George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

yourdeadwright

So turns out the 75 year old Martin Gugino is a long time radical protester that has been arrested over 300 times and 82 times for inciting ,

Yes he did not deserve to get his head split open , but it was an unfortunate accident that occurred when the police pushed him away ,


"Martin Gugino is a 75-year-old professional agitator and Antifa provocateur… On Friday Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown admitted Gugino was a professional ‘agitator’ who tried to work up the crowd and had been asked to leave the area ‘numerous’ times.”

“During his effort Gugino was attempting to capture the radio communications signature of Buffalo police officers.”

hetuzozaho

hetuzozaho wrote: »

That's what kicked what?

I was just saying we are allowed watch gone with the wind. And we'll be able to watch it on hbo again too when they put it back up.

Kicked the idea that it was being banned elsewhere too. And yes, i expect it'll be put back up soon... just a good example of virtue signalling going badly wrong.

Peregrinus

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So turns out the 75 year old Martin Gugino is a long time radical protester that has been arrested over 300 times and 82 times for inciting ,

Yes he did not deserve to get his head split open , but it was an unfortunate accident that occurred when the police pushed him away ,


"Martin Gugino is a 75-year-old professional agitator and Antifa provocateur… On Friday Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown admitted Gugino was a professional ‘agitator’ who tried to work up the crowd and had been asked to leave the area ‘numerous’ times.”

“During his effort Gugino was attempting to capture the radio communications signature of Buffalo police officers.”

You've put the claim that Gugino is a "professional agitator and Antifa provocateur" in inverted commas; you'er obviously quoting somebody. But you don't tell us who you're quoting.

At the same time you obviously accept the claim as true yourself, so you obviously regard this person as reliable and creditworthy.

So who is it? If you want us to accept the claim, you'll have to give us some reason to.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Apologies if it was posted already..

"Thomas Keirnan Lane, one of the four former Minneapolis police officers charged in the alleged murder of George Floyd, is out of jail. Hennepin County records show that Lane bonded out Wednesday afternoon."

"Lane was hired by the department in February 2019. His attorney, Earl Gray, has said Lane had only been on active duty for four days as of the incident. Because of that, Gray argued, it was “unreasonable” to expect Lane to attempt to remove Chauvin’s leg from Floyd’s neck. The lawyer also asserted that Lane asked Chauvin if Floyd should be rolled over and that Lane tried to perform CPR on Floyd in the ambulance.

“What was my client supposed to do but follow what his training officer said?” Gray said. “Is that aiding and abetting a crime?”

"Minneapolis police policies require “every sworn employee present at any scene where physical force is being applied to either stop or attempt to stop another sworn employee when force is being inappropriately applied or is no longer required.”

https://lawandcrime.com/george-floyd-death/thomas-lane-one-of-four-ex-cops-charged-in-george-floyds-death-is-out-of-jail/?utm_source=mostpopular

Christy42

yourdeadwright wrote: »

So turns out the 75 year old Martin Gugino is a long time radical protester that has been arrested over 300 times and 82 times for inciting ,

Yes he did not deserve to get his head split open , but it was an unfortunate accident that occurred when the police pushed him away ,


"Martin Gugino is a 75-year-old professional agitator and Antifa provocateur… On Friday Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown admitted Gugino was a professional ‘agitator’ who tried to work up the crowd and had been asked to leave the area ‘numerous’ times.”

“During his effort Gugino was attempting to capture the radio communications signature of Buffalo police officers.”

Arrest him, charge him and prove it in a court of law. Why were a mass of police officers unable to arrest a 75 year old man? Is it a lack of competence or a lack of training?

I find it amusing how many stories come up to defend the police here. First he jumped on the ground. Right that didn't stick. Next up is he was reaching for a police firearm. Nope. Emmm. Hacking radio signals is next it seems.

Amusingly was keeps getting dodged is why they didn't just arrest the man if he was so terrible.

@perenginus: the post mentions the Buffalo mayor Byron Brown as the speaker.

MeMen2_MoRi_

hetuzozaho wrote: »

So much misinformation these days. People are allowed to watch gone with the wind.

There's also a thread for it elsewhere.

ThunbergsAreGo

Peregrinus wrote: »

Dunno about Seattle, but I'd consider it progress if people didn't uncritically accept as true overblown stuff that they read in pseudonymous comments to posts on pseudonymous twitter accounts.

