George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

It in fact didn't mention race at all. It's just 75% of all police stops were unjustified.

Fairly big oversight there on your part.

It did say that the PD stopped black people out of proportion to their population - but again, is it in proportion to their crime rate? If so, I would argue that's not unexpected.

No other studies show they are about 20% more likely to be stopped in disproportion. And the Stanford study underscores the point.

walshb

cdeb wrote: »

It in fact didn't mention race at all. It's just 75% of all police stops were unjustified.

Fairly big oversight there on your part.

It did say that the PD stopped black people out of proportion to their population - but again, is it in proportion to their crime rate? If so, I would argue that's not unexpected.

Indeed...

And what does unjustified mean here? That the actual stop itself should never have taken place, or that the stop resulted in the person(s) being stopped not having committed any crimes?

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Indeed...

And what does unjustified mean here? That the actual stop itself should never have taken place, or that the stop resulted in the person(s) being stopped not having committed any crimes?

The DOJ determined that 75%~ of stops were unconstitutional.

cdeb

Overheal wrote: »

No other studies show they are about 20% more likely to be stopped in disproportion. And the Stanford study underscores the point.

20% more likely to be stopped?

That's not actually very much given that demographic's increased crime rate. Is it really an issue? If it were many times more likely, maybe - but 20%?

I've also pointed out a big flaw in the Stanford study, which it acknowledges itself.

The more statistics emerge about this, the less inclined I am to believe that there's a serious race problem here.

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

It in fact didn't mention race at all. It's just 75% of all police stops were unjustified.

Fairly big oversight there on your part.

It did say that the PD stopped black people out of proportion to their population - but again, is it in proportion to their crime rate? If so, I would argue that's not unexpected.

Similarly, the Stanford article actually includes this part on how their findings may not be race-related (which is pretty much the same point I've been arguing all along) -



Emphasis is mine.

So you can see why I'm wary of people bandying stats about willy-nilly

The bolded bit in the Stanford study was just one of the graphs. They acknowledged this point and so looked at the data from many other angles. Take the whole article, don’t cherry-pick it..

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

20% more likely to be stopped?

That's not actually very much given that demographic's increased crime rate. Is it really an issue? If it were many times more likely, maybe - but 20%?

I've also pointed out a big flaw in the Stanford study, which it acknowledges itself.

The more statistics emerge about this, the less inclined I am to believe that there's a serious race problem here.

Again it’s not a big flaw if you aren’t a disingenuous cherry picker. Look at the whole findings of the project!

cdeb

Overheal wrote: »

The bolded bit in the Stanford study was just one of the graphs.

No - it was a generic comment on hit rates attributable to each of the stats which had preceded (stop rate, search rate, charge rate), which are worked out the same way.

cdeb

Overheal wrote: »

Again it’s not a big flaw if you aren’t a disingenuous cherry picker. Look at the whole findings of the project!

You didn't link the "other studies" which mentioned a 20% rate. Kinda hard to look at them.

Though given your poor grasp of statistics to date, I think my original view would still be valid anyway.

And "disingenuous"? You're the one who quoted the rate at which black people are stopped by police as evidence of racial bias, and when challenged realised it was actually all people with no mention of race...

Outlaw Pete

joe40 wrote: »

Even just look at the video posted above, are you seriously going to tell me if a heavily armed black man walked around like that in a tense situation he would simply be told to go home.

Cant't get more tense then around the KKK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_8WjNf4GI

How about a situation were a black armed gang are chanting "Oink, oink; bang, bang":

There seems to be a determined attempt to show that black people are being oppressed in America and that there is systemic racism in the police force and it really isn't helping. There absolutely should be marches on the street right now, but they shouldn't be about black lives mattering, they should be about police brutality as a whole, as that is what the real issue is.

Unfortunately though not all deaths at the hands of the police in the States are reported in the same amplified way, and that just results in people understandably feeling 'hunted' (as one politician remarked) and so what is needed is the issue to be reported on in a responsible way but it won't be as its become a hot button topic to be exploited by politicians and this brutal killing of George Floyd is shamefully being used as just that.

