George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

joe40

cdeb wrote: »

You absolutely put words in my mouth. You said "So just to be clear, are you saying [something I never came close to saying]" That is putting words in my mouth as clear as day.


I would agree with that entirely.

But none of it is racist.

I am really trying to understand your position, it does seem more nuanced than others

These are simply questions not putting words in anyone's mouth.

If the protests were about police brutality, with no racial element, would you be largely supportive of the protests?

Not the looting and violence obviously.

na1

Gael23 wrote: »

The issue here appears to be turning into one about police brutality in a broader sense more so than of blacks

There were quite a few white people killed by US police (I can give you links) in recent years, none of them causing riots.
And also quite a few black people were killed by US police, in most cases these were leading to riots.

Mehapoy

RIGOLO wrote: »

Minding your own business, is sitting at home with nachos watching The Crown.

Standing in front of a police line is only minding your own business if your a social justice warrior.

Those nationalists in the north would have been fine if they stayed at home, if the British army had nobody to shoot at there would be no bloody Sunday. What were they complaining about at that strand? if they were at home the b-specials would have nobody to batton, clearly they're fault for being 'out' when their superiors told them to stay home

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

What is the relevance of that statistic?

What is the proportion of applications for police jobs for example?

The article says the police do not think they treat black people unfairly - but maybe they don't?

It also assumes an inherent issue with white police officers policing black people - but that's to judge the ability of police by their skin colour. And that's, well, racist of you.

You quoted a stat a while back that 75% of black people stopped by the police were released - I asked you for the stat for others and you never replied.

The problem is these stand-alone figures mean nothing. They're an abuse of statistics. And to keep bringing race into things just perpetuates the truism that this is all about race, and stymies any discussion about police brutality or societal issues. It leads to this situation where they can barely be discussed or you're called a racist.

Posts like this doesn't help address matters in the slightest tbh.

cdeb wrote: »

There is no clear evidence of this.

There is evidence that black people have interaction with the police roughly in line with their crime levels - and that's not racism.

The posters who are using statistics to try make your argument are actually the ones showing this.

Also, the OP was absolutely making the point that they wouldn't dare do it to a white person (which is what I presume you meant). So my post was entirely valid in refuting theirs.

Mhm... :rolleyes:

cdeb

joe40 wrote: »

If the protests were about police brutality, with no racial element, would you be largely supportive of the protests?

Not the looting and violence obviously.

Yes, of course.

Because for me, that's the problem. You can't kneel on someone's neck and kill them when you're trying to restrain them - white or black. It's outrageous stuff. And it's obviously not an isolated incident; the videos in the past few days alone have plenty that shouldn't be happening.

There's been bits in this thread earlier on police training, which is less than half the time it is here (two years here v 9 months max in America - and they have guns to deal with in America); that has to be an issue that needs addressing. Why is there a discrepancy there?

Police accountability is another issue. The police who killed Timpa never faced charges, and the county fought to avoid the footage being released for three years. That's not acceptable.

Then why is black crime so high? That's another issue. Part of it is because of societal pressure (ironically, I think immigration plays a part in that, because the importation of cheap labour just creates a meat market at the bottom of the labour market. I say "ironically" because the people who go out of their way to promote diversity and multiculturalism probably wouldn't appreciate the suggestion that large-scale immigration is potentially a societal problem)

But also the communities themselves have to try get a handle on it themselves, and I don't see much acknowledgement of it as an issue (though I haven't been looking too closely)

But to try reduce this all to "white guy kills black guy" papers over all the above issues. It is creating an aura where some will even try to dismiss any attempt to delve into the matter as racist.

How are things going to improve in that environment?

cdeb

Overheal wrote: »

Mhm... :rolleyes:

Have you a point?

Cos I don't see one

Overheal

ELM327 wrote: »

So, we have one white man shouting? No problem. If these thugs stopped looting and just shouted, they would be treated the same as that white man was. Peaceful.

And the second photo, the man "attacked" was white. Is that still racist? I can't keep up with these lefty woke people anymore. I thought you couldnt be racist against white people.

So a 75-year old white man was looting???

hetuzozaho

Overheal wrote: »

So a 75-year old white man was looting???

He was out after curfew? Needs to be dominated!! Haha

na1

Overheal wrote: »

So a 75-year old white man was looting???

What's next?
Keep an infant in front of you, and attack the riot police with rocks?
If they respond and the infant is hurt we can condemn them for injuring a child!

walshb

hetuzozaho wrote: »

He was out after curfew? Needs to be dominated!! Haha

And overwhelmed.....