This goes both ways to be fair (and I agree with you)

Given the discussion on the manifesto was (rightly it seems) closed down, can anyone tell me exactly what the protesters/rioters want?

Silentcorner

Christy42 wrote: »

Arrest him, charge him and prove it in a court of law. Why were a mass of police officers unable to arrest a 75 year old man? Is it a lack of competence or a lack of training?

I find it amusing how many stories come up to defend the police here. First he jumped on the ground. Right that didn't stick. Next up is he was reaching for a police firearm. Nope. Emmm. Hacking radio signals is next it seems.

Amusingly was keeps getting dodged is why they didn't just arrest the man if he was so terrible.

I don't know much about how they train riot police, but they don't arrest...standing in front of a moving riot police unit is one of the dumbest thing an innocent person can do.

ohnonotgmail

Silentcorner wrote: »

I don't know much about how they train riot police, but they don't arrest...standing in front of a moving riot police unit is one of the dumbest thing an innocent person can do.

there was no riot in progress.

Peregrinus

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

This goes both ways to be fair (and I agree with you)

Given the discussion on the manifesto was (rightly it seems) closed down, can anyone tell me exactly what the protesters/rioters want?

Can anyone tell me exactly what those who oppose the protest want?

In both camps, different people will want different things, and many of them may not have articulated in detail what they want, even to themselves. It;'s entirely reasonable to find a particular state of affairs thoroughly objectionable and in urgent need of change, and it's not invalid to point this out before you have a fully developed plan for an alternative state of affairs. It's also reasonable to point out that it's not the protestors job to develop and roll out just policing practices and methods; it's the government's job, and it's perfectly reasoanable to protest that the government isn't doing its job.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Silentcorner wrote: »

I don't know much about how they train riot police, but they don't arrest...standing in front of a moving riot police unit is one of the dumbest thing an innocent person can do.

They arrested a guy within seconds of pushing the guy out of the way?

osarusan

yourdeadwright wrote: »

"Martin Gugino is a 75-year-old professional agitator and Antifa provocateur… On Friday Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown admitted Gugino was a professional ‘agitator’ who tried to work up the crowd and had been asked to leave the area ‘numerous’ times.”

The word 'agitator' was used by the mayor to describe a different incident and person named Myles Carter:

Reporter: This [the Martin Gugino incident] wasn’t the only incident that happened this week. Monday night, Myles Carter was on Bailey Avenue protesting. He was 15, 20 yards away from a police line with his back and hands up to the police, out of nowhere seemingly they rushed him, arrested him and charged him with two misdemeanors. … Why not the response Monday night, looking at the officers, temporarily suspending them and having an internal investigation there? I mean, the tape was pretty clear. He wasn’t doing anything.


Mayor: Those were state police officers. Those were not Buffalo police officers. So obviously the city of Buffalo does not have the ability to take action against state police officers. But what we were informed of is that that individual was an agitator. He was trying to spark up the crowd of people, again, that was a curfew violation. […] And according to what has been reported to me, that individual was a key and major instigator of people engaging in those kinds of activities.

Snope has dissected the whole thing here, laid out all the facts and dismantled the conspiracy:
https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/09/trump-gugino-tweet/

Fairly typical bit of 'fake news' - manipulate a quote, throw in a bit of subterfuge, release it, let the gullible swallow it whole. It's true until somebody proves otherwise. Only difference is the f**king president joining in.

yourdeadwright

Christy42 wrote: »

Arrest him, charge him and prove it in a court of law. Why were a mass of police officers unable to arrest a 75 year old man? Is it a lack of competence or a lack of training?

I find it amusing how many stories come up to defend the police here. First he jumped on the ground. Right that didn't stick. Next up is he was reaching for a police firearm. Nope. Emmm. Hacking radio signals is next it seems.

Amusingly was keeps getting dodged is why they didn't just arrest the man if he was so terrible.

Regardless if he radio hacked or not he didn't move off when asked the police pushed him away and he feel over , it was a freak accident that happened to a man who shouldn't have been where he was,

They didn't arrest him as he had the right of assembly but the police have the right to move a protestor to a place they deem safer or less problematic,

Its been blow out of proportion by both side, it was an unfortunate accident and the man was in the wrong to for not moving off,

Silentcorner

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

They arrested a guy within seconds of pushing the guy out of the way?

