George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

Stateofyou

anplaya27 wrote: »

I would argue as a Deaf Irish Sign Language user the Deaf community has faced more oppression and marginalisation here than the black community in Ireland ever has.

Wheres the outrage for when we were segregated? Wheres the outrage for our linguistic suppression ( when Irish Sign Language, now recognised as a native language of Ireland since 2017, was banned in the past from use because of church and later state policy ) with Deaf people being punished if they were caught signing? Wheres the outrage for the sexual, psychological and emotional abuse the Deaf community suffered at the hands of the Catholic church? Wheres our apology for a lack of access to education, employment, healthcare etc , the list goes on.

An average black person in Ireland probably has a lot more privilege than an average Deaf ISL user will ever have.

Why can't there be both support for both, why in the world does it have to be one or the other? Are you black or any other person of colour? How do you know for sure the deaf community essentially suffers more and why does that even matter - maybe they're both important issues that deserve attention and work. If you feel those issues deserve more attention, funding, support or whatever it is, you don't need to detract from other important issues or put down those efforts and just complain. Teen girls in the US organised some of the biggest protests that have been seen (not to mention Greta Thunberg and her climate efforts). Where's the attention to the deaf community you ask? What are you doing about it?

THE_SHEEP

AllForIt wrote: »

Charlie Flanagan thinks the Irish are in fact racist. Jaw drop.

https://twitter.com/CharlieFlanagan/status/1270083860907413504


And Normal People actress things racism is 'ingrained' in Irish society because some group of knackers called her a chink.

Good man Charlie .

Just another " bandwagon jumper " taking advantage of a persons death , to further their own agenda / cause . Scumbag .

( P.s Suppose , what else would you expect from an Auld Black and Tan ).

Jeff2

I was watching the Irish news that is in irish as gaeilge and loads of people out for BLM.

All white bar one I seen.

Strange.

Stateofyou

Cupatae wrote: »

All in the name of BLM they called for this and here it is, it's ridiculous them rioting in the UK and else where outside the US its just bandwagoners thug scum at it now any excuse but no doubt about it BLM have blood on there hands.

This and the person your post quoted... which talked about support for the movement being all but gone now... because a very small few out of the 100's of thousands who are peacefully protesting, is stopping further understanding and empathy and hard work for real change that is valid and needed. That's an excuse. More POLICE have blood on their hands. Slave owners, creators and enforcers and condoners of Jim Crow laws and separate but equal laws and people who engaged in lynchings and brutality over the decades have more blood on their hands. Why aren't you focusing on that reality instead of the tiny and insignificant impact of protests/riots instead of the 10's of thousands who have died at the hands of this injustice for hundreds of years? Smh. Those who can look past the bs to the real issues get it, and they'll fight for change. Everyone else is looking for convenient excuses to continue on in their biases so they never have to do the hard work it takes to work for real change.

Silentcorner

Tell me how wrote: »

Lol at the first paragraph, and then the opening sentence of the second.

About the level of intellectual debate generally present amongst those railing against any shift from what they think is normal.

Says the guy who wants to abolish the police but has no idea how beyond hiring a few social workers!

It wasn't always normal to have a functioning police force you know...dragging us backward isn't exactly a shift from the norm!!!

bloodless_coup

AllForIt wrote: »

And Normal People actress things racism is 'ingrained' in Irish society because some group of knackers called her a chink.

https://www.rte.ie/entertainment/2020/0608/1146152-normal-peoples-aoife-hinds-racially-abused-in-dublin/

Wow second article in one day with someone claiming how racist Ireland is.

RTE really pushing the agenda.

bloodless_coup

Jeff2 wrote: »

I was watching the Irish news that is in irish as gaeilge and loads of people out for BLM.

All white bar one I seen.

Strange.

Self hating whites, worse than self hating Jews.

Silentcorner

bloodless_coup wrote: »

Wow second article in one day with someone claiming how racist Ireland is.

RTE really pushing the agenda.

The thing about media is, they haven't copped on that the majority of us don't care what they are pushing on us....they are appealing to those who are easily excitable!!!

There is now a movement to defund the BBC sparked by their handling of these events (one headline, 27 officers injured in largely peaceful protest).

You can only push people so far.

These news organisations have become the news, there is no way back from that.

