George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

Overheal

Blueshoe wrote: »

Peaceful protest is a pillar of democracy.

Rioting, vandalism, looting, throwing stones at police isnt

“Peaceful protest” is not a pillar of Democracy.

“ According to American political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: a political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; the active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; protection of the human rights of all citizens; a rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.”

El_Duderino 09

Sniper69 wrote: »

No. An uprising is a massive drain on the government, and when it snowballs will inevitably lead to legislative change. Thats why this works.

Attacking tax bases is the oldest american protest

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Tea_Party

Yeah absolutely. Violence is often a route to change. And when peoep are denied reasonable change (like an end to the kind or racism that lead to this case) then people often do turn violent to achieve the change they want.

People who say that violence is never the answer are really not in agreement with the history books.

BorneTobyWilde

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump is quiet on the matter.

But he is the guy who told the police '' don't be so nice, I hate that. When you cuff em and when your putting them in the car, DON'T put your hand on their head when putting them in the car, no need to protect their head''

He made a statement condemning it. But don't let that get in your way

DrPhilG

Disgusting affair and I'm sure that the cop in question will be prosecuted and convicted.

However there are a few things that bother me about this.

1 - everyone is lashing around a petition, screaming blue murder that Derek Chauvin has not been sent to the chair.

Get a grip on reality.

To send Chauvin to jail, he has to be convicted of a crime. To convict him of a crime he has to face trial. To face trial he has to be charged. To charge him there has to be a crime to charge him with.

For there to be a crime, there needs to be a coroner's report confirming cause of death, (not sure if this is back yet) and there needs to be a police investigation/report to confirm that the level of force used was excessive and/or inappropriate.

These are processes that cannot simply be tossed out because it is a high profile and sensitive case. I don't doubt that all these things will happen, but they won't happen any faster because people sign a petition or riot in the streets.


2 - as yet I have not seen any evidence whatsoever that this was racially motivated. Just because a white man kills a black man, it doesn't necessarily mean that race was a motivator.

It may have been, but assuming that it is without any evidence is wreckless and only fans the flames of civil unrest.

3 years ago in the same city, an innocent unarmed white woman was shot by a black cop. The cop was charged and convicted, but nobody claimed that he shot her BECAUSE she was white.

I have been to America many times. I have friends of various races in various states and they have all told me that whilst racism still exists, it is not the huge societal problem that the media like to portray it as.

This is undeniably a case of police brutality but until there is some evidence of it being racially motivated, it should not be branded as such.

Enter name here

So much bull****, if it was a white guy nothing would have happened except blacks cheering saying well deserved. A black guy dies and gives every black person in USA the right to do what they do best act likes arseholes and criminals. Yes the copper was in the wrong but no excuses for what the black community always do. Was glad today to see shop keepers had shot dead looters.

iguana

SusieBlue wrote: »

It’s alleged he was trying to pay for goods in a shop with a fake cheque/counterfeit note.
It was just suspected and not proved or anything.

I've worked in retail and on a few occasions someone handed me a fake note. The policy anywhere I worked was to act as if you presume the customer was unaware and is an unfortunate victim of having a fake note. Usually you'd just apologise but refuse to accept it and suggest they can either try and return it to where they got it or go to their bank. If the serial number was one that Gardai were looking for, you'd have to keep the note and get the customer details but I never had to deal with that. Calling the guards to arrest the customer was never something that would have occurred. The thought of someone losing their life for possibly being shafted when they received a fake note somewhere and either not noticing and trying to use it or chancing their arm in the hope of getting rid of it without losing out, is insane.

Overheal

nullzero wrote: »

Did I mention profits?

Destroying businesses that serve your own community (both as a providers of services and employment to local people) as a means of protest is counter productive. Why is that? Well driving business out of your community makes the community a worse place to live, makes the lives of those living there worse.

You know I have lived all over. Even in some Irish ****holes. And American ones.

You know what really can be a driving factor in whether a place is livable? Whether or not you can trust the police to protect and serve the community. Nobody will put down root where the local police are corrupt bastards who would just as soon murder you for passing on a counterfeit $20 bill you might have been given in another transaction without realizing. That’s a lot more critical to me than whether or not main street is a little thin on enterprise.