The death of David Dorn and others who have either been killed or injured after having got caught up in the protests (in one way or another) are proof positive of just how important the role of news reporting is in society and the impact that it can have, as if this killing had been reported correctly, it would never have led to such violence and destruction. For the MSM to immediately lead with this story as if racist motivation was a given is a scandal. People are dead because of it.

YFlyer

Tasfasdf wrote: »

Did they survey the whole country or just a few Americans.

Click on the link in the 1st paragraph.

Tell me how

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

The death of David Dorn and others who have either been killed or injured after having got caught up in the protests (in one way or another) are proof positive of just how important the role of news reporting is in society and the impact that it can have, as if this killing had been reported correctly, it would never have led to such violence and destruction. For the MSM to immediately lead with this story as if racist motivation was a given is a scandal. People are dead because of it.

What did you make of Laura Ingraham's comments on Drew Brees versus her comments on Lebron James?

circadian

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Cant't get more tense then around the KKK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5_8WjNf4GI

How about a situation were a black armed gang are chanting "Oink, oink; bang, bang":

There seems to be a determined attempt to show that black people are being oppressed in America and that there is systemic racism in the police force and it really isn't helping. There absolutely should be marches on the street right now, but they shouldn't be about black lives mattering, they should be about police brutality as a whole, as that is what the real issue is.

Unfortunately though not all deaths at the hands of the police in the States are reported in the same amplified way, and that just results in people understandably feeling 'hunted' (as one politician remarked) and so what is needed is the issue to be reported on in a responsible way but it won't be as its become a hot button topic to be exploited by politicians and this brutal killing of George Floyd is shamefully being used as just that.

The death of David Dorn and others who have either been killed or injured after having got caught up in the protests (in one way or another) are proof positive of just how important the role of news reporting is in society and the impact that it can have, as if this killing had been reported correctly, it would never have led to such violence and destruction. For the MSM to immediately lead with this story as if racist motivation was a given is a scandal. People are dead because of it.

People are dead as a result of a corrupt and unaccountable police force.

owlbethere

Overheal wrote: »

What happened here

That looks appalling. If you see the man in the wheelchair. He's white. The image does show the police brutality that is talked about but I don't think the police brutality is race related. So the world getting their knickers in a twist for a sad ending to a black thug, is not racism.

Overheal

cdeb wrote: »

You didn't link the "other studies" which mentioned a 20% rate. Kinda hard to look at them.

Though given your poor grasp of statistics to date, I think my original view would still be valid anyway.

And "disingenuous"? You're the one who quoted the rate at which black people are stopped by police as evidence of racial bias, and when challenged realised it was actually all people with no mention of race...

20% comes from the Stanford study...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html

And that’s how I know you didn’t read it

Overheal

owlbethere wrote: »

That looks appalling. If you see the man in the wheelchair. He's white. The image does show the police brutality that is talked about but I don't think the police brutality is race related. So the world getting their knickers in a twist for a sad ending to a black thug, is not racism.

One does not negate the other. You can have racism and bad policing both.

For example: a 2019 investigation showed that Minneapolis PD had not bothered to test rape kits for 1,700 victims over the last 30 years.

weldoninhio

Tadeo Fit Calf wrote: »

It is certain that the policeman killed Floyd. It's not certain that he was racist.

But that's not even that relevant. He's just one person. It seems pretty clear that he thought he could kneel on his neck without consequences. I can't see him feeling safe to do that to a white person. That points to institutional systemic racism. And that is a big deal.

I guess people will point to the old guy being pushed and stuff like that. That was unnecessary but doesn't remotely compare.

You haven’t heard of Tony Timpa?? Almost the exact same thing happened, except Timpa had called the cops himself and hadn’t broken any law.

owlbethere

Overheal wrote: »

One does not negate the other. You can have racism and bad policing both.

For example: a 2019 investigation showed that Minneapolis PD had not bothered to test rape kits for 1,700 victims over the last 30 years.

That is a valid point.

Overheal

Reports from LA protester interment of sexual assault performed by LAPD. Many more accounts online of what happened with the Jackie Robinson stadium debacle. 5+ hours for some people with no restroom access, a lesbian who was groped by 2 officers, another who was told “you have no rights here.” Through Facebook and twitter testimonials.

joe40

circadian wrote: »

People are dead as a result of a corrupt and unaccountable police force.