Good old Trump........

Stoking the flames....

Overheal

na1 wrote: »

Do you know the Code of conduct for the riot police?

They DO have power to push the protestors if they obstruct the movement.

Even if that’s true it is wrong and indefensible what happened there.

owlbethere

https://theliberal.ie/footage-captured-on-live-tv-shows-black-lives-matter-protester-abusing-white-puppy-later-reportedly-found-dead/

Black life's matter protester abusing white puppy later reportedly found dead


If the image posted here was the same puppy abused - was the little puppy considered racist because it was white?


The protester abused the puppy saying the words:
'no justice, no peace'

There is justice being served on the cops who killed George. They have been sacked from their positions and charged. What more do these rioters what? Execution?

Overheal

RIGOLO wrote: »

In breaking news , it has been reported that 100% of the people who stayed at home watching Netflix, bonding with their children , reading them bed time stories and cooking up their favourite dish were NOT injured during a riot in their city.

Scientists are baffled by this phenomenom , how can they not have been injured social distancing from confronting police officers in the dead of night during tense standoffs.

Some have postulated it may have somethign todo with staying at home and looking after their family , others think its just another example of white supremacy and male privelege.

We expect a thesis or 10 to come out of it... stay tuned

This is a pretty dumb comment to make given all the Karen’s who protested for haircuts in April who didn’t stay home but who also weren’t maced tasered teargassed or shot up with rubber bullets despite assaulting and spitting it out with police.

na1

Overheal wrote: »

Even if that’s true it is wrong and indefensible what happened there.

First thing that was wrong:
And elderly, who can barely walk, should not confront the riot police.
If he had some sort of dementia then the legal guardian should be prosecuted.
If he was quite sane, then it is 100% his fault.

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

Have you a point?

Cos I don't see one

“Statistics for me but not thee”

Overheal

na1 wrote: »

What's next?
Keep an infant in front of you, and attack the riot police with rocks?
If they respond and the infant is hurt we can condemn them for injuring a child!

Holy whataboutisms

What about if you show up in a tank and start throwing napalm?

Nothing to do with shoving an old man who wasn’t throwing any ****ing thing!

Mehapoy

na1 wrote: »

First thing that was wrong:
And elderly, who can barely walk, should not confront the riot police.
If he had some sort of dementia then the legal guardian should be prosecuted.
If he was quite sane, then it is 100% his fault.

It's 100% the police fault for aggressively pushing over the guy without de-escalation and using force as a first resort, you'll blame everybody but your hero's in uniform, hopefully you'll never come in harm's way, sounds like you'd submit willingly anyway!

Overheal

na1 wrote: »

First thing that was wrong:
And elderly, who can barely walk, should not confront the riot police.
If he had some sort of dementia then the legal guardian should be prosecuted.
If he was quite sane, then it is 100% his fault.

Victim blaming got it how dare an elderly American expect to be able to exercise his free speech to law enforcement without being sent to hospital what a dumb mother fukker he must be

I don’t respect your opinion at all.

Padre_Pio

owlbethere wrote: »

https://theliberal.ie/footage-captured-on-live-tv-shows-black-lives-matter-protester-abusing-white-puppy-later-reportedly-found-dead/

Black life's matter protester abusing white puppy later reportedly found dead


If the image posted here was the same puppy abused - was the little puppy considered racist because it was white?


The protester abused the puppy saying the words:
'no justice, no peace'

There is justice being served on the cops who killed George. They have been sacked from their positions and charged. What more do these rioters what? Execution?

And end to systemic racism and decades of police brutality.

na1 wrote: »

First thing that was wrong:
And elderly, who can barely walk, should not confront the riot police.
If he had some sort of dementia then the legal guardian should be prosecuted.
If he was quite sane, then it is 100% his fault.

An elderly man confronts a young, fit, trained, body armoured and armed policeman.
You think it's justified to split the old mans head open and walk over his bleeding body. What possible threat could he pose?

Would you attack an old man who shouted at you in a similar manner?
What the f*ck is going on in the world?

cdeb

Overheal wrote: »

“Statistics for me but not thee”

My point was that your statistics didn't prove anything. They were just standalone. You said 75% of black/latino people stopped for random searches weren't arrested for anything. But if 75% of white people stopped for the same thing also weren't arrested, then your stat doesn't show the racism you were trying to demonstrate. I asked you for that stat and you haven't provided it.

My statistics showed a correlation between black/latino police encounters and their crime rates. That means something (i.e. it supports the argument that those communities aren't being targetted in any unusual manner)

Overheal

“We stopped lynching you darkies what more do you want!?”

