George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

Cupatae

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I find it’s actually only the pro-cop folks that are making absurdist overstatements like this, while pro blm folks have generally been more nuanced... a huuuge part of the problem is that black communities are poorer, with fewer opportunities, and so more likely to end up involved in crime. As well as the systemic problems Black folks have to deal with in the here and now, these are things that have to be tackled so the next generations have a better fairer chance.

America is reeeaallyy bad at that though. I’ve personally seen it in action with the homelessness in LA, where on top of not dealing with the current homeless crisis, they are also not providing the necessary social care to the people who will become homeless tomorrow. If they did that, and at least stopped the numbers from spiralling, it would be a huge help, and save an absolute bloody fortune. But alas, there’s been little sign of it over the past 8 years I’ve lived there. There have at least been murmurings of such more recently, but I’ll not hold my breath...

The pro BLM are making plenty of absurd arguments on here.. all black people are innocent and any struggles they have are someone or something elses fault is the running mantra at the min.

I mean someone has to add some bit of balance to the discussion

We have plenty overstating the plight of the black community aswell to the point of being ridiculous... But what ever argument you could make for the states the BLM protests in the UK and Ireland are an absolute joke.

southstar

Overheal wrote: »

I don’t think there’s a person on this thread that hasn’t acknowledged and already read about his past.

It was what, 7 years ago? And he served his time for this, AND, police were arresting him on suspicion of a NON-violent crime.

Even if he had cut open the woman with a steakknife and ate the fetus like a roasted quail right after skull****ing it, it doesn’t explain nor does it justify what we saw for 8 minutes and 46 seconds, 7 years later, in reference to a SUSPECT counterfeit $20 note.

No but it seems that poverty is routinely used to explain away /excuse the types and levels of criminality.in these communities ...and maybe not without merit..but when police screw up in dealing with it ..it seems that suddenly the criminals now acquire a racial identity and the
police an ulterior motive..ie racism....all seems too convenient.The police forces and local govt in most US urban centres generally have high racial participation at all levels..though It seems that the macho militaristic element of policing communities certainly needs to be reformed

Foxtrol

walshb wrote: »

What was wrong with the clip?

Did the black officer not do his job? Was he exhibiting police brutality, or did he need to do as he did to restrain that very large man, who did lash out?

Maybe the cop saw and felt and heard that this man was a threat....?

Absolutely no sign of deescalation from any officer. If the guy wanted to hurt the cops he had several opportunities but didn't.

Bolded is the exact problem. The hiring and training of cops is so bad that a not insignificant number see threats everywhere and use it as an excuse to escalate situations and the current laws in many states give them cover.

KiKi III

walshb wrote: »

What was wrong with the clip?

Did the black officer not do his job? Was he exhibiting police brutality, or did he need to do as he did to restrain that very large man, who did lash out?

Maybe the cop saw and felt and heard that this man was a threat....?

One of the major problems with policing in the US is that officers feel justified in using lethal force if they “feel” they are in danger whether that feeling is based in reality or not.

Perhaps they felt in danger in Brianna Taylor’s apartment but they were not. They started shooting within 3 seconds because they allowed their fear to get the better of them and acted rashly instead of calmly assessing the situation.

They put their feelings ahead of her life.

She was a paramedic.

Edgware

southstar wrote: »

No but it seems that poverty is routinely used to explain away /excuse the types and levels of criminality.in these communities ...and maybe not without merit..but when police screw up in dealing with it ..it seems that suddenly the criminals now acquire a racial identity and the
police an ulterior motive..ie racism....all seems too convenient.The police forces and local govt in most US urban centres generally have high racial participation at all levels..though It seems that the macho militaristic element of policing communities certainly needs to be reformed

Can't someone else do it?

Overheal

Cupatae wrote: »

The pro BLM are making plenty of absurd arguments on here.. all black people are innocent and any struggles they have are someone or something elses fault is the running mantra at the min.

I mean someone has to add some bit of balance to the discussion

We have plenty overstating the plight of the black community aswell to the point of being ridiculous... But what ever argument you could make for the states the BLM protests in the UK and Ireland are an absolute joke.