Well then, maybe I am wrong.

All I know, and I have experienced it, when you see the riot police and you are innocent, get out of there.

Peregrinus

Christy42 wrote: »

@perenginus: the post mentions the Buffalo mayor Byron Brown as the speaker.

As I read the post, someone else [unnamed] is saying that Gugino is a "professional agitator and Antifa provocateur", and is citing Brown in support of the claim. But the only word attributed to Brown is "agitator" (which is not news; Gugino is a long-standing member of the Catholic Worker movement). Brown, apparently, says nothing about him being "professional" and doesn't mention Antifa at all. Someone else is accusing Gugino here and yourdeadwright, the little tease, doesn't want to tell us who it was.

yourdeadwright

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well then, maybe I am wrong.

All I know, and I have experienced it, when you see the riot police and you are innocent, get out of there.

I have to agree with you common sense would be to move as you are instructed

Again it was very unfortunate for the man to bang his head and I don't think anyone wanted that to happen ,

I certainly don't blame the police , its a very tuff gig remember there just normal people to ,

If you ask me its a situation no one wanted ,

Peregrinus

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well then, maybe I am wrong.

All I know, and I have experienced it, when you see the riot police and you are innocent, get out of there.

Because the riot police typically assault and injure innocent people, even before any riot kicks off?

That's kind of the problem, isn't it? You seem to be asserting the validity and necessity of the protests here.

Silentcorner

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well then, maybe I am wrong.

All I know, and I have experienced it, when you see the riot police and you are innocent, get out of there.

ahh well, that would be simple common sense.. but common sense isn't terribly popular these days. Instead, people should be encouraged to stick their faces directly in front of a police officer, removing any kind of personal space, and proclaim your independence to him.

It's about setting yourself up to be a martyr or victim. Egging the police on to do something, so that you can feel justified in your outrage.

hetuzozaho

Deleted User wrote: »

And yes, i expect it'll be put back up soon...

They said it will be back up. Basically people just don't read about things and get upset by a headline made to upset them as they are so desperate to be outraged, IMO

yourdeadwright

Peregrinus wrote: »

As I read the post, someone else [unnamed] is saying that Gugino is a "professional agitator and Antifa provocateur", and is citing Brown in support of the claim. But the only word attributed to Brown is "agitator" (which is not news; Gugino is a long-standing member of the Catholic Worker movement). Brown, apparently, says nothing about him being "professional" and doesn't mention Antifa at all. Someone else is accusing Gugino here and yourdeadwright, the little tease, doesn't want to tell us who it was.

I just posted the quote I was sent as a poster showed it was fudged
I'm not stupid enough to protest that if there is evidence to back it up ,

As I said I don't know the man and I don't know the police but I think its been blown out of proportion ,
The man shouldn't have been where he was and he also didn't deserve to get his head spilt open which is clear wasn't the intent of the police man who pushed him , It was an unfortunate incident ,

I don't think the police man should lose his job over it ,

MeMen2_MoRi_

Silentcorner wrote: »

Well then, maybe I am wrong.

All I know, and I have experienced it, when you see the riot police and you are innocent, get out of there.

You are wrong, no maybes about it.

The officers clearly chose the wrong actions, a person doing wrong (not clearing the area/obstruction of a police officer in their duty) should be arrested and charged. Their pushing of him has resulted in traumatic brain injury here, they should be held accountable.

hetuzozaho

hetuzozaho wrote: »

They said it will be back up. Basically people just don't read about things and get upset by a headline made to upset them as they are so desperate to be outraged, IMO

Not really. The original move to remove the film/movie was intended to keep it off the service. It was the actual protest/outrage that encouraged them withdraw their "gesture".

These kinds of virtue signalling should be challenged. And there should be some outrage.. I agree that many are blowing it way out of proportion.. but that's the nature of the game these days.

Timberrrrrrrr

[Deleted User] wrote: »

ahh well, that would be simple common sense.. but common sense isn't terribly popular these days. Instead, people should be encouraged to stick their faces directly in front of a police officer, removing any kind of personal space, and proclaim your independence to him.

It's about setting yourself up to be a martyr or victim. Egging the police on to do something, so that you can feel justified in your outrage.

I wonder why this lad wasnt pushed over?

hetuzozaho

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really. The original move to remove the film/movie was intended to keep it off the service. It was the actual protest/outrage that encouraged them withdraw their "gesture".

