George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

walshb

Overheal wrote: »

“Racism is everywhere duh

Except in the system. Yep no racism in the system”

Really, are you this deliberately obtuse in your reply..

Racism is everywhere....

That doesn’t mean it’s systemic in any particular body/organization etc..

You do know what systemic means here, as in what people are trying to claim and portray?

Hundreds thousands cops in the police force in America.

1 of them racist isn’t systemic, for example. Even 1000 of them isn’t

Systemic here is being portrayed as a whole body being corrupt and intentionally encouraging and condoning and supporting racism..This is utter nonsense.

Justin Credible Darts

~Rebel~ wrote: »

And yet only in the US do we see this consistent level of violence.

Honestly, i've actually gotta wonder why you're even talking about this... like, you don't even seem to have much understanding of the subject... why roll in so hard behind a position you don't understand?

This is a police force that last year killed 1099 people - over 40% of whom were unarmed. A few bad apples cannot achieve those numbers. This is a police force that account for 33% of all killings at the hands of a stranger Nationally. And it's a police force who thanks to Qualified Immunity, are almost impossible to prosecute.

This is also a police force that recieve less than 20% of the training the Irish Gardai receive, before being given a gun and sent out to patrol.

How can someone look at the reality of the situation, the statistics they manage to rack up, the insane numbers of sexual assaults committed by them, the default training that instead of de-escalation calls instead for total and complete physically subjugation, and not see how fucked it is. ESPECIALLY when there are millions of Americans marching in the streets every day telling you how fucked it is.

did you choose to ignore the part of my post that referred to countries ?
I was not referring solely to just the american police.


Did you choose to ignore it or simply not read that part due to your rush to reply and find fault ?

Some countries have worse police forces than others, no one denies that, but my point remains the police have a thankless job, and for the most part are good.

~Rebel~

walshb wrote: »

Really, are you this deliberately obtuse in your reply..

Racism is everywhere....

That doesn’t mean it’s systemic in any particular body/organization etc..

You do know what systemic means here, as in what people are trying to claim and portray?

Hundreds thousands cops in the police force in America.

1 of them racist isn’t systemic, for example. Even 1000 of them isn’t

Systemic here is being portrayed as a whole body being corrupt and intentionally encouraging and condoning and supporting racism..This utter nonsense.

Except that it is;

https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/46946_CH_3.pdf

https://www.vera.org/downloads/publications/for-the-record-unjust-burden-racial-disparities.pdf

https://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/images/press/docs/pdf/ASARaceCrime.pdf

~Rebel~

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

did you choose to ignore the part of my post that referred to countries ?
I was not referring solely to just the american police.


Did you choose to ignore it or simply not read that part due to your rush to reply and find fault ?

Some countries have worse police forces than others, no one denies that, but my point remains the police have a thankless job, and for the most part are good.

I don't know about other countries, so can't speak to them.

This conversation is about the US police. As you said, you were making your point about all countries - which includes the US. I'm taking you up on the point you raised in relation to the US, because that's what I know about. If you agree with my points, then perhaps your point becomes more accurate to say "policing is done well in countries outside of the US". Or if you wish to reinclude the US in your statement, you can argue the points I raised.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Really, are you this deliberately obtuse in your reply..

Racism is everywhere....

That doesn’t mean it’s systemic in any particular body/organization etc..

You do know what systemic means here, as in what people are trying to claim and portray?

I know what systemic means and I know the police system in the US is systemically racist. Even it’s origins are nestled in the Slave Patrols of a bygone era. For centuries one of the most significant roles of United States police was to keep slaves in check, and after that it was enforcing Jim Crow laws to the same effect, and then it was the war on drugs which saw much lighter penalties for drugs favored by whites.

I don’t know how anyone purports to show that the policing in the US is not systemically racist when there is so much rich and annotated history to the contrary.

walshb

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Except that it is;

https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/46946_CH_3.pdf

https://www.vera.org/downloads/publications/for-the-record-unjust-burden-racial-disparities.pdf

https://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/images/press/docs/pdf/ASARaceCrime.pdf

FFS, mate. It’s Saturday night and you’re hitting me with 80 pages of research..😅

Overheal

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

did you choose to ignore the part of my post that referred to countries ?
I was not referring solely to just the american police.


Did you choose to ignore it or simply not read that part due to your rush to reply and find fault ?

Some countries have worse police forces than others, no one denies that, but my point remains the police have a thankless job, and for the most part are good.

“Few bad cops, most of them good”

“Few bad protesters, the whole bunch is rotten”

Tell me how

walshb wrote: »

FFS, mate. It’s Saturday night and you’re hitting me with 80 pages of research..😅

Take a break, it'll still be there in the morning.

But might be as well off to stop posting until you have read some of it.

walshb

Overheal wrote: »

I know what systemic means and I know the police system in the US is systemically racist. Even it’s origins are nestled in the Slave Patrols of a bygone era. For centuries one of the most significant roles of United States police was to keep slaves in check, and after that it was enforcing Jim Crow laws to the same effect, and then it was the war on drugs which saw much lighter penalties for drugs favored by whites.

I don’t know how anyone purports to show that the policing in the US is not systemically racist when there is so much rich and annotated history to the contrary.

Hold on. Let’s talk about now...

I am not arguing that years ago the system had not got systemic racism..Racism that was tolerated, condoned and actually legal.

I am speaking about the here and now..

MeMen2_MoRi_

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

For real? So I could go out and commit a robbery, it just depends on what cop catches me, if he's having a good day he'll let me go on my way.

Assault of cop either by megaphone or a bump is a serious thing? Maybe he'll get double assault against him..

The "goon" is being arrested for the bump, your claim was assault with a megaphone, that I'd say was more serious for the ear drums then a bump in the back, wouldn't you think?

I'm saying he deserves what he got. If they are getting him for the bump then great, they're the cops and know more about it than me. It's either I tougher offence for which they can punish him harder or maybe it's actually the lighter offense and they are letting him off lightly.

Its beside the point. The guy is clown and personally I think he deserved a good hiding and has gotten off very lightly.

~Rebel~

walshb wrote: »

FFS, mate. It’s Saturday night and you’re hitting me with 80 pages of research..��

Totally agree, it's an absolute mountain of information! And there's an awful lot more than that freely available too - which is sort of the point really... there is a lot of really solid compelling evidence out there to support the argument. Which is why so many millions of Americans are protesting in the streets to try to change it.

Overheal

Tell me how wrote: »

Take a break, it'll still be there in the morning.

But might be as well off to stop posting until you have read some of it.

Or crack open a libation and watch some documentaries elsewhere. The 13th, on Netflix, is an information dense one.

Justin Credible Darts

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I don't know about other countries, so can't speak to them.

This conversation is about the US police. As you said, you were making your point about all countries - which includes the US. I'm taking you up on the point you raised in relation to the US, because that's what I know about.

since the police are being attacked in multiple countries, it is not solely just an american issue.




but since you just want to discuss the american police, my opinion is that the police force is still good.
There are far far more good than bad, the issue is the minority of cops that are bad, are protected by a few that are in charge at a higher level.


for example the guy that killed floyd, should have been off the force years ago, so not only do I blame that cop, I blame the person above him that allowed him to stay in the force.


That said the bad are still the minority

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm saying he deserves what he got. If they are getting him for the bump then great, they're the cops and know more about it than me. