George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

pjohnson

walshb wrote: »

Agreed.....

It could well be that he is as thick as cement, and for that, he needs to be removed from the force...

I think it's more a chance than him intentionally and deliberately meaning and wanting to end George Floyd's life...

Christ if thats actually the line you are sticking to then I guess I know why so so many Americans feel the need to carry their own weapons if the police are exclusively the stupidest people in the country.

Gatling

splinter65 wrote: »

In the meantime here’s a picture.

Wonder why we aren't seeing the white people who are also looting the same stores

Sean.3516

Bowie wrote: »

So you're saying racism hasn't been growing it's static and people are only making an issue of it because they don't like Trump?
Even if true, that wouldn't excuse or dismiss acts of racism would it?

Yes that is what I'm saying. And yes it doesn't dismiss individual acts of racism. When individual acts of racism occur everybody should point and say "That's racist. That's wrong", prosecute the crime (assuming one took place) and then get on with our lives. This is what everybody did when the woman in Central Park threatened to call the cops on "an African American man". This is what happened in the Walter Scott case in South Carolina. A clear case of racism. That case hardly ever gets talked about anymore because at the time, everybody agreed that the cop was a racist murderer and should go to jail.

It's only in the controversial cases such as Treyvon Martin where there actually isn't clear racist motives where people say "Well the reason you don't believe the killing was racist was because you don't take racism seriously."

Actually I do take racism quite seriously which is why I refuse to impute racism without proper evidence. You can't judge whether an entire country is racist on the basis of these individual cases. You have to look at the attitudes of the vast majority of people. As was stated in the Washington Post article I posted, less than 4% of Americans would not want to live in an area inhabited by other races. And I'd be very interested to know the demographics of that 4%.

Bowie wrote: »

Very easy to nut pick when the President is one. Visiting the Ford plant and talking about how Henry Ford, the Nazi sympathiser had good bloodlines.

I can't believe you brought that up. Do you seriously think Trump was praising Ford because he loved Ford's anti-semitism? The man with a Jewish daughter, a Jewish son in law. The president who wore a yarmulke when he visited the Temple Mount in Israel?

He meant that Henry Ford was a great American industrialist who through his bloodline spawned a progeny of great American industrialists. I doubt Trump who has shown himself to be historically illiterate in the past even knew about Ford's anti-semitism.

Bowie wrote: »

People see Trump and feel it's okay to act out on feelings they may have previously kept at bay due to societal constraints. Then of course, you've the highest office in the land race baiting the general public.

I think the infinitesimally small minority racists in the country were inspired by Trump's election to commit substantially more hate crimes than they otherwise would have. That does not mean that America is more racist because of Trump. Again I'd refer you to the large scale statistics on the actual attitudes of the average american to people from other races.

walshb

pjohnson wrote: »

Christ if thats actually the line you are sticking to then I guess I know why so so many Americans feel the need to carry their own weapons if the police are exclusively the stupidest people in the country.

Well, considering who they have as their leader, I don't think my line is all that mad

Two options: 1: He deliberately decided to end a human's life there and then.


2: He is just an aggressive man who is too heavy handed, and did not realize that George would die...thick as cement and very reckless

I don't think it odd to think option 2...

Podge_irl

Sean.3516 wrote: »

The distinction between second degree murder and voluntary manslaughter is messy across all the different US states.

I don't know what the law is in Minnesota where this took place. I know that in Arizona for example second degree murder has to be intentional although not premeditated and manslaughter is neither intentional nor premeditated.

One could certainly argue that this was intentional although not premeditated and therefore might be second degree depending on Minnesota law but as I've said that's not explicitly clear. Based on video I'd say the officer was trying to keep the man subdued and did so in a heavy handed (and incompetent) way. Voluntary manslaughter or 2nd degree but certainly not 1st degree.

I guess in previous posts I was thinking more from the Irish perspective where we essentially only have two categories: murder and manslaughter.

Yeah, for some reason I was mixing up that it was in NY (getting mixed up with the Garner case I imagine).

Nonetheless, it is a pretty weird point to nitpick on all the same. This is not a court of law, and claiming the cop murdered the guy seems, colloquially speaking, pretty accurate. What ends up happening in court is a different matter but I would certainly not be surprised by a murder charge. All of his actions are intentional and he would have a difficult time arguing that he should not have known that death was a serious possibility if not a bloody certainty of his actions.

walshb

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not a lad and I'm trying to understand why you keep trying to justify what happened. You're desperate to take the burden of blame from the officer. It's absolutely bizzare. He killed a man, unnecessarily and there is no justifying that. He knelt on his neck, cutting off the air supply. No air for a prolonged period = death. It's that simple. It's not a grey area where you could be unsure of the outcome. No air...death.

No, the officer is to blame.

He was reckless. The differing view we have is the intention....

I think he may have not deliberately intended to end the man's life...

Hence why I asked you to cool your jets.

osarusan

Minnesota has a 3rd degree murder charge. Otfen involving depraved heart (depraved indifference) crimes. Perhaps that's the most fitting:

Third-Degree Murder

Third-degree murder falls between manslaughter and third-degree murder charges. This murder is not based on having the intent to kill. Third-degree murder is often charged as a depraved heart or mind crime. This charge can arise when a person fires a gun in a crowd without intending to kill anyone, for example. Murder is charged when a person is killed and the defendant has an indifference to the sanctity of human life. This charge may also result if a person sells bad drugs. The maximum penalty for murder is up to 25 years in prison. If the death resulted because of a Schedule I or II drug sale, a fine of up to $40,000 may result.

nthclare

This is a bit off topic but I remember around ten years ago I was out bass fishing off Doughmore Beach in Doonbeg at night with a detective from Limerick, we stopped off in Ennis for a takeaway at around 2:30 am

We were basically minding our own business not a car in sight so we had to step off the kirb and avoid a load of gannets and jocks on the street pissed.

So we walked on the road, for around 8 steps and a cocky ****er pushed me onto the street pathway and told me I was obstructing traffic and a danger to myself and others.

Well my friend had the right answer,he read the rookie his rights and told him that there wasn't any traffic on the road and his pushing me could be considered an assault..

All apologies after that..

MeMen2_MoRi_

osarusan wrote: »

Minnesota has a 3rd degree murder charge. Otfen involving depraved heart (depraved indifference) crimes. Perhaps that's the most fitting:

I'd class it as murder, the reason being there isn't an idiot in the police force that doesn't know what happens when breathing circulation is cut off.

This guy, even when it was clear to everyone else that George was gone he held the knee in place, not for a short time, over a minute even when the paramedic came to check George's pulse, he held the knee in place (dead already for over a minute) until the stretcher was placed behind him.

I wouldn't see it as justice if it was manslaughter/3rd degree murder that he gets charged with I think it needs to be a bit higher then these.

WhiteMemento9

Whole department shows up in support!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgJ0b-8L_9E

Gatling

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Whole department shows up in support!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgJ0b-8L_9E

The blue wall of silence and 9mm pistols

James Brown

walshb wrote: »

The rioting and looting and lawlessness is related to the killing

This is how society there are responding to the death of George Floyd.

And you can be sure that a sh1t load couldn't give a toss about George Floyd; it's just an excuse to behave like feral animals.

ELM327 wrote: »

No
Both are crimes and unwarranted, both should be abhorred by real people.

You are both in danger of using one to minimalise the other. Just an FYI like.

gimli2112

Third-degree murder falls between manslaughter and third-degree murder charges. This murder is not based on having the intent to kill. Third-degree murder is often charged as a depraved heart or mind crime. This charge can arise when a person fires a gun in a crowd without intending to kill anyone, for example. Murder is charged when a person is killed and the defendant has an indifference to the sanctity of human life. This charge may also result if a person sells bad drugs. The maximum penalty for murder is up to 25 years in prison. If the death resulted because of a Schedule I or II drug sale, a fine of up to $40,000 may result.

This must be the most american law ever. What would you think would happen if you shoot into a crowd?

KiKi III

walshb wrote: »

No, the officer is to blame.

He was reckless. The differing view we have is the intention....

I think he may have not deliberately intended to end the man's life...

Hence why I asked you to cool your jets.

Action is more important than intention. He knelt on the man’s windpipe for several minutes in the full knowledge that this might kill him.

The man said “I can’t breathe”

Onlookers said “He can’t breathe”

So it doesn’t really matter what the intention was. He knowingly took an action that was likely to lead to the Floyd’s death.

Conall Cernach

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Exactly my reason for mentioning a new thread for the riot, it's been used as a deflection tactic.

"Yeah okay we know he killed him but don't know his intentions" but but but look here look at all these people rioting, they're scum ruining their area!!

I think we all know that there is an element of society that values insured consumer products over the life of human beings.

KiKi III

walshb wrote: »

The rioting and looting and lawlessness is related to the killing

This is how society there are responding to the death of George Floyd.

And you can be sure that a sh1t load couldn't give a toss about George Floyd; it's just an excuse to behave like feral animals.

What a surprise, here you are demonising people for looting when you’ve been defending the killer all day.

Dehumanising people by calling them “feral animals” for the way they have been responding to the senseless killing of a member of their community.

Strange that you are more critical of the looting than the killing which you have downplayed as “reckless”.

Some people would say you’re just a massive racist, determined to see the best in the white people involved and the worst in the black people.

Not me, obviously, but some people would definitely see it that way.

MeMen2_MoRi_

KiKi III wrote: »

What a surprise, here you are demonising people for looting when you’ve been defending the killer all day.

Dehumanising people by calling them “feral animals” for the way they have been responding to the senseless killing of a member of their community.

Strange that you are more critical of the looting than the killing which you have downplayed as “reckless”.

Some people would say you’re just a massive racist, determined to see the best in the white people involved and the worst in the black people.

Not me, obviously, but some people would definitely see it that way.

Constantly spoke out both sides of his mouth, commenting on a subject without viewing all available evidence. This wasn't one of those 30 sec clips or 1/2minute clips.. this case was a 7+ minute clip of the death of a man, he was pleading for his life along with the onlookers pleading to let George live. Did the cop give a fcuk??? The answer is a resounding hell no.

dresden8

Mad_maxx wrote: »

anyone see that video doing the rounds of the female in central park NYC who was asked to put her dog back on its lead by a man , the rules state dogs must be on a lead in this part of central park

anyway she takes offense and then proceeds to phone the police and tell them " an african american man has threatened me and i think hes going to kill me "

worse still she even told the guy she was going to tell the cops that very thing , the guy remained calm and polite to an incredible degree

what a vile witch ?

Basically she wanted the cops to show up and shoot him.

Suicide/murder by cop things in America.

ELM327

Bowie wrote: »

You are both in danger of using one to minimalise the other. Just an FYI like.

No, just like a bunch of depraved scumbags looting and wrecking the town is not the memory of the man that hisfamily would want to have.

flazio

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Whole department shows up in support!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgJ0b-8L_9E

I'm not sure I'd call it "support" more than preventing people taking the law into their own hands.

I hope justice is served, but I have little faith in an avoidance of this happening again.
Anyone remember the name Eric Garner? Back in July last year Americans were calling out for his name to be remembered. He was strangled while being restrained by the NYPD, who would probably have a reputation for being a bit more fair then other police departments. The United States had eight years under a Black president and racial attacks are as strong as they ever were.

Odhinn

Mad_maxx wrote: »

anyone see that video doing the rounds of the female in central park NYC who was asked to put her dog back on its lead by a man , the rules state dogs must be on a lead in this part of central park

anyway she takes offense and then proceeds to phone the police and tell them " an african american man has threatened me and i think hes going to kill me "

worse still she even told the guy she was going to tell the cops that very thing , the guy remained calm and polite to an incredible degree

what a vile witch ?

...and somebody who should never own an animal, given the way she was dragging the dog by the neck.

ohnonotgmail

Odhinn wrote: »

...and somebody who should never own an animal, given the way she was dragging the dog by the neck.

the dog was taken back by the pound she adopted it from.

dresden8

walshb wrote: »

The level of force/restraint can depend on the situation and the individual that the police are dealing with

Had this man not resisted arrest at all and cooperated, then it is very likely he would not have been restrained like this....

It is very sad that he died, of course, but the police officers involved may have felt that the force needed was justified, given the circumstances...

I doubt that they wanted to kill him....

How can an unconscious/dead man resist arrest?

Genuinely interested.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

The only feral animal was the one wearing a uniform. Poor man, begging for breath. Bystanders threatened with pepper spray trying to stop the murder. Honestly only there’s videos I wouldn’t have believed it.

RollieFingers

Hate to be that cop if he gets locked up like he should be.

Cheerful Spring2

He killed that black man there no doubt. And should be arrested and given years of jail time.

There no excuses the guy on the ground said he could not breath and people said get off his neck.And looked like to me he pressed harder.

The police officers need to be respected not hated.

Itssoeasy

That second video from a security camera shows to me at least that there was no resisting arrest from George floyd. He sat down at one point while three officers checked some details. He was then helped to stand up by one officer(who doesnt seem worried for his safety) and then is walked across the street and it looks like he stumbles and then falls down where the other video takes over. I mean on those two videos alone there is no resistance. So I'm not saying that police shouldn't protest themselves but from the two videos I can't see any reason for them to protect themselves in the manner they did.

Stateofyou

They manage to arrest violent white people all the time without a scratch on them. The argument for him resisting arrest (which he didn't) is a stupid one and holds no water.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

He killed that black man there no doubt. And should be arrested and given years of jail time.

There no excuses the guy on the ground said he could not breath and people said get off his neck.And looked like to me he pressed harder.

The police officers need to be respected not hated.

This is a good point, how is the community suppose to have respect for the police force that polices them when POS like this is in their midst.

My thinking is cops have each others back to the point of rot.. the Asian fella stood by with the hard man attitude while his colleague killed the guy, no attempt to have a word, it was a case of I have to back my guy in uniform and badge I can't step from that.

pjohnson

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

He killed that black man there no doubt. And should be arrested and given years of jail time.

There no excuses the guy on the ground said he could not breath and people said get off his neck.And looked like to me he pressed harder.

The police officers need to be respected not hated.

Respect is earned. A pretty outfit doenst mean scum should be respected.