El_Duderino 09

Enter name here wrote: »

So much bull****, if it was a white guy nothing would have happened except blacks cheering saying well deserved. A black guy dies and gives every black person in USA the right to do what they do best act likes arseholes and criminals. Yes the copper was in the wrong but no excuses for what the black community always do. Was glad today to see shop keepers had shot dead looters.

That's a very, very sad post.

nullzero

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Of course. But if that doesn't work then people take matters further. Just look at our own history. 1916 and the war of independence are the kind of thing that happen when the people are ignored and not represented. And the troubles came from a civil rights movement because the people were being treated unfairly and not listened to when they complained.

It's easy to say they should lodge their complaints through the proper complaints procedure - of course they should. But in reality a consequence of not having a reasonable and peaceful complaint address, is that people stop asking nicely and become more and more forceful.

People burning their own city is a sign of people in huge distress.

The 1916 rising was a guerilla military operation. The people of Dublin didn't go on the rampage looting shops, nor did the people involved in the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland.

The closest things we have to compare to wild destruction, looting and loutish behaviour would be the Love Ulster riots and the Jobstown Water protest.

There is cause for legitimate protest in light of George Floyd's death, looting and burning your own community isn't legitimate. Do you really suppose people were so traumatised by George Floyd's death that they instinctively reacted by breaking into Target to steal a new TV and whatever else that wasn't nailed down?

nullzero

nullzero wrote: »

The 1916 rising was a guerilla military operation. The people of Dublin didn't go on the rampage looting shops, nor did the people involved in the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland.

The closest things we have to compare to wild destruction, looting and loutish behaviour would be the Love Ulster riots and the Jobstown Water protest.

There is cause for legitimate protest in light of George Floyd's death, looting and burning your own community isn't legitimate. Do you really suppose people were so traumatised by George Floyd's death that they instinctively reacted by breaking into Target to steal a new TV and whatever else that wasn't nailed down?

Exactly.

Sniper69

nullzero wrote: »

The 1916 rising was a guerilla military operation. The people of Dublin didn't go on the rampage looting shops, nor did the people involved in the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland.

The closest things we have to compare to wild destruction, looting and loutish behaviour would be the Love Ulster riots and the Jobstown Water protest.

There is cause for legitimate protest in light of George Floyd's death, looting and burning your own community isn't legitimate. Do you really suppose people were so traumatised by George Floyd's death that they instinctively reacted by breaking into Target to steal a new TV and whatever else that wasn't nailed down?

Its not about the f*cking TV. This is a cretinous myopic, argument.

Its about shutting down an entire city and making if a drain on government resources and manpower. This is what will force them to change.

Imagine yeah, in 1773 youd be saying why theyre looting the fecking tea - the hell is that gonna achieve?

Enter name here

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's a very, very sad post.

But a very accurate one at that, sick to death of all the racist card **** being played. It was a terrible wrong no doubt but was no way racially motivated and doesn't give blacks the right to loot and pillage.

nullzero

iguana wrote: »

I've worked in retail and on a few occasions someone handed me a fake note. The policy anywhere I worked was to act as if you presume the customer was unaware and is an unfortunate victim of having a fake note. Usually you'd just apologise but refuse to accept it and suggest they can either try and return it to where they got it or go to their bank. If the serial number was one that Gardai were looking for, you'd have to keep the note and get the customer details but I never had to deal with that. Calling the guards to arrest the customer was never something that would have occurred. The thought of someone losing their life for possibly being shafted when they received a fake note somewhere and either not noticing and trying to use it or chancing their arm in the hope of getting rid of it without losing out, is insane.

I know of one particular retail premises close to a large settlement of a certain ethnic group which I will not name that have had so many counterfeit notes pass through their business that they have notices up stating that all staff need to be aware of the potential for their use and that anyone presenting them will be subject to prosecution.

Sniper69

Enter name here wrote: »

But a very accurate one at that, sick to death of all the racist card **** being played. It was a terrible wrong no doubt but was no way racially motivated and doesn't give blacks the right to loot and pillage.

