Give me a f*cking break. My 6 year old nephew knows cutting off someone's air supply leads to death. This man knew exactly what he was doing and if he was thick enough not to know that air is fundamental to life, the bystanders told him he was killing the man and George pleaded for his life. So yeah he intended to kill him and anyone with half a brain can see exactly that.

Come on......he may not have deliberately ended the man's life.....

I understand his actions caused this, and reckless actions can result in death, but not all are deliberate intention to end life...

James Brown

ELM327 wrote: »

Some scum have lived up to their name last night
I wouldnt want to live near them.


It doesn't change what the cop did as it's still wrong, but if your instinct is to loot and riot then you are a low life piece of sh1t, black/white/other.

walshb wrote: »

Spot on

Only feral animal type people react and behave like this...

Black, white, latino, oriental....whatever......any people behaving like this.

Why feel the need to make comparisons, which is essentially what is happening here?
The cop killed an unarmed man in restraints.
Doesn't a police officer, hired to serve and protect the public, killing a man warrant more discussion than talking about people looting? They are not the same issue at all. They do not cancel each other out.

pjohnson

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Only the officer knows what he intended?? Give me a f*cking break. My 6 year old nephew knows cutting off someone's air supply leads to death. This man knew exactly what he was doing and if he was thick enough not to know that air is fundamental to life, the bystanders told him he was killing the man and George pleaded for his life. So yeah he intended to kill him and anyone with half a brain can see exactly that.

Walshb seems to saying the officer is basically as thick as cement as an excuse.


If the officer didn't know what he was doing would be fatal he is a bloody danger to society regardless of job description.

ELM327

Bowie wrote: »

Why feel the need to make comparisons, which is essentially what is happening here?
The cop killed an unarmed man in restraints.
Doesn't a police officer, hired to serve and protect the public, killing a man warrant more discussion than talking about people looting? They are not the same issue at all. They do not cancel each other out.

No
Both are crimes and unwarranted, both should be abhorred by real people.

MeMen2_MoRi_

splinter65 wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind would approve of the circumstances in which this poor guy died. It’s inexcusable. And that goes without saying. If there is a stereotyping of black urban youth it is reinforced by these scenes overnight.
It does nothing but damage any case there is for a charge of institutionalized racism against the US police.
And no it’s not “natural”. If your “natural” instinct in these situations is to go out and burn down someone else’s property then I hope you don’t live near me.

This thread is specifically about a cop killing George Floyd, not the rioting after it. Start a new thread for the rioting.

walshb

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

This thread is specifically about a cop killing George Floyd, not the rioting after it. Start a new thread for the rioting.

The rioting and looting and lawlessness is related to the killing

This is how society there are responding to the death of George Floyd.

And you can be sure that a sh1t load couldn't give a toss about George Floyd; it's just an excuse to behave like feral animals.

Mitch Connor

ELM327 wrote: »

Some scum have lived up to their name last night
I wouldnt want to live near them.


It doesn't change what the cop did as it's still wrong, but if your instinct is to loot and riot then you are a low life piece of sh1t, black/white/other.

If society doesn't give a sh1t about you, as evidenced time and time again, then there will be a backlash.

If you are white you storm government buildings armed to the teeth, if you are black you can't even be *accused* of a $20 forgery.

How can people not expect anger and resentment to build when racism is so clear, and so clearly protected.

walshb

pjohnson wrote: »

Walshb seems to saying the officer is basically as thick as cement as an excuse.


If the officer didn't know what he was doing would be fatal he is a bloody danger to society regardless of job description.

Agreed.....

It could well be that he is as thick as cement, and for that, he needs to be removed from the force...

I think it's more a chance than him intentionally and deliberately meaning and wanting to end George Floyd's life...

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Come on......he may not have deliberately ended the man's life.....

I understand his actions caused this, and reckless actions can result in death, but not all are deliberate intention to end life...

Bullsh!t.

Having a seizure and causing an accident is not deliberately ending someone's life.

Kneeling on someone's neck, cutting off their air supply, being told by that person that they can't breathe, hearing them gasp for air, being told by others that you're killing them, watching the life drain from them and STILL keeping their air supply cut off... It doesn't get more deliberate than that.

I have no clue on earth why anyone would be trying desperately to find every and any way to defend this barbaric act. Maybe you have a hard on for men in uniform. Maybe you have a problem with black people. Maybe you just like victim blaming. I don't know. But you're absolutely full of it. Oh and your 'question' earlier that you just 'forgot to put a question mark on' , wasn't even framed like a question. More bullsh!t.

This was murder.

^That's a statement by the way. Not a question.

SusieBlue

walshb wrote: »

Come on......he may not have deliberately ended the man's life.....

I understand his actions caused this, and reckless actions can result in death, but not all are deliberate intention to end life...

Why did he sway back and forth, increasing and decreasing the pressure on the mans neck if it wasn’t intentional?
He would have been able to feel from the pressure underneath his knee that when he pushed his weight forward, George couldn’t breathe. George’s body clearly tenses up every time he does this.
He would then sway back, decreasing the pressure again, George would go to take a breath of relief only for the office to push his weight forward again.

