George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

JJayoo

Cops should all strike for a week, see how that goes

ThewhiteJesus

i'm soooooooo bored of listening to privileged black sports people bang on about this,
they are hardly in the same position as a near down and out like George Floyd, the only views that made real sense to me are those of John Barnes.
He speaks for real ordinary people dealing with racism.

~Rebel~

ELM327 wrote: »

This is another part of the problem
"Defunding" the police is ridiculous.


How are better community services going to help if there's an armed intruder in your house. I hope that anyone who supports defunding the police is put on a black list and not supported if there is an emergency.

I think you’re missing what the intention is... it’s not “have no policing”, it’s “have diversified policing” - the solution to every policing problem is not a gun. Makes perfect sense to have a smaller number of traditionally armed police (though ideally with a lot more training, maybe even as much as we expect from our gardai over here - over 5 times more time training than their US colleagues), and then other divisions for other issues - most policing situations amount to conflict resolution without a crime actually being present, and deescalation.

Instead of solving an issue by being properly trained in it, if you’re coming in with a gun, a taser, and handcuffs it both scares the **** out of everyone, and ultimately costs a bloody fortune, as you’re now stuck taking someone back to the station and putting them up for the night, which is all very expensive when it’s one of the default solutions.

25% of the worlds prison population is in America.
1 in 4 black males will go through corrections in their lifetime - that is a vast, and vastly expensive - systemic failing.

If you do it right, proper policing can be significantly cheaper for states than the current model.

walshb

JJayoo wrote: »

Cops should all strike for a week, see how that goes

Yes, yes, yes

And let all the people come together and find out how the states can be policed like Carlsberg.....

In no time, these same people would be killing each other.....actually killing....

BorneTobyWilde

JJayoo wrote: »

Cops should all strike for a week, see how that goes

Ah but they love their fix of power, it would be like taking alcohol from a alcoholic for a week, they'd not last a day.

Silentcorner

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I think you’re missing what the intention is... it’s not “have no policing”, it’s “have diversified policing” - the solution to every policing problem is not a gun. Makes perfect sense to have a smaller number of traditionally armed police (though ideally with a lot more training, maybe even as much as we expect from our gardai over here - over 5 times more time training than their US colleagues), and then other divisions for other issues - most policing situations amount to conflict resolution without a crime actually being present, and deescalation.

Instead of solving an issue by being properly trained in it, if you’re coming in with a gun, a taser, and handcuffs it both scares the **** out of everyone, and ultimately costs a bloody fortune, as you’re now stuck taking someone back to the station and putting them up for the night, which is all very expensive when it’s one of the default solutions.

25% of the worlds prison population is in America.
1 in 4 black males will go through corrections in their lifetime - that is a vast, and vastly expensive - systemic failing.

If you do it right, proper policing can be significantly cheaper for states than the current model.

I think you are missing it's intention, deliberately I suspect.

Defunding the police, means at the very least cutting the policing budget.

Abolishing the police, means abolishing the police.

I'm getting sick and tired of these typically left twitter activists creating a slogan and then backing away from the slogans meaning when it harms them or when the slogan's idiotic meaning can no longer be defended, for instance #believeallwomen

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/opinion/tara-reade-believe-all-women.html

It's like dealing with children....

joe40

JJayoo wrote: »

Cops should all strike for a week, see how that goes

Right so, police killings are at a ridiculous level compared to any international comparison.
Police budgets are massive compared to other public sectors.

Calls for reform should be met by the police going on strike..

That's fine if you think there are no problems with policing in the US.
But it's disingenuous to acknowledge that there are problem with policing, and then agree with the idea that the police should go on strike.

A police man killed some one whole three colleagues stood watching keeping people back who wanted to help.

No way in the world that would happen in the UK for example. It just would not happen.

southstar

salmocab wrote: »

It doesn't help if there is an armed intruder in your house nor is it meant to, it means using some of the funding to support things like drug addiction that the police currently have to deal with instead of real crime. Its actually a very good idea that leaves the police to do police work.

Can't you just see a big gravy train of self interest build up on the back of this defunding nonsense,....almost like a scene lifted from Bonfire of the Vanities.Somebody spoke about well heeled/meaning liberals bleating platitudes from within their gated communities...gated communities of the mind more like...levels of needy groupthink that Facebook/Twitter facilitate and amplify.

ELM327

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I think you’re missing what the intention is... it’s not “have no policing”, it’s “have diversified policing” - the solution to every policing problem is not a gun. Makes perfect sense to have a smaller number of traditionally armed police (though ideally with a lot more training, maybe even as much as we expect from our gardai over here - over 5 times more time training than their US colleagues), and then other divisions for other issues - most policing situations amount to conflict resolution without a crime actually being present, and deescalation.

Instead of solving an issue by being properly trained in it, if you’re coming in with a gun, a taser, and handcuffs it both scares the **** out of everyone, and ultimately costs a bloody fortune, as you’re now stuck taking someone back to the station and putting them up for the night, which is all very expensive when it’s one of the default solutions.

