George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

Watched it all. How is an individual born today so tied economically to what happened two, three, five, generations before they were born?

That's a good question and the answer for the US (which is different from our history here) lies in systemic racism. If you google that term I'm certain it will do a great job of helping you understand that better.

Try this for a start:
https://youtu.be/YrHIQIO_bdQ

The comment section is also good and there are more links to dig in some more if you are interested.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

That's a good question and the answer for the US (which is different from our history here) lies in systemic racism. If you google that term I'm certain it will do a great job of helping you understand that better.

Try this for a start:
https://youtu.be/YrHIQIO_bdQ

I know what it is. I just don't accept the degree that it's blamed for their situation.

CtevenSrowder

Carioco wrote: »

Thousands of Irish marching on the streets in support of black people.

Our media talking about Black Irish and their struggles.

The overwhelming majority of people support multiculturalism and dinosaurs like yourself are completely irrelevant outside of boards.ie

I'd say your fuming :P:P:P:P:P:P

What evidence have you that 'the overwhelming majority of people support multicultalism'?

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

I know what it is. I just don't accept the degree that it's blamed for their situation.

Then you haven't looked into the issue very deeply. There's a difference between knowing what it refers to and understanding it. It's taken me years to more fully understand their system and history and I'm still learning. Even after living there for a long time. I don't think it helps to stop at a shallow level of understanding and then close yourself off to being open to further getting why it's real and how it works. Quick to blame and judge instead; that doesn't help anything or anyone.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

Then you haven't looked into the issue very deeply. There's a difference between knowing what it refers to and understanding it. It's taken me years to more fully understand their system and history and I'm still learning. Even after living there for a long time. I don't think it helps to stop at a shallow level of understanding and then close yourself off to being open to further get why it's real and how it works. Quick to blame and judge instead; that doesn't help anything or anyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sV5qU6e-YY

Skip to about 3 minutes in.

I live in a country (China) where systematic discrimination exists. I know what it is. Both from personal experience and from close friends who are native minorities. So... don't be so quick to dismiss others pov.

Ultimanemo

Deleted User wrote: »

My family is from the west of Ireland. My grandfather cut turf. Not a terribly good income at the best of times. My family was dirt poor two generations back. .

You remind me of the song below, when they talk about justice they mean to share the fruit not the sweat of your hard work
I love communism at least nobody can stay home and go to nightclubs every Saturday and expect to get everything for free.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb-EJEWRxlM&list=RDLb-EJEWRxlM&start_radio=1&t=27&t=0

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sV5qU6e-YY

Skip to about 3 minutes in.

I live in a country (China) where systematic discrimination exists. I know what it is. Both from personal experience and from close friends who are native minorities. So... don't be so quick to dismiss others pov.

I'm not dismissing your pov! But so far you've pulled in Ireland's history and now China's. We are talking about systemic racism there in the US. The processes and history that is unique to their country.

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's very different to what Kiki was saying.

George Floyds past has been brought up, but I have not seen anyone say he deserved the death he got. And the lootings are a the result of a large section of people who are hijacked peaceful protests and have tarnished their good work.

To not mention either his past or the looting would be disingenuous to say the least.

The lootings and riots are part of the story but George Floyd past has absolutely no bearing or relevance.
There is no evidence to suggest the police knew who he was before the arrest and he was fully subdued so didn't pose a threat.

The whole protest is also not just about one man or one killing. Floyd is the catalyst in this protest, not the cause.

KiKi III

Deleted User wrote: »

That's very different to what Kiki was saying.

George Floyds past has been brought up, but I have not seen anyone say he deserved the death he got. And the lootings are a the result of a large section of people who are hijacked peaceful protests and have tarnished their good work.

To not mention either his past or the looting would be disingenuous to say the least.

How? How is a criminal conviction from 2007 in any way relevant to a police officer killing him as he was handcuffed and unarmed in 2020? Explain it to me.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

I'm not dismissing your pov! But so far you've pulled in Ireland's history and now China's. We are talking about systemic racism there in the US. The processes and history that is unique to their country.