MeMen2_MoRi_

How threaten are you by this guy that he needs to be shown who's boss?

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

My point was that your statistics didn't prove anything. They were just standalone. You said 75% of black/latino people stopped for random searches weren't arrested for anything. But if 75% of white people stopped for the same thing also weren't arrested, then your stat doesn't show the racism you were trying to demonstrate. I asked you for that stat and you haven't provided it.

My statistics showed a correlation between black/latino police encounters and their crime rates. That means something (i.e. it supports the argument that those communities aren't being targetted in any unusual manner)

If you think that’s what my stats were about in that post then you didn’t even read my post or the links I provided.

Overheal

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

How threaten are you by this guy that he needs to be shown who's boss?

What happened here

FatherTed

RIGOLO wrote: »

yep it was the white man that made the black man go out and shoot 1000 plus other black men in Chicago so far this year.
It was the white mans systemic racism that made the black man go out and shoot over 2000 other black men last year in Chicago

the only thing systemic about whats goign on is that the Democrats who run the bulk of these cities are systemically inept at running anything....
https://www.chicagotribune.com/data/ct-shooting-victims-map-charts-htmlstory.html

It was the white man systemic racism that made my dinner go cold... who can I contact on this

Black on black crime is not racism. Try to keep up, I know it must be hard with all the hate you have in your heart.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Overheal wrote: »

What happened here

From what I'm reading, he got shot in the face with a rubber bullet, happened in LA.

joe40

cdeb wrote: »

Yes, of course.

Because for me, that's the problem. You can't kneel on someone's neck and kill them when you're trying to restrain them - white or black. It's outrageous stuff. And it's obviously not an isolated incident; the videos in the past few days alone have plenty that shouldn't be happening.

There's been bits in this thread earlier on police training, which is less than half the time it is here (two years here v 9 months max in America - and they have guns to deal with in America); that has to be an issue that needs addressing. Why is there a discrepancy there?

Police accountability is another issue. The police who killed Timpa never faced charges, and the county fought to avoid the footage being released for three years. That's not acceptable.

Then why is black crime so high? That's another issue. Part of it is because of societal pressure (ironically, I think immigration plays a part in that, because the importation of cheap labour just creates a meat market at the bottom of the labour market. I say "ironically" because the people who go out of their way to promote diversity and multiculturalism probably wouldn't appreciate the suggestion that large-scale immigration is potentially a societal problem)

But also the communities themselves have to try get a handle on it themselves, and I don't see much acknowledgement of it as an issue (though I haven't been looking too closely)

But to try reduce this all to "white guy kills black guy" papers over all the above issues. It is creating an aura where some will even try to dismiss any attempt to delve into the matter as racist.

How are things going to improve in that environment?

I don't think you can divorce the societal and poverty issues from systemic racism in the US. It doesn't have to be overt racism even sub conscious bias can be very damaging

I don't think anger at this level would exist in the black community without reason. And I also do not think mainstream media around the world are that easily manipulated. There are race issues in the US and there are police brutality issues in the US. For me that is definitely true.

These protests do not exclusively involve black people. People from all backgrounds are protesting.

Maybe it would be an idea to encompass all police brutality, but these particular protests are specific to one area at the minute.

cdeb

Overheal wrote: »

If you think that’s what my stats were about in that post then you didn’t even read my post or the links I provided.

A standard whataboutery answer tbh

I read your post. It gave a stat with no context. That makes it meaningless.

Chiparus

RIGOLO wrote: »

yep it was the white man that made the black man go out and shoot 1000 plus other black men in Chicago so far this year.
It was the white mans systemic racism that made the black man go out and shoot over 2000 other black men last year in Chicago

the only thing systemic about whats goign on is that the Democrats who run the bulk of these cities are systemically inept at running anything....
https://www.chicagotribune.com/data/ct-shooting-victims-map-charts-htmlstory.html

It was the white man systemic racism that made my dinner go cold... who can I contact on this

The same things were said about the Irish, especially in the North of Ireland, where irish nationalists were excluded from employment and housing especially with poorer classes.
Irish nationalists were excluded from commerce - bank managers tended to be British unionists.
They could only buy poorer agricultural land.
Many were forced to emigrate.

The catholices were eventually living in poor and squalid conditions, reinforcing the Unionist/British opinion that they were/are sub- human.

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

A standard whataboutery answer tbh

I read your post. It gave a stat with no context. That makes it meaningless.

It gave lots of context. A huge write up by the Washington post. Another by FiveThirtyEight. “Whataboutism?” You’re barking mad