These kinds of virtue signalling should be challenged. And there should be some outrage.. I agree that many are blowing it way out of proportion.. but that's the nature of the game these days.

I disagree - people just didn't read the news correctly yesterday hence the introduction of the misinformation into this thread this morning.

Anyway as well as being false it's also off topic for this I guess. I'll take it to the appropriate thread

Peregrinus

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I just posted the quote I was sent as a poster showed it was fudged . . .

Well, who sent you the quote? And do you know where they got it from?

And, if you think it was fudged, why did you give the impression that you entirely accepted it as true? Or am I misreading you there?

On edit: Did a bit of googling to find if I could see who it was that made this claim. Turns out that it was made in an article on a website called "Conservative Treehouse" by someone writing under the pseudonym "sundance". And it seems from the fact-checking website Snopes that the claim is totally bogus - even the bit that says that Mayor Brown called him an "agitator" turns out to be untrue.

yourdeadwright

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

You are wrong, no maybes about it.

The officers clearly chose the wrong actions, a person doing wrong (not clearing the area/obstruction of a police officer in their duty) should be arrested and charged. Their pushing of him has resulted in traumatic brain injury here, they should be held accountable.

See its the little details that make a huge difference,

The police officer clearly wanted to respect his right to assembly so did not arrest him but at the same time wanted to move him to an area they deemed safer for the protest to occur (which they have the right to do)

He pushed him away to make him leave the area but unfortunately he fell over and cracked his head, that clearly wasn't the intent ,

If he had of tuned and walked away after the push no one would say there was any wrong doing, it was very unfortunate that he fell over,

Little details that change peoples view drastically again I for one don't think a police man should lose his job and living over it ,

Peregrinus

yourdeadwright wrote: »

See its the little details that make a huge difference,

The police officer clearly wanted to respect his right to assembly so did not arrest him but at the same time wanted to move him to an area they deemed safer for the protest to occur (which they have the right to do)

He pushed him away to make him leave the area but unfortunately he fell over and cracked his head, that clearly wasn't the intent ,

If he had of tuned and walked away after the push no one would say there was any wrong doing, it was very unfortunate that he fell over,

Little details that change peoples view drastically again I for one don't think a police man should lose his job and living over it ,

Nobody who has seen the video can possibly think that this is what was happening.

500+ businesses either burned down or damaged in Minneapolis. Destroyed by the BLM movement. They have destroyed businesses in their own communities, most of which will not reopen again. Who are they going to blame for that ?

Christy42

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Regardless if he radio hacked or not he didn't move off when asked the police pushed him away and he feel over , it was a freak accident that happened to a man who shouldn't have been where he was,

They didn't arrest him as he had the right of assembly but the police have the right to move a protestor to a place they deem safer or less problematic,

Its been blow out of proportion by both side, it was an unfortunate accident and the man was in the wrong to for not moving off,

The police arrested a CNN crew for being in the wrong place (incorrectly). If you have right of assembly then you can't be pushed out of the way either. No one at any point decided that these people have the right of assembly here and so to move them the powers that be should use violence to move them. That is not how this works.

This argument is beyond ridiculous. Say the man hadn't fallen he would have been all of 2 feet away still in front of where the riot police where marching. That is not out of the way. That is not how you move someone. At best it achieves literally nothing.

To whoever said riot police don't arrest. Yeah no. The police don't and shouldn't have sections whose only available response to criminal behaviour is violence.

yourdeadwright

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, who sent you the quote? And do you know where they got it from?

And, if you think it was fudged, why did you give the impression that you entirely accepted it as true? Or am I misreading you there?

On edit: Did a bit of googling to find if I could see who it was that made this claim. Turns out that it was made in an article on a website called "Conservative Treehouse" by someone writing under the pseudonym "sundance". And it seems from the fact-checking website Snopes that the claim is totally bogus - even the bit that says that Mayor Brown called him an "agitator" turns out to be untrue.

Are you for real none of your business who sent me the quote ,
If its wrong fair enough thats fine,

Doesn't really change my stance on it no matter who the man was,

He should have moved he didn't the cop pushed him to move he accidently and unfortunately fell over and hit his head, Terrible incident and no one involved intended it to happen , Police man certainly doesn't deserve to lose his job over it ,