Cupatae

Jeff2 wrote: »

I was watching the Irish news that is in irish as gaeilge and loads of people out for BLM.

All white bar one I seen.

Strange.

It's embarrassing tbh

THE_SHEEP

bloodless_coup wrote: »

Self hating whites, worse than self hating Jews.

I wouldn't say " loads " .

Mostly these " woke Twitter ones " .

They also try and brain wash the older generation into marching and kneeling

Like " if you support the Black Lives Matter , there'll be no blight in the spuds this year " .

Some Irish are really gullible for that type of stuff .

Christy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nope. I said the people were armed. I didn't say anything about the firearms being drawn or used, did i?

I pointed to the very real aspect of policing in the US where many people are carrying. And yes, that does suggest the risks involved. Anyone who grew up in Ireland where guns were/are very rare, would (hopefully) understand that the risk is rather scary for any police officer. Personally, I can't imagine living with such a danger every day of a career... Being a Gardai seems so tame in comparison (and there are risks for them too).



Naturally, because those killed by the police were victims, yes?



I've heard a lot of people talk about gun control. I know people with left associations who own firearms in the US, and feel that they have the right to do so. You're attempting to make this solely about the right. I disagree with that.

And yes, I have heard the argument that more firearms being available in places like Texas mean a reduction in violent crime. I don't know enough to really form a definite opinion, although I've always considered the situation to be completely ****ed up. I've always steered clear of US firearm debates, because it's a problem with no answer.



And those posters who talk about both the police brutality and the actions of the protesters? Oh... don't get me wrong. This thread is chock full of posters sitting on two fences shouting at each other, how their side is more innocent, more victimized than the other, etc... but there have been other posters with more balanced viewpoints.

And as for your posts, all I've seen were accusations about the police. You've dismissed any suggestions regarding the danger/risks to police officers, and that consideration with regards to the killings. Maybe you provided a more balanced viewpoint earlier and I missed it.

Not all victims of the police are victims. However I can quite easily go to buffalo and point out those officers and the ones who applauded them.

Ah sorry. Missed what you meant about balance. No I don't really see the dangers of policing as relevant here. There was no danger to Chauvin, there was no danger to the police officers pushing over an old man or those who dragged students out of cars or to those clearing out peaceful protestors for Trumps walk. Yes policing is a dangerous job. Especially in the US but they seem to be able to dish out police brutality without danger.

A dangerous job is not an excuse for inability to do said job, it is the job. Like any job it should be made as safe as possible but people shouldn't get passes to break the law because they have a dangerous job. If having a dangerous job is making them overly violent and unable to do their job then they need to be bringing that up themselves and looking for ways to change that. Maybe they could work with protestors. However the police side seems to be excuses or denial of a problem.

Outside of anything else. The US figures are ridiculous and need to change. I expect officers to admit this and work towards progress.

Edit: the being armed or not was not being snippy at you, it was a reference to the 1k unarmed deaths quoted at some point and saying the true figure of unneeded deaths may be higher.

Paddygreen

bloodless_coup wrote: »

Wow second article in one day with someone claiming how racist Ireland is.

RTE really pushing the agenda.

RTE has done a fantastic job raising awareness all throughout the Coronavirus Emergency and the Climate Change Crisis. There are some fabulous people at RTE that are doing stellar work pointing out white privilege and racism in Ireland. I am just off Skype, I was having a group chat with my BLM homies and the consensus is that RTE collectively is one of the proverbial good guys. The only way to stamp out racism is to stamp out racists bruv. When I come out of lockdown I plan to hit the streets and strut with my local BLM crew in a show of force that will show racist honky mofos just how serious we are. Big shout out to my BLM crew in Dalkey.

Higgins5473

Paddygreen wrote: »

RTE has done a fantastic job raising awareness all throughout the Coronavirus Emergency and the Climate Change Crisis. There are some fabulous people at RTE that are doing stellar work pointing out white privilege and racism in Ireland. I am just off Skype, I was having a group chat with my BLM homies and the consensus is that RTE collectively is one of the proverbial good guys. The only way to stamp out racism is to stamp out racists bruv. When I come out of lockdown I plan to hit the streets and strut with my local BLM crew in a show of force that will show racist honky mofos just how serious we are. Big shout out to my BLM crew in Dalkey.