Then consider what I wrote originally, that you responded with your vid.

anplaya27

[Deleted User] wrote: »

TBF, that's something that affects anyone who has a 'condition' that is different from the 'norm'. I have a severe shaking disorder which means it's often very noticeable that I'm shaking. People react in many different ways around me, some more subtle reactions, and others outright hostile. I also tend to get more attention from the police and authority figures (bouncers, barmen, etc).

I'm still equal in terms of rights as other people in Ireland. It's just that I have to claim those rights more often. It is what it is... I learned a long time ago to simply accept it. People make noises about what should happen, but the reality rarely matches the "should".

You obviously know very little about the Deaf, our culture, our shared identity, language, history and traditions. All which have evolved within Deaf communities worldwide over hundreds, if not thousands of years. We wouldnt describe it as a 'condition'. We do not view being Deaf as an impairment or disability. These are hearing terms used to label us. Its as normal to us as being able to hear is to you. That's insulting to us. We do not have the same rights.

We suffer from audism, a form of discrimination just like racism or sexism, on a daily basis. For example, we only got the right to be educated in our own language three years ago in Ireland. In the same year, we only got the right to an interpreter in judicial and criminal settings. Can you imagine being educated in a language you cannot hear and being in a criminal or judicial setting unable to understand what is going on? Theres many more examples like that.

That is not being an equal citizen. The Òireachtas in 2016 has since recognised this and stated that we are a marginalised community and are trying to remedy the numerous and unjust inequalities we face in Irish society. One of the first steps towards equality was language recognition hence you seeing Irish Sign Language interpreters giving us information in our own language during this pandemic on the news briefings. Why are you denying what's true? If you dont know what you're talking about why comment?

This marginalisation of the Deaf was happening everywhere not just in Ireland. I suggest you read about some of the things that happened to Deaf communities in recent history such as the forced sterilisation of the Deaf of which happened in numerous countries including America. They forcibly sterilised Deaf as they believed Deaf would give birth to Deaf children hence the continuation of the Deaf community. This was 20th century eugenics at play. How is that not trying to eradicate a culture? The testing of gas on Deaf children by the Nazis in 1936 which they eventually used in concentration camps. These are just two examples. All because we cannot hear. Does that make it right?

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

Then consider what I wrote originally, that you responded with your vid.

I did consider what you wrote and that's why I responded with the video explaining systemic racism in the US which covers off some of those points you made.

Edited to add: and there's so much more inequity not mentioned. The health care system there for example, the death rates of black mothers in childbirth vs white.

anplaya27

anplaya27 wrote: »

We wouldnt describe it as a 'condition'. That's insulting.

Hence the ''.

KiKi III

Silentcorner wrote: »

No yesterday I asked you to be civil because you have cursed at me on numerous occasions and you have implied that I have psychological issues in previous encounters...I am merely hoping you don't descend to those depths again.

You have no idea what it basically means, because you have no idea what you are on about....you are talking about high crime areas of large American cities and you have linked a number of articles outlining the premise of what you are trying to say those articles have been rubbished.

High Crime areas of cities do not need social workers, the innocent people living there need protection from extremely violent people, now, I have no doubt people will try and water down the implications of Defunding the Police (like you have done above) and leave out a heap of specifics because let's be honest...who needs specifics when you can lash around words like Privilege, or Systematic Racism etc etc...

Now, if you want to start chanting Reform the Police then that is a different matter and much more in line what what ordinary people can agree with...drop the hysterics and people will listen...ramp up the hysterics and people will laugh at you.

Ummm you’re calling people morons while insisting I be civil. Tbh that’s the level of debate I’ve come to expect from you.

You can imply or baldly state that I haven’t a clue as much as you want; this is happening right now all across America.

In New York, LA and Minnesota among others, funding is being redirected from policing to communities, policies around violence against suspects are being immediately reviewed, incidents of police brutality are being taken more seriously, and in some cases the entire police department is being dismantled and rebuilt.

You’re right that I don’t have the knowledge or experience to implement any of the above (neither do you), but the people who do have that knowledge, experience and power are making those changes right now.

#sorrynotsorry it bothers you so much.

joe40

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Watched it all. How is an individual born today so tied economically to what happened two, three, five, generations before they were born?