I’m not sure which thread you are reading? Who said anything of the sort

KiKi III

The whole idea that George Floyd’s past somehow justifies his murder suggests that posters on here think law enforcement only need to act inside the law when they are dealing with “good people”.

Maybe George Floyd wasn’t a good person. Maybe he was, and turned his life around after serving his time.

It really doesn’t matter.

He had civil rights either way. He should have been arrested, brought to the station, charged if they had enough evidence and gone to court. That’s how the system is meant to work regardless of who you are.

Deebles McBeebles

Cupatae wrote: »

The pro BLM are making plenty of absurd arguments on here.. all black people are innocent and any struggles they have are someone or something elses fault is the running mantra at the min.

Who said that at any point in this thread?

~Rebel~

joe40 wrote: »

Why does it not happen here, UK Canada, Australia or any European country to anywhere near the same extent.

I never went as far as saying police are all corrupt but there definitely seems to be a mentality or ethos of extreme violence with very little accountability.

That needs to change. If BLM acts as a catalyst for that change then that has to be a good thing.

If these protests result in reforms that ultimately save lives I'm all for that. Big "if" I know but reform has to happen.

And the positive is that these departments aren’t federal (as that other lad seemed to think earlier), or even statewide.., they’re local county and municipality PD’s, which makes change and reform/rebuild a whole lot easier and less cumbersome.

I’ve been using the example of the RUC dissolving to be replaced by the PSNI because it’s a great example of total police reform right on our own doorstep, but it’s been done over there too. Camden’s police department presided over some of the country’s worst crime statistics, until 7 years ago, when they were dissolved, and replaced by an entirely new PD that focused more on building social ties. And now their crime rate is less than half what it used to be.

Every county and municipality is different, and their needs will be different, so there’s no one correct reformation approach. I’m sure plenty of existing ones are just fine as they are. But their local scale means change can actually happen.

And looking at scale, the PSNI successfully polices a particularly tricky area, with a population of just under 2 million, off a budget of 1bn. There are only a handful of PD’s that work on that scale, so it’s a good reference for what can be done. And Camden is a great reference for counties with 100,000 population or less (which is most of them across the country).

walshb

Interesting hearing Eileen Dunne correcting herself when speaking about Floyd’s funeral today. American she said, and then immediately African American.

Foxtrol

Overheal wrote: »

In fact most Americans everyday on social media discuss “inner city violence.” Amazing that I never see Fox News do a Sunday documentary piece on it either, you know? :rolleyes:

There were probably also murders in Birmingham, or Colorado Springs. But nobody ever talks about that? Conspiracy!

Or could it be that people absorb that through local news? It is rare to read or hear people discuss murders in my town or county, and sure it happens. I think Irish people misconstrue the scope of Gun violence in the United States. While I could appreciate that if someone was shot dead in Ennis it would be the talk of the region, here in the US it’s any other night and it’s across town with scant public details anyway. The electorate is more interested when a police officer - the institution that’s supposed to solve and help prevent said murders - appears to be abusing his authority to murder someone in custody.

States with highest homicide rate per capita - Louisiana, Missouri, and Alaska.

I've lost count of the times posters with a specific agenda bring up Chicago.

Deebles McBeebles

Cupatae wrote: »

Nah you can't do that you can only make generalization s when it is benifical to the BLM and the snowflakes that follow it's agenda.

Cops = Bad Guys
Black Community = all victims

Again, where are you getting that from? I did enjoy the use of the word 'snowflake' though, thanks for that.

walshb

I despise Trump, but his calling out the man who fell over is what I thought when looking at the clip..

Reminded me of the referee that Paolo Dicanio pushed years ago..

He ended up badly injured, but the cop barely touched him in the actual clip..

joe40

Cupatae wrote: »

The pro BLM are making plenty of absurd arguments on here.. all black people are innocent and any struggles they have are someone or something elses fault is the running mantra at the min.