Word. De Dalkey mafia assemblin fam.

~Rebel~

Silentcorner wrote: »

Says the guy who wants to abolish the police but has no idea how beyond hiring a few social workers!

It wasn't always normal to have a functioning police force you know...dragging us backward isn't exactly a shift from the norm!!!

How about the same way it happened on our own island in 2001? An ineffective, inherently biased and brutal police force in the North was dismantled and replaced with something better, fairer, and more balanced.

~Rebel~

Cupatae wrote: »

It's embarrassing tbh

Why is it strange, and why is it embarrassing?

Connacht15

folks, I kinda misposted this one in the umbrella protest section -

I would love to hear your considered opinions on this aspect of the protests here!

WRT our lovely middle crass bratz protesting in Ireland at the original incident!
I think there is 2 reasons why this man was murdered by the US Cops


1 The colour of his skin, which makes him more of a target and is probably 60% -70% of the reason


2 The perception that being of colour means you are working class and therefore society has to be protected against the likes of you as a working class person which is probably 30% - 40% of the reason!


Our lovelee middle crass beautz protesting away either don't realize or refuse to accept one fact of life -
they substantially benefit, especially when they're young, by having working class people slapped down and discriminated against here in our great little country!

Peregrinus

Connacht15 wrote: »

folks, I kinda misposted this one in the umbrella protest section -

I would love to hear your considered opinions on this aspect of the protests here!

WRT our lovely middle crass bratz protesting in Ireland at the original incident!
I think there is 2 reasons why this man was murdered by the US Cops


1 The colour of his skin, which makes him more of a target and is probably 60% -70% of the reason


2 The perception that being of colour means you are working class and therefore society has to be protected against the likes of you as a working class person which is probably 30% - 40% of the reason!


Our lovelee middle crass beautz protesting away either don't realize or refuse to accept one fact of life -
they substantially benefit, especially when they're young, by having working class people slapped down and discriminated against here in our great little country!

You think that because they benefit from injustice they should therefore support it, and the only possible explanation for their not supporting it is that they fail to realise that they benefit from it?

You must not be a very nice person.

Overheal

Silentcorner wrote: »

Defunding the police is exactly that, as your video clip confirmed...stop trying to hide from it.

What is being recommended is diverting that money to local services...in the hope that that will decrease crime in the first place...

It is crazy.....what you are seeing here is the Democratic Party in freefall...this is madness...

But maybe I'm wrong....

There are over 700,000 police officers in the US...what should it be reduced to?

Should the riot squad be scrapped?
Should homicide department go?
What about traffic cops?
Etc Etc

Replace with what social workers?

Let’s start with demilitarization.

John Oliver focused on this when Michael Brown was shot in Fergusson. You’d be surprised (or not) at how little is different between then and now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

Overheal

Silentcorner wrote: »

Ever hear of community policing?

Is that 3 white guys vs a black jogger?

Overheal

Carfacemandog wrote: »

More 'very fine' white supremacists trying to cause chaos at peaceful protests.



Man who drove through group of protesters is leader of KKK

A subversive terrorist organization that is still allowed to operate. Only a racist system of law and order would tolerate such an organization to exist.

Tell me how

Silentcorner wrote: »

The thing about media is, they haven't copped on that the majority of us don't care what they are pushing on us....they are appealing to those who are easily excitable!!!

There is now a movement to defund the BBC sparked by their handling of these events (one headline, 27 officers injured in largely peaceful protest).

You can only push people so far.

These news organisations have become the news, there is no way back from that.

No evidence once again that any of this is the case.

You're going to have to stop thinking you know what the majority thinks based on your selection of accounts to pay attention to on Twitter.

Your statement above reminds me of the threads here proclaiming with confidence that most people were going to vote for Peter Casey in the run up to the Presidential Election.

I suppose 23.3% was a majority in your eyes that time also.

Connacht15

Peregrinus wrote: »

You think that because they benefit from injustice they should therefore support it, and the only possible explanation for their not supporting it is that they fail to realise that they benefit from it?

You must not be a very nice person.

My point is that our young middle class lovlees are very upset by racially motivated abuse, which is absolutely correct, but there is an irony in that they actively benefit from the classist based abuse of working class people.
And most of them are so fooking thick, they have no comprehension of this fact!