Nah youre the only one here pushing the race angle.

This was police brutality, end of. The protest is for police brutality. Id join the protest if I was there. Not for race but because police brutality cant be allowed to continue

Blueshoe

Sniper69 wrote: »

America was literally built by rioting, looting and anti-policing riffraffs. Ever heard of the boston tea party?

The same people were afraid that one day america will be full of tyrants. The image of a police officer kneeling on your neck until you die - George Washington would declare another civil war were he alive

Right on

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

You know I have lived all over. Even in some Irish ****holes. And American ones.

You know what really can be a driving factor in whether a place is livable? Whether or not you can trust the police to protect and serve the community. Nobody will put down root where the local police are corrupt bastards who would just as soon murder you for passing on a counterfeit $20 bill you might have been given in another transaction without realizing. That’s a lot more critical to me than whether or not main street is a little thin on enterprise.

Are you judging all the police on the actions of a few? Do you believe that because a not insignificant amount of the police force have shown themselves to behave inappropriately they should be watched and perhaps not trusted? Do you believe that because some of them acted horrendously, people are justified to smash up their offices?

Enter name here

Sniper69 wrote: »

Nah youre the only one here pushing the race angle.

This was police brutality, end of. The protest is for police brutality. Id join the protest if I was there. Not for race but because police brutality cant be allowed to continue

LOL and if you are white you would be killed for just being on the streets. Are you that ****ing naive?

nullzero

Overheal wrote: »

You know I have lived all over. Even in some Irish ****holes. And American ones.

You know what really can be a driving factor in whether a place is livable? Whether or not you can trust the police to protect and serve the community. Nobody will put down root where the local police are corrupt bastards who would just as soon murder you for passing on a counterfeit $20 bill you might have been given in another transaction without realizing. That’s a lot more critical to me than whether or not main street is a little thin on enterprise.

Critical for you, a person commenting on the Internet living thousands of miles away.
These people have to continue living there, now without the luxury of jobs and amenities in their communities.
If you really want to reform the apparatus enforcing the law is indulging in mindless criminality really helping your position?

smurgen

Enter name here wrote: »

But a very accurate one at that, sick to death of all the racist card **** being played. It was a terrible wrong no doubt but was no way racially motivated and doesn't give blacks the right to loot and pillage.

He kneeled on that poor man's neck for 8 minutes with his hands in his pockets until the life drained from him. But it's the racist card that makes you sick?

Sniper69

Enter name here wrote: »

LOL and if you are white you would be killed for just being on the streets. Are you that ****ing naive?

Why are you calling me naive? Youre the one that keeps boiling this down as a race war. This is police vs civilians.

Enter name here

Enter name here wrote: »

LOL and if you are white you would be killed for just being on the streets. Are you that ****ing naive?

Yes. White people do get killed on the streets too.

**** sake, opt in and opt out to when colour should be recognised.

No idea or no ****s given if this was a racist incident. My main concern is that based on all evidence provided, those responsible for the death of that man should be punished.

The race element does not come into it.

Was it a racist incident? Don't care. It ended in the death of a man. Could have been racism, could have been over a row over a lawnmower. Unnecessary force used by a man with a badge. Don't care about the colour. I care about what happened.

I assume you believe in "white privilege"?

nullzero

DrPhilG wrote: »

Disgusting affair and I'm sure that the cop in question will be prosecuted and convicted.

However there are a few things that bother me about this.

1 - everyone is lashing around a petition, screaming blue murder that Derek Chauvin has not been sent to the chair.

Get a grip on reality.

To send Chauvin to jail, he has to be convicted of a crime. To convict him of a crime he has to face trial. To face trial he has to be charged. To charge him there has to be a crime to charge him with.

For there to be a crime, there needs to be a coroner's report confirming cause of death, (not sure if this is back yet) and there needs to be a police investigation/report to confirm that the level of force used was excessive and/or inappropriate.

These are processes that cannot simply be tossed out because it is a high profile and sensitive case. I don't doubt that all these things will happen, but they won't happen any faster because people sign a petition or riot in the streets.