I mean someone has to add some bit of balance to the discussion

We have plenty overstating the plight of the black community aswell to the point of being ridiculous... But what ever argument you could make for the states the BLM protests in the UK and Ireland are an absolute joke.

I haven't heard anyone say all black people are innocent. I have seen plenty of people point out the stark inequality that exists in the US that disproportionately affects black.

Solutions are complex, I agree but some posters like to imply that the problem are all due to the black communities themselves.

Not sure if that is your position maybe you can let us know.

Most people have acknowledged that not all police are bad but far too many police killings are taking place.

If that view makes me a snowflake in your world then so be it.

Foxtrol

walshb wrote: »

Interesting hearing Eileen Dunne correcting herself when speaking about Floyd’s funeral today. American she said, and then immediately African American.

Interesting that you noticed this and felt the need to post it here. Why?

Overheal

southstar wrote: »

No but it seems that poverty is routinely used to explain away /excuse the types and levels of criminality.in these communities ...and maybe not without merit..but when police screw up in dealing with it ..it seems that suddenly the criminals now acquire a racial identity and the
police an ulterior motive..ie racism....all seems too convenient.The police forces and local govt in most US urban centres generally have high racial participation at all levels..though It seems that the macho militaristic element of policing communities certainly needs to be reformed

I agree with all of that. Ghettification (word?) and gentrification etc. are part of it but the full picture is far more nuanced. There certainly is an element of revenge and resentment - Malcom X was greatly influenced by all that. But there is also some messed up things that have happened, like the massacre at Tulsa, like the Tuskegee Experiments, which I haven’t seen mentioned yet, etc. which are events that did not happen in a vacuum.

walshb

Foxtrol wrote: »

Interesting that you noticed this and felt the need to post it here. Why?

Just noticed it, and thought it stood out.

Are you offended or something that I posted it..?

zpehtsfd

KiKi III wrote: »

The whole idea that George Floyd’s past somehow justifies his murder suggests that posters on here think law enforcement only need to act inside the law when they are dealing with “good people”.

Maybe George Floyd wasn’t a good person. Maybe he was, and turned his life around after serving his time.

It really doesn’t matter.

He had civil rights either way. He should have been arrested, brought to the station, charged if they had enough evidence and gone to court. That’s how the system is meant to work regardless of who you are.

You are actually unsure as to whether George Floyd was a good person or not? Seriously? What sort of father does drugs and steals? Whatever about his past offences. That is some BHL nonsense.

KiKi III

zpehtsfd wrote: »

You are actually unsure as to whether George Floyd was a good person or not? Seriously? What sort of father does drugs and steals? Whatever about his past offences. That is some BHL nonsense.

I’m not making a judgement on his character one way or the other, because it’s not relevant. That was my whole point. “Good” people and “bad” people all have rights.

Lots of people have pointed out that Dylan Roof who had committed a mass shooting in Charleston was taken to Burger King.

There has to be a level playing field for how suspects are treated. Floyd was treated far too violently, Roof was treated far too gently.

Cupatae

Too many of ye to reply to but ive seen ye offer up page after page of excuses for the black community but never once have I seen ye mention anything negative or attach any sort of responsibility to the black community for there struggles , not once.. to say that some of ye are completely biased would be an absolute understatement

No race is that squeeky clean or that exempt of blame for there struggles... But reading the stuff being posted I'm surprised every man woman and child in the black community isn't sainted at this stage.

As I said before the current mantra is it's always someone else's fault everyone else's but our own!

There's no balance in this discussion what so ever it's all one way traffic vs the cops , the white man , the system ECT ECT

KiKi III

Cupatae wrote: »

Too many of ye to reply to but ive seen ye offer up page after page of excuses for the black community but never once have I seen ye mention anything negative or attach any sort of responsibility to the black community for there struggles , not once.. to say that some of ye are completely biased would be an absolute understatement

No race is that squeeky clean or that exempt of blame for there struggles... But reading the stuff being posted I'm surprised every man woman and child in the black community isn't sainted at this stage.

As I said before the current mantra is it's always someone else's fault everyone else's but our own!