My family is from the west of Ireland. My grandfather cut turf. Not a terribly good income at the best of times. My family was dirt poor two generations back. My parents struggled to get into university, and to get jobs. My mother went through the discrimination against women. We're not poor now, because we are not dependent on the past for our future. I made my own money, paid my own way through university, got my jobs, and moved when I couldn't. I've lived in seven different towns/cities in Ireland, and four countries outside of Ireland.

It's a cop out. Laying blame on the past to justify the failures of the present. Is it hard? Damn right it is. But you have a choice, Accept the ****ty situation you're in, or make something better of yourself.

That video started off well. I appreciated her opening statements about distinguishing between the three groups... but then she seeks to justify the behavior of the looters. Making excuses for the failure of the black communities, even though other Black people have made themselves wealthy/successful.

Nah. There's too much of this BS going on. The African American group do face challenges but they're something that can be overcome. There are more educational grants available to people of color or disadvantaged backgrounds than there are for similar white poor groups in the US. There are initiatives to place black people in employment in many states. There are options. It's still going to be hard, but life is hard.

That video looks to provide excuses. Which is one of the major reasons (yes, there's other reasons including discrimination) that the Black communities are generally so run down and poverty stricken. They're always looking to pass responsibility to others and not actually do anything to improve their lot. Sure, some communities do improve in the face of their difficulties, but the rhetoric from BLM or others online, is that they have no chance to improve. They're held down. Unable to do anything. Meh.

Your family were dirt poor two generations ago as were mine. They were also dirt poor 3,4,5,6 generations ago.

So what happened in the last 2 generations. Did Irish people simply decide feck this poverty lark.
It wasn't that simple, society changed, the world changed and we were well placed to take advantage.

I do believe black communities in the US face unique challenges, within living memory there was segregation, lynching etc but the repercussions and anger still remain.

I admit I don't know enough about American society or culture to have answers, but I just find it hard to believe there is so much anger, felt by so many people for there not to be real reasons.

Stateofyou

Stateofyou wrote: »

I did consider what you wrote and that's why I responded with the video explaining systemic racism in the US.

Which doesn't solve anything. Providing me a video on a topic I already knew about, doesn't counter the OP that you responded to.

Fine. It doesn't matter if you engage or not.

CrankyHaus

joe40 wrote: »

Your family were dirt poor two generations ago as were mine. They were also dirt poor 3,4,5,6 generations ago.

So what happened in the last 2 generations. Did Irish people simply decide feck this poverty lark.
It wasn't that simple, society changed, the world changed and we were well placed to take advantage.

I do believe black communities in the US face unique challenges, within living memory there was segregation, lynching etc but the repercussions and anger still remain.

I admit I don't know enough about American society or culture to have answers, but I just find it hard to believe there is so much anger, felt by so many people for there not to be real reasons.

Drugs, The War on Drugs and the broader changes in policing and incarceration in American society have all been disastrous for black communities.
Both arose only shortly after the civil rights movement finally ended Jim Crow and similar segregation.
Sharp increases in income and wealth inequality since 1980 have also disproportionately affected black communities as many of them were only getting onto the ladder of social advancement, that benefited the broader working class enormously since the New Deal, when it was being pulled up.
All of this gave little breathing space for social advancement since formal discrimination was dismantled.

hetuzozaho

joe40 wrote: »

Your family were dirt poor two generations ago as were mine. They were also dirt poor 3,4,5,6 generations ago.

So what happened in the last 2 generations. Did Irish people simply decide feck this poverty lark.
It wasn't that simple, society changed, the world changed and we were well placed to take advantage.

I do believe black communities in the US face unique challenges, within living memory there was segregation, lynching etc but the repercussions and anger still remain.

I admit I don't know enough about American society or culture to have answers, but I just find it hard to believe there is so much anger, felt by so many people for there not to be real reasons.

I was watching the round table last night with Trump on law enforcement and I think it was Barr who was saying that up to the mid 1960s(?), black people in the US were officially not treated equally by Law Enforcement. It's mad when you think about it.