2 - as yet I have not seen any evidence whatsoever that this was racially motivated. Just because a white man kills a black man, it doesn't necessarily mean that race was a motivator.

It may have been, but assuming that it is without any evidence is wreckless and only fans the flames of civil unrest.

3 years ago in the same city, an innocent unarmed white woman was shot by a black cop. The cop was charged and convicted, but nobody claimed that he shot her BECAUSE she was white.

I have been to America many times. I have friends of various races in various states and they have all told me that whilst racism still exists, it is not the huge societal problem that the media like to portray it as.

This is undeniably a case of police brutality but until there is some evidence of it being racially motivated, it should not be branded as such.

Excellent post.

MeMen2_MoRi_

nullzero wrote: »

Critical for you, a person commenting on the Internet living thousands of miles away.
These people have to continue living there, now without the luxury of jobs and amenities in their communities.
If you really want to reform the apparatus enforcing the law is indulging in mindless criminality really helping your position?

Like I said before, distracting from the core issue here, how can the minority be safe with the people's in uniform and badge is the core issue

El_Duderino 09

nullzero wrote: »

The 1916 rising was a guerilla military operation. The people of Dublin didn't go on the rampage looting shops, nor did the people involved in the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland.

The closest things we have to compare to wild destruction, looting and loutish behaviour would be the Love Ulster riots and the Jobstown Water protest.

There is cause for legitimate protest in light of George Floyd's death, looting and burning your own community isn't legitimate. Do you really suppose people were so traumatised by George Floyd's death that they instinctively reacted by breaking into Target to steal a new TV and whatever else that wasn't nailed down?

I see them as different expressions of the exact same cause. Both were being treated unfairly and they lash out violently.

Fwiw people said they 1916 lads were just destroying ther own city at the time. The troubles caused a fair bit of destruction to their own cities. I think you're splitting hairs as the only real difference between violently lashing out and channelling that violence into a war, is the level of organisation.

Sniper69

Sniper69 wrote: »

Why are you calling me naive? Youre the one that keeps boiling this down as a race war. This is police vs civilians.

Not even. It is some ****ty policemen against a civilian.

Enter name here

Sniper69 wrote: »

Why are you calling me naive? Youre the one that keeps boiling this down as a race war. This is police vs civilians.

Yeah of course it is. Do you live in a bubble its nothing more than an excuse for a community of blacks to go on a looting spree.

El_Duderino 09

Enter name here wrote: »

But a very accurate one at that, sick to death of all the racist card **** being played. It was a terrible wrong no doubt but was no way racially motivated and doesn't give blacks the right to loot and pillage.

Ah, I really don't think it could have happened a wealthy neighbourhood to a white guy. It really wouldn't happen.

I don't think anyone has said the blacks have a right to loot and pillage. Do you think someone said the blacks have a right to loot and pillage?

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

White people. Are you blaming white people?

I retract.

I don't see this as a race issue.

It shouldn't be trialled as a white Vs black.. it's plain Case of police brutality. My bad!

nullzero

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I see them as different expressions of the exact same cause. Both were being treated unfairly and they lash out violently.

Fwiw people said they 1916 lads were just destroying ther own city at the time. The troubles caused a fair bit of destruction to their own cities. I think you're splitting hairs as the only real difference between violently lashing out and channelling that violence into a war, is the level of organisation.

The "1916 lads" weren't looting shops. The troubles caused more than damage to cities, thousands of people died. The people marching peacefully as part of the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland weren't looting shops or rioting.

I'm not in any way splitting hairs here at all. You seem to have a loose grasp on Irish history and are using that to compare to what's going on in Minneapolis. Look at the civil rights movement in America in the 60s for reference, it gained momentum because it was peaceful.

Sniper69

Enter name here wrote: »

Yeah of course it is. Do you live in a bubble its nothing more than an excuse for a community of blacks to go on a looting spree.

Do I live in a bubble? Are you deranged? A man was murdered on the pavement.

YOU live in a bubble.
The right wing ‘racial realist’ types have never been outside their bubble of sad cretinous thinking.