Peregrinus

Connacht15 wrote: »

My point is that our young middle class lovlees are very upset by racially motivated abuse, which is absolutely correct, but there is an irony in that they actively benefit from the classist based abuse of working class people.
And most of them are so fooking thick, they have no comprehension of this fact!

I'm not sure that you can so easily disentangle race and class prejudice. And I'm not sure that there is any evidence to support your view that the protestors fail to appreciate that they benefit from their relative privilege. The usual criticism (right now, being constantly voiced in this very thread; see post # 7936 for a recent example) is that they are guilty, self-hating, etc, which is the very opposite of your view.

What makes you think they are unaware of their privilege as middle-class white people? Have you any reason to think they are less perceptive than you are, or do you just assume it?

Manic Moran

KiKi III wrote: »

As in “Abolish the police as it is currently structured and create a new force that is better fit for purpose”

But that’s too long for a sign.

Read past the headline. Listen past the sound bite.

"Abolish/Defund the Police" is utter hogwash as a slogan.

Not the base idea of putting money to solve societal problems which are the root behind crime/police interactions and prevent things from escalating in the first place. The idea is sound. I've been arguing in favour of that sort of thing for years. Police have been arguing for that sort of thing for years and they certainly aren't saying "Abolish the police". No, it's the rallying cry of cognitive dissonance that police are the problem. Current police relations are a symptom, a knock-on effect. A call to "abolish the police" is as much an ignorance of the problem as a call to abolish guns is to the problem of gun violence in the US (which is why this discussion has been happening in the shadows for ages, but people don't want to listen). You don't yell "Abolish Cancer", you yell "Cure cancer" or "Fund Cancer Research". (Granted, F---Cancer's a reasonable thing to say, but that's just cancer doing its default nature with no notable redeeming features)

The real problem is that the politicians haven't been doing their damned jobs and we voters (i.e. those of us in the US who have a vote!) have not been holding them accountable. The right put out a soundbite of "obey the law. It isn't hard. If you don't, that's why we have police." They get votes for it without doing anything more difficult than passing a budget measure, maybe a new law making some behavioural actions criminal. Easy peasy: Next election cycle, they can say "I put 100 cops on the street, we arrested another 1,000 people for crimes". The left is no better. It's much easier to say "guns are the problem" and pass a law banning them. Great soundbite, immediate increase in votes. Easy peasy. Next election cycle, they say "we took 20,000 dangerous weapons off the street." None of which does a damned thing about the underlying nature of societal problems resulting in Americans shooting each other in job lots or the willingness of police to use more force than we would like to see. It certainly isn't a left/right issue, last I checked, Minneapolis PD worked for the Minneapolis government, which has been Democratic for over a half-century. Doesn't seem to have done much good.

However, tackling the societal problems is hard. Answering the question of "why people are committing crime in the first place" is hard enough, solving it is even worse. It requires a decades long program, which will cost a lot of money and probably will result in nothing to show for it by the next election cycle. In the meantime, we expect police not only to be police, but also social workers, mental health professionals, and every other job out there which would result in the downturn in violence but is a solid skillset that the police shouldn't have to be doing in the first place and have been announcing for years that they shouldn't be doing in the first place. But they are, because only a small subset of people have been talking about it and they've been left holding the bag. Only recently will you see articles even saying that police have been hiring social workers, which is a good thing but still isn't something the police budget should be used for. In the meantime, this failing technique is resulting in the continued cycle of crime, violence, risk and suspicion which the above sloganeers wish (finally, correctly) to address.

People are making this an A/B issue. "Defund the police, give it to social services" is not the answer either. Police often don't have enough resources right now as it is. They (a) need the resources to keep things bandaided along until the 'root problems' solution actually starts to work. Anyone who thinks they can just announce a program and get immediate results reducing the requirements for a police response is deluding themselves. (b) When the results actually do come in, police might end up properly funded with the current budget levels. Better yet, not defunding the police whilst addressing the underlying causes is more likely to garner cross-party support.

Even better than that, we get a two for one. Not only will we likely see an improvement in the nature of policing resulting in less use of force, we also solve the gun violence problem. Lovely!