25% of the worlds prison population is in America.
1 in 4 black males will go through corrections in their lifetime - that is a vast, and vastly expensive - systemic failing.

If you do it right, proper policing can be significantly cheaper for states than the current model.

The problem with both of those statistics is that , while they are fantastic/outlandish numbers, they are both agnostic of other external factors.



Socio economic problems, poor education system, less social welfare safety net which locks people in dead end minimum wage jobs etc. People therefore turn to crime. And these people are usually black as they live in poorer areas, like begats like (generationally) so a poor couple have poor children etc and it continues the cycle.

~Rebel~

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think you are missing it's intention, deliberately I suspect.

Defunding the police, means at the very least cutting the policing budget.

Abolishing the police, means abolishing the police.

I'm getting sick and tired of these typically left twitter activists creating a slogan and then backing away from the slogans meaning when it harms them or when the slogan's idiotic meaning can no longer be defended, for instance #believeallwomen

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/18/opinion/tara-reade-believe-all-women.html

It's like dealing with children....

It sounds like what I’m saying is the actual intention, and what you’re saying is you’re just personally annoyed that you feel people are using overzealous shorthand for things?

Incidentally both abolish and defund are potentially arguable as being literal and accurate descriptors too, in that if you do what was done on this very island 19 years ago, it would be quite accurate. The RUC was dissolved (scrapped, abolished, defunded) and replaced in its entirety by the PSNI, a new thing built from the ground up.

joe40

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I think you’re missing what the intention is... it’s not “have no policing”, it’s “have diversified policing” - the solution to every policing problem is not a gun. Makes perfect sense to have a smaller number of traditionally armed police (though ideally with a lot more training, maybe even as much as we expect from our gardai over here - over 5 times more time training than their US colleagues), and then other divisions for other issues - most policing situations amount to conflict resolution without a crime actually being present, and deescalation.

Instead of solving an issue by being properly trained in it, if you’re coming in with a gun, a taser, and handcuffs it both scares the **** out of everyone, and ultimately costs a bloody fortune, as you’re now stuck taking someone back to the station and putting them up for the night, which is all very expensive when it’s one of the default solutions.

25% of the worlds prison population is in America.
1 in 4 black males will go through corrections in their lifetime - that is a vast, and vastly expensive - systemic failing.

If you do it right, proper policing can be significantly cheaper for states than the current model.

Great post, makes a lot of sense.

I know we are in a different situation, we do have of issues in relation to law and order but nothing on the magnitude of the US.

The UK seems to have a better balance of armed response policing and community based policing.

BorneTobyWilde

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

For anyone saying police reform isn't needed in the US.

Guy worked for a pest control company and owned an air rifle, patrons in the hotel reported seeing a rifle. Police turn up, guy is obviously distressed and scared. Executed like a dog on the street.

*WARNING, THIS VIDEO SHOWS A MAN GETTING SHOT DEAD, NO BLOOD/GORE BUT STILL NSFW*

Got off scott free, and then retired, even though he just started, on medical grounds, '' that murder stressed me the fck out'' gets big pension per month.


Pays to kill eh .


If I was in that hallway, ie another cop, I'd have told that cop to shut the **** up! And walk up and cuff the guy on the ground.

BorneTobyWilde

And crawl is on all fours, that's a ****ing crawl

Walk on your knees towards me is what he should have said. Shot him dead from crawling on all fours, what an idiot.

~Rebel~

ELM327 wrote: »

The problem with both of those statistics is that , while they are fantastic/outlandish numbers, they are both agnostic of other external factors.



Socio economic problems, poor education system, less social welfare safety net which locks people in dead end minimum wage jobs etc. People therefore turn to crime. And these people are usually black as they live in poorer areas, like begats like (generationally) so a poor couple have poor children etc and it continues the cycle.

Absolutely - those are all part of the problem, and also a very firm part of the protest.

There’s no one thing you can fix, whole swathes of the way American society is run will need to change. It’s truly a deeply entrenched systemic problem.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1270185107345768448

joe40

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Got off scott free, and then retired, even though he just started, on medical grounds, '' that murder stressed me the fck out'' gets big pension per month.


Pays to kill eh .


If I was in that hallway, ie another cop, I'd have told that cop to shut the **** up! And walk up and cuff the guy on the ground.

No, it would appear that some think they should go on strike instead.

walshb

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

And crawl is on all fours, that's a ****ing crawl

Walk on your knees towards me is what he should have said. Shot him dead from crawling on all fours, what an idiot.

An idiot?

No, a disgusting cold blooded monster!

~Rebel~

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1270185107345768448

“Yet when they use appropriate force, they’re prosecuted.”

Ha! Well, given that only 1 out of every 100 police officers that murders someone is actually prosecuted, they’re doing alright for themselves!