Actually here is the quote:

"ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR: in fact, maybe just up to 60 years ago — the law was explicitly discriminatory and did not provide equal protection. "

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-roundtable-law-enforcement/

So much damage done it's hard to know where you would start.

owlbethere

Why are some people here marching in Ireland for the American systematic failures when we had a lot of systematic failures here in Ireland and not a budge out of people. What happened to Morris McCabe. The man tried to speak out about abuse happening with the penalty point system and he was painted as a peado for his trouble. No body marched for that systematic failure of our state.

yourdeadwright

owlbethere wrote: »

Why are some people here marching in Ireland for the American systematic failures when we had a lot of systematic failures here in Ireland and not a budge out of people. What happened to Morris McCabe. The man tried to speak out about abuse happening with the penalty point system and he was painted as a peado for his trouble. No body marched for that systematic failure of our state.

They marched because it looks great on there Instagram account,
Half the people in that march would run a mile if someone from the travelling community said hello , When in fact there the ones that suffer from systematic racism in Ireland not black people

Oh and yes I know of course there is racism towards black people here and its complete wrong and unacceptable but its not systematic,

Silentcorner

KiKi III wrote: »

Ummm you’re calling people morons while insisting I be civil. Tbh that’s the level of debate I’ve come to expect from you.

You can imply or baldly state that I haven’t a clue as much as you want; this is happening right now all across America.

In New York, LA and Minnesota among others, funding is being redirected from policing to communities, policies around violence against suspects are being immediately reviewed, incidents of police brutality are being taken more seriously, and in some cases the entire police department is being dismantled and rebuilt.

You’re right that I don’t have the knowledge or experience to implement any of the above (neither do you), but the people who do have that knowledge, experience and power are making those changes right now.

#sorrynotsorry it bothers you so much.

If you think reacting to $100,000,000s of damage done by rioters across Democratically run cities (predominantly) by defunding the police or abolishing the police is going to play well in the coming election you may well be in for a surprise....it has to be the dumbest reaction to mass riots we've ever seen....they couldn't even let the dust settle.

You know how moronic these times are when you see celebrities, most of whom live in gated communities, paying the bail for people arrested for damaging property and harming people....you'd need to be some class of idiot not to see what is wrong with that!! That is reckless behaviour that that may very well lead to more crime or criminal behaviour....The beauty of living in a gated community is you get to keep the scum out!

Rebuilding, rebranding, retraining or whatever is NOT abolishing the police, it is reforming the police, a much more understandable reaction, even if it has been a result of mass hysteria.

Abolishing the police is exactly what certain elected officials in the US are advocating for, you saw the clip of that headbanger in Minnesota earlier who waffled on about privilege when asked who will you call if your house is being burgled.

Here are two more headbangers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4maDJ4O4IA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=310kkYNOAkg

Like all policies we are seeing form the left in the US, all emotion no specifics...this is classic infantile behaviour, so, I ask you again, what police departments will be defunded or abolished and be specific? Because that is what voters in the US will want to know....voters who aren't whipped into a frenzy by twitter hashtags that is!!!

~Rebel~

hetuzozaho wrote: »

I was watching the round table last night with Trump on law enforcement and I think it was Barr who was saying that up to the mid 1960s(?), black people in the US were officially not treated equally by Law Enforcement. It's mad when you think about it.

Actually here is the quote:

"ATTORNEY GENERAL BARR: in fact, maybe just up to 60 years ago — the law was explicitly discriminatory and did not provide equal protection. "

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-roundtable-law-enforcement/

So much damage done it's hard to know where you would start.

Not to mention that the police are vastly undertrained (13 to 19 weeks training compared to Irelands 104 weeks for gardai), and vastly overarmed with demonstrably little oversight. It’s a recipe for disaster, and a disaster it’s been for long enough that millions are on the streets to protest it.

owlbethere

yourdeadwright wrote: »

They marched because it looks great on there Instagram account,
Half the people in that march would run a mile if someone from the travelling community said hello , When in fact there the ones that suffer from systematic racism in Ireland not black people

Oh and yes I know of course there is racism towards black people here and its complete wrong and unacceptable but its not systematic,

Spot on. There's Dublin North and South divide and discrimination against the poorer parts of Dublin when many of them people needs the rest of the population to stop judging them and they need help with opportunities. Unemployment would be high there because of people unfairly judging them as all the same. Is it Dublin North that would be considered poorer and the Dublin South, the posh side? I'm not from Dublin so I might have got that wrong. The North (the most run down and deprived areas of Dublin) they absolutely need a leg up in life.

weldoninhio

Stateofyou wrote: »

Asking for clarification by saying "what are you on about" when the point was made perfectly well in plain English is a deflection.