Why are they saying "Defund the police?" or "Abolish the police?". It's because even now people still want to blame something which isn't the root cause of the problem as opposed to looking squarely at it which may also involve looking squarely at themselves. The situation with police, their levels of interaction and uses of force is not the problem, it is a result of the problem. It's another misleading soundbite, which doesn't even have the intellectual honesty to address the issue head-on.

peddlelies

Meanwhile in Chicago

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-saw-its-deadliest-day-in-60-years-with-18-murders-in-24-hours-report

anplaya27

Stateofyou wrote: »

Why can't there be both support for both, why in the world does it have to be one or the other? Are you black or any other person of colour? How do you know for sure the deaf community essentially suffers more and why does that even matter - maybe they're both important issues that deserve attention and work. If you feel those issues deserve more attention, funding, support or whatever it is, you don't need to detract from other important issues or put down those efforts and just complain. Teen girls in the US organised some of the biggest protests that have been seen (not to mention Greta Thunberg and her climate efforts). Where's the attention to the deaf community you ask? What are you doing about it?

Its the Deaf community not deaf. You can look that up if you wish to get a better understanding of Deaf culture and identity. The Deaf community has existed in Ireland for hundreds of years, whilst the black community is very much recent. We are only a very small minority with no voice compared to the black community. The black communities numbers in Ireland are huge compared to ours and more importantly, they are able to hear. That makes a huge difference. They have that privilege, we dont.

Peregrinus

Manic Moran wrote: »

"Abolish/Defund the Police" is utter hogwash as a slogan . . .

These are two completely different slogans. And I'm not sure that anybody is calling for the police to be abolished.

"Defund the police" is an attempt to address a genuine problem, which is that the police are being used to address problems that, basically, are not police problems and can't be solved by police methods. This is, unsurprisingly, hugely expensive and hugely inefficient. It boths fails to resolve the problem that it is addressing, and consumes resources which, if more wisely spent, might more effectively address that problem. Policing is massively expensive, and that comes at the expense of other agencies; check out this chart of the proposed allocation of the City of Baltimore's expenditures in its 2021 budget:

Someone is having a mental health crisis? Call the police. Someone is homeless? Call the police. Someone is having a psychotic episode? Call the police. Someone is behaving dangerously as a result of intoxication or substance abuse? Call the police. Not only are police methods not useful for solving mental, psychiatric, housing etc problems, but they can often exacerbate the problem - and the more the police are paramilitarised, the worse this becomes. To a man with a hammer, everythign is a nail; to a man with a gun, every intractible problem is presumed to be susceptible to redemptive violence. And so here we are.

So, fund your mental health services; fund your housing services; fund crisis intervention services, family support services. In terms of crime reduction and harm reduction, you'll get better value for your half a billion dollars.

You won't abolish the police; you'll still have a police force. But it will be smaller, and it will do police work. What's not to like?

hetuzozaho

Manic Moran wrote: »

in
Why are they saying "Defund the police?" or "Abolish the police?". .

"We committed to dismantling policing as we know it in the city of Minneapolis and to rebuild with our community a new model of public safety that actually keeps our community safe," Council President Lisa Bender told CNN.

Instead of armed cops turning up to everything, and apparently they are mostly trained in firearm usage(?) they will instead have people trained how to deal with the issues facing the community. Sounds kind of like what you are saying I think. Start to help the community with its problems rather than just policing it.

Sounds positive and I think they are not the first police force to be disbanded so they have some people in US who have experience in doing so.

Dyr

peddlelies wrote: »

Meanwhile in Chicago

https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-saw-its-deadliest-day-in-60-years-with-18-murders-in-24-hours-report

Less police and more Democrats will soon fix that. Proven formula for success

weldoninhio

Connacht15 wrote: »

folks, I kinda misposted this one in the umbrella protest section -

I would love to hear your considered opinions on this aspect of the protests here!

WRT our lovely middle crass bratz protesting in Ireland at the original incident!
I think there is 2 reasons why this man was murdered by the US Cops


1 The colour of his skin, which makes him more of a target and is probably 60% -70% of the reason


2 The perception that being of colour means you are working class and therefore society has to be protected against the likes of you as a working class person which is probably 30% - 40% of the reason!


Our lovelee middle crass beautz protesting away either don't realize or refuse to accept one fact of life -
they substantially benefit, especially when they're young, by having working class people slapped down and discriminated against here in our great little country!

Did the colour of his skin make him pass off dud $20’s??