There's no balance in this discussion what so ever it's all one way traffic vs the cops , the white man , the system ECT ECT

And you’ve been just as one-sided denying that racism exists and attempting to
exonerate cops no matter how despicably they have behaved.

Clarence Boddiker

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1270406312900227080

Cupatae

zpehtsfd wrote: »

You are actually unsure as to whether George Floyd was a good person or not? Seriously? What sort of father does drugs and steals? Whatever about his past offences. That is some BHL nonsense.

There's actually a debate over whether he was bad or not.. that's where this thread is, some people are on the fence about someone who held a gun to a pregnant womans belly in order to rob her with 5 of his buddies is good or bad, some have even offered a defense that he didn't know he d a forged note.. away with the birds some people are, bless the innocences

ricero

Saw that the tv show Little Britain has been pulled on netflix and bbc iplayer due to blackface scenes. The world is gone mad and is far too soft and serious. I can only imagine how bad things will be in 20 years from now.

I wonder if the same would be done for the film White Chicks.

Cupatae

KiKi III wrote: »

And you’ve been just as one-sided denying that racism exists and attempting to
exonerate cops no matter how despicably they have behaved.

No I offered up fairness that black people to some degree need to take responsibility for there own actions in order to gain the change they want I'm sorry I don't buy into the sympathy or blaming everyone but themselves ,

Some people want to twist and attack that point of view then good for them

Foxtrol

walshb wrote: »

Just noticed it, and thought it stood out.

Are you offended or something that I posted it..?

Not offended at all, just very intrigued at the mindset of anyone feeling that stood out in any way.

I would find it just as weird if someone came on a thread and highlighted how RTE are doing a story about and Irish American and they corrected themselves when they initially just said American.

George Floyd was a ****ing scumbag. Did he deserve to die the way he did? No way. Am I glad he is dead? Not at all. And I sad that he is dead. No.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RealJamesWoods/status/1270406312900227080

That’s scary.

How are those peaceful protests going... it’s time to get serious with these scumbags. Trump was dead right two weeks ago.

2u2me

Overheal wrote: »

No and I don’t intend to. It’s fiction with tropes that should not be influencing anyone’s politics about policing. Might as well point to 24 as your evidence for why torture is okay: it’s garbage. Entertainment, yes. But as information it is garbage.

Apples and oranges. The wire is the greatest work of fiction to come out of the US in decades. It goes in depth about why we see such racial disparities, I even posted a video of Simon speaking with Obama about it earlier.

That you haven't seen it is a shame, a shame only equalled by people not reading Twain or Steinbeck.

The Wire is lauded for its literary themes, its uncommonly accurate exploration of society and politics, and its realistic portrayal of urban life. Although during its original run the series received only average ratings and never won any major television awards, it is now widely regarded as one of the greatest television shows of all time.

Source

The Wire is often referred to as "the televisual equivalent of a novel", partly because that sounds flouncy and impressive, but mainly because it's structured like one. Think of each episode as a chapter in a book. It's important to bear this in mind because years of TV watching will have conditioned you into expecting a neat, processed conclusion at the end of any given programme. This first instalment is merely putting characters and themes in place for the rest of the season. The show is a textbook "slow burner" - don't expect to have your world altered by a single chapter.-Charlie Brooker

Source

In a December 2006 Washington Post article, local African-American students said that the show had "hit a nerve" with the black community and that they themselves knew real-life counterparts of many of the characters. The article expressed great sadness at the toll drugs and violence are taking on the black community

~Rebel~

Cupatae wrote: »

There's actually a debate over whether he was bad or not.. that's where this thread is, some people are on the fence about someone who held a gun to a pregnant womans belly in order to rob her with 5 of his buddies is good or bad, some have even offered a defense that he didn't know he d a forged note.. away with the birds some people are, bless the innocences

Actually no, that debate is not happening. That person entirely and absolutely misunderstood the post they were replying too - so much so that I have to wonder if it was intentional.

So no. That is very actively not a discussion that is taking place. But you’ve been reading, so you know that too.