Nobody has a problem with appropriate force - it’s the in-numerous incidents of inappropriate force that people tend to be upset about.

And if those cops being shouted at are good guys, they should be really actively pissed off at the violent and needlessly brutal cops that have brought this down on them.

joe40

ELM327 wrote: »

The problem with both of those statistics is that , while they are fantastic/outlandish numbers, they are both agnostic of other external factors.



Socio economic problems, poor education system, less social welfare safety net which locks people in dead end minimum wage jobs etc. People therefore turn to crime. And these people are usually black as they live in poorer areas, like begats like (generationally) so a poor couple have poor children etc and it continues the cycle.

Those things are all true, and fixing that is part of the long term improvement, that is needed.

The problem is many people think that all the socioeconomic problems facing the black community are simply their own fault and can only be solved from within their own communities.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1270185107345768448

Should of been arrested for inciting hatred.

shaveAbullock

Deleted User wrote: »

Should of been arrested for inciting hatred.

So he wasn't arrested just temporally detained?

~Rebel~

Even that video is a decent example of the problems with training - they just stand there, until suddenly they engage physically.

It’s like those are the two modes they have.

Not one of them opens their mouth to try to de-escalate - and you can’t blame them, because they haven’t been trained for that. But maybe some of them should be. What do you want in that situation - someone who will escalate it from words to a physical altercation every single time, or someone who can use their own words to take the heat and tension out of the situation?
(And again, when the former is the only weapon in your arsenal, it’s just reeeeaalllyyy expensive!)

Carfacemandog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/johncardillo/status/1270185107345768448

The guy recording that is an idiot, but so is anyone claiming that the appropriate response by law enforcement to hurtful words is to brutalise the person uttering them, which is what a cop would need to do there to be prosecuted.

CrankyHaus

https://www.ft.com/content/7f679362-0084-47d0-a67f-661da639e78c

Coronavirus fuels black America’s sense of injustice | Free to read
African-Americans have been especially vulnerable during the pandemic, laying bare disparities in health and employment

This is an excellent article, though it slightly glosses over African-American attitudes to health advice.

Manic Moran

Peregrinus wrote: »

You won't abolish the police; you'll still have a police force. But it will be smaller, and it will do police work. What's not to like?

The argument is for "fund social reform".

Where that money comes from is irrelevant. It can come from the police, it can come from increased taxes, it can come from a prohibition on politician junkets. The call is "defund the police" because people are angry at the police at this moment. From your chart, it doesn't seem like even doubling some categories of spending is going to be particularly difficult.

In the meantime, until those reforms happen and take effect, which will not be soon, the high police budgets will still be necessary.

Deebles McBeebles

Deleted User wrote: »

You really are a disgusting person. You are now trying to trivialize the stabbing of a child in cork by a black gang. While the child was bleeding on the ground unable to move he was stabbed three more times in the back while they recorded and laughed at him.

You should be banned for that comment alone.

Don't get sarcasm do you?

You have no idea what you're talking about, much like the rest of your little gang here. Your post is absolutely, 100% wrong but thats a recurring theme. But sure, lets go over all the old arguments from earlier in the thread and keep going around in circles. Its pointless debating with you and your ilk, skulls are too thick.

na1

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Got off scott free, and then retired, even though he just started, on medical grounds, '' that murder stressed me the fck out'' gets big pension per month.


Pays to kill eh .


If I was in that hallway, ie another cop, I'd have told that cop to shut the **** up! And walk up and cuff the guy on the ground.

The white male murdered by white police officer? Its OK, nothing to worry about.
#blacklivesmatter!

Peregrinus

Manic Moran wrote: »

The argument is for "fund social reform".

Where that money comes from is irrelevant. It can come from the police, it can come from increased taxes, it can come from a prohibition on politician junkets. The call is "defund the police" because people are angry at the police at this moment. From your chart, it doesn't seem like even doubling some categories of spending is going to be particularly difficult.

In the meantime, until those reforms happen and take effect, which will not be soon, the high police budgets will still be necessary.

No, they won't. The high police budges are being spent in ways that make the situation worse. Helicopters, armoured vehicle, massive force, paramilitary training and tactics - these don't just fail to solve socio-economic problems and crises; they tend to exacerbate them.

~Rebel~

na1 wrote: »

The white male murdered by white police officer? Its OK, nothing to worry about.
#blacklivesmatter!

Not at all sure what your point is?

Black people are hit disproportionately hard by a dysfunctional police, but the police are not only dysfunctional for Black people...

Paddygreen

The time is ripe for white people to seek forgiveness. I am in the city center at the moment doing some protest performance art with my homies and every time we see a black person we apologise profusely for the sins of our toxic white forefathers, I should have put a belt on in hindsight and my durag keeps falling off ( doing a bit of breakdancing for justice) I am so ashamed but content in the knowledge that I am on a quest for atonement.