You can see it clear as day in the video and I don’t believe for a second that he couldn’t feel that under his knee.
He knew he was obstructing his windpipe, he gave him a few seconds of relief before obstructing it again. He suffocated him to death.
What a horrible, cruel death to inflict on a person. There is no excuse for it. He had to have felt it and known what he was doing.

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

Bullsh!t.

Having a seizure and causing an accident is not deliberately ending someone's life.

Kneeling on someone's neck, cutting off their air supply, being told by that person that they can't breathe, hearing them gasp for air, being told by others that you're killing them, watching the life drain from them and STILL keeping their air supply cut off... It doesn't get more deliberate than that.

I have no clue on earth why anyone would be trying desperately to find every and any way to defend this barbaric act. Maybe you have a hard on for men in uniform. Maybe you have a problem with black people. Maybe you just like victim blaming. I don't know. But you're absolutely full of it. Oh and your 'question' earlier that you just 'forgot to put a question mark on' , wasn't even framed like a question. More bullsh!t.

This was murder.

^That's a statement by the way. Not a question.

Cool your jets, lad. Not sure why you need to get so hostile in your reply.

I just don't think it's as clear-cut as you as to what exactly the kneeling officer intended....

Not sure why you have gone off on a uniform hard on rant, having a problem black people, victim blaming tirade.....

walshb

SusieBlue wrote: »

Why did he sway back and forth, increasing and decreasing the pressure on the mans neck if it wasn’t intentional?
He would have been able to feel from the pressure underneath his knee that when he pushed his weight forward, George couldn’t breathe. George’s body clearly tenses up every time he does this.
He would then sway back, decreasing the pressure again, George would go to take a breath of relief only for the office to push his weight forward again.

You can see it clear as day in the video and I don’t believe for a second that he couldn’t feel that under his knee.
He knew he was obstructing his windpipe, he gave him a few seconds of relief before obstructing it again. He suffocated him to death.
What a horrible, cruel death to inflict on a person. There is no excuse for it. He had to have felt it and known what he was doing.

They are questions you need to ask him.

Nobody can know his intention but him.

Manic Moran

Bowie wrote: »

Visiting the Ford plant and talking about how Henry Ford, the Nazi sympathiser had good bloodlines.

This comes up from time to time and is worth a comment. I don't know about bloodlines, but though Ford very certainly had fans in the Nazi Party (And the Communist Party, and basically anywhere else trying to industrialise in the 1930s) and he was somewhat of an anti-semite, there is little to no evidence to suggest that the feelings were reciprocated in the other direction.

16-page essay on the matter here, https://www.academia.edu/207381/Rethinking_the_Ford-Nazi_Connection , if you want a one-page answer, try this over at the askhistorians subreddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/a27789/was_henry_ford_trully_a_nazi/

abff

I was absolutely sickened when I saw the video. I’m also sickened by some of the comments on here.

Gatling

walshb wrote: »

Nobody can know his intention but him.

The video shows his intention clearly killing a man for no reason whatsoever ,he wasn't resisting ,he was complying with officers ,he was no threat to the 4 + armed police officers but yet one took his life for nothing other than being under arrest and being black

splinter65

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

This thread is specifically about a cop killing George Floyd, not the rioting after it. Start a new thread for the rioting.

Back seat modding is against the charter. If you don’t like my post, report it.
In the meantime here’s a picture.

dyou know whats good and healthy?

maintaining a decent level of remove from american societal issues and politics.

ive been learning this more and more and i can only recommend it to all.

we've plenty going on here that could use people's attention- not that chatting on the internet is action, but attention at least suggests the possibility of thought i suppose- but there's massive interest, focus, contested discussion on what is happening in a town as far removed from anyone on boards as fallujah or moscow.

im not knocking anyone, but im inviting anyone who wished to do so to take a minute to ask themselves why the hell they would be bothered.

walshb

walshb wrote: »

Cool your jets, lad. Not sure why you need to get so hostile in your reply.

I just don't think it's as clear-cut as you as to what exactly the kneeling officer intended....

Not sure why you have gone off on a uniform hard on rant, having a problem black people, victim blaming tirade.....

I'm not a lad and I'm trying to understand why you keep trying to justify what happened. You're desperate to take the burden of blame from the officer. It's absolutely bizzare. He killed a man, unnecessarily and there is no justifying that. He knelt on his neck, cutting off the air supply. No air for a prolonged period = death. It's that simple. It's not a grey area where you could be unsure of the outcome. No air...death.

MeMen2_MoRi_

splinter65 wrote: »

Back seat modding is against the charter. If you don’t like my post, report it.
In the meantime here’s a picture.

Exactly my reason for mentioning a new thread for the riot, it's been used as a deflection tactic.

"Yeah okay we know he killed him but don't know his intentions" but but but look here look at all these people rioting, they're scum ruining their area!!

walshb

walshb wrote: »

They are questions you need to ask him.

Nobody can know his intention but him.

His intention is clear for all to see.

But what are you suggesting.. he should be asked what he meant to happen?

..Well I just intended to keep him on the ground so I could keep all the lovely people safe. I was intending to let him up real soon and then I intended to give him a pat on the back and pop him gently into the car.

He's hardly gonna say he intended to kill him is he. 'you'd need to ask him!' Christ on a bike.