And you forgot to pull the quote where the only response was an eye roll.

There was no clarification asked for. There was an attempt to put works into my mouth “Are you saying......”. What I was saying is there in black and white, it’s not Snapchat, it doesn’t disappear, it’s still there now.

~Rebel~

owlbethere wrote: »

Why are some people here marching in Ireland for the American systematic failures when we had a lot of systematic failures here in Ireland and not a budge out of people. What happened to Morris McCabe. The man tried to speak out about abuse happening with the penalty point system and he was painted as a peado for his trouble. No body marched for that systematic failure of our state.

A better question than why didn’t they march for this instead of that, is why didn’t they march for this as well as that.

These things take organisation and enough publicity to let us all know it’s happening on a large scale. The BLM movement has international attention and social leaders on the subject here that went to the effort of putting a march together, and then used the hot-button aspect of it to get the word shared around. And clearly it worked, in that 1) people heard about it existing, and 2) it resonated just enough for some to head out for a day.

Did anyone do that for Morris McCabe? Did you? I mean, if there’s a subject of injustice you’re personally passionate about, nows the time to go do that work, and make it happen... it’s now fresh in people’s minds that this is a thing you can do, with a bit of existing momentum behind it, so I say go for it!

ELM327

KiKi III wrote: »

Ummm you’re calling people morons while insisting I be civil. Tbh that’s the level of debate I’ve come to expect from you.

You can imply or baldly state that I haven’t a clue as much as you want; this is happening right now all across America.

In New York, LA and Minnesota among others, funding is being redirected from policing to communities, policies around violence against suspects are being immediately reviewed, incidents of police brutality are being taken more seriously, and in some cases the entire police department is being dismantled and rebuilt.

You’re right that I don’t have the knowledge or experience to implement any of the above (neither do you), but the people who do have that knowledge, experience and power are making those changes right now.

#sorrynotsorry it bothers you so much.

This is another part of the problem
"Defunding" the police is ridiculous.


How are better community services going to help if there's an armed intruder in your house. I hope that anyone who supports defunding the police is put on a black list and not supported if there is an emergency.

na1

An american basketball player JR Smith has violently attacked a white man:
https://twitter.com/TheyKnowInfo/status/1267210861522890754

and then making a racist statements:
https://twitter.com/TheyKnowInfo/status/1267227384710864898

Is he going to be prosecuted? Do #whitelivesmatter ?

Edgware

owlbethere wrote: »

Why are some people here marching in Ireland for the American systematic failures when we had a lot of systematic failures here in Ireland and not a budge out of people. What happened to Morris McCabe. The man tried to speak out about abuse happening with the penalty point system and he was painted as a peado for his trouble. No body marched for that systematic failure of our state.

And then people started spelling his name wrong to make things worse

salmocab

ELM327 wrote: »

This is another part of the problem
"Defunding" the police is ridiculous.


How are better community services going to help if there's an armed intruder in your house. I hope that anyone who supports defunding the police is put on a black list and not supported if there is an emergency.

It doesn't help if there is an armed intruder in your house nor is it meant to, it means using some of the funding to support things like drug addiction that the police currently have to deal with instead of real crime. Its actually a very good idea that leaves the police to do police work.

joe40

On the topic defunding or reduce funding for the the police. In the Floyd Situation if I remember correctly 3 police cars were used to arrest a man for charge of passing counterfeit notes.
Surely that is using a sledgehammer hammer to crack a nut.

There is that saying" if the only tool you have is a hammer every problem is a nail."

I think that is the issue, sometimes a strong police response is needed, but does every issue need multiple police cars with armed officers