Exactly, if the BLM protests result in better policing, better oversight, better training (big if, I know) then that has to be a benefit for everyone.
Especially poorer communities regardless of race or ethnicity.

This constant militarisation of police, as their only response to crime is creating a vicious circle.

Force by the police, even lethal force, is necessary sometimes, but they have to exercise that force with care.

cdeb

Overheal wrote: »

20% comes from the Stanford study...

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/21/us/police-stops-race-stanford-study-trnd/index.html

And that’s how I know you didn’t read it

You mentioned "other studies" which you didn't cite.

The same Stanford study explains how you could pull a group of people over 20% more often without any sort of bias at all.

So the point doesn't stand up.

biko

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There seems to be a determined attempt to show that black people are being oppressed in America and that there is systemic racism in the police force and it really isn't helping. There absolutely should be marches on the street right now, but they shouldn't be about black lives mattering, they should be about police brutality as a whole, as that is what the real issue is.

US police are actually less inclined to shoot at black suspects




https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1745-9133.12187

We found that, despite clear evidence of implicit bias against Black suspects, officers were slower to shoot armed Black suspects than armed White suspects, and they were less likely to shoot unarmed Black suspects than unarmed White suspects.

It's mentioned here https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/07/19/academic-research-on-police-shootings-and-race/

Carfacemandog

American opinions on police racism have shifted quite a bit over the last 6 years, with 30% more believing that there are issues with brutality against black people now than then.

cdeb

cdeb wrote: »

Where did I say that? (Hint - I didn't)

Why would you try attribute a comment to me that I haven't remotely said?

Why do you honestly think it makes sense to put words into my mouth like that? It is a really pig-ignorant way of debating.

There is a lot to protest about. That's why I praised the clarity of the google docs report documenting police brutality in all of this (which just listed events, and didn't try bring race into it). That's why I've previously commented that societal issues are a big factor - we all know what American ultra-capitalism (for want of a better phrase) is like in terms of the way it creates and treats its poor.

These are things to be protested. But by making all it about race, the real issues get hidden. That's the point I've been making all along.

Could the reason for not mentioning race be an attempt to inflate the numbers and then sneakily imply it is all white cops versus unarmed black men?

Carfacemandog

Carfacemandog wrote: »

American opinions on police racism have shifted quite a bit over the last 6 years, with 30% more believing that there are issues with brutality against black people now than then.

Scary if true. Reminds me of Goebbels Big Lie theory. If a lie gets repeated often enough eventually people believe it.

Edgware

Overheal wrote: »

One does not negate the other. You can have racism and bad policing both.

For example: a 2019 investigation showed that Minneapolis PD had not bothered to test rape kits for 1,700 victims over the last 30 years.

Say it aint so Krusty

peddlelies

Absolute state of it

completedit

peddlelies wrote: »

Absolute state of it

I'm loving these new episodes of south park. you couldn't make the smugness up

Sam Quentin

Sam Quentin wrote: »

That 'Neus Channel CNM' needs to be hacked of the air... inciting protests which they know right well will lead to violence,.and all because they hate Mr Trump. Absolutely unbelievable totally shocking behaviour. Gawwwwwd they have a lot to answer to!?!?

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Maybe you need a break from the neus channel cnm? It doesn't seem to be doing you any good, have a break have a kit kat with a nice cup of tea.. I'd recommend Barry's tea.

NoNoNo
I think they should be relentlessly called out.
Just as they are relentless with fake news concerning Donald. Because they hate Mr Trump.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Poor Donnie he's gonna love looking out the window in the morning and seeing this..

"The city of Washington, D.C., is echoing a call for justice by naming a road and painting an unmissable message on a street that leads to the White House: Black lives matter."

https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/dc-paints-black-lives-matter-on-street-near-lafayette-square-street-renamed-black-lives-matter-way/2323647/?fbclid=IwAR0rWI0GxTCkTJuT1v2OvpIjGJtIcHCvystlDMC4To4Inyba4C4FfjjwdsA

punisher5112

peddlelies wrote: »

Absolute state of it

Oh no the white privilege comments.....

The scariest part is a lot of these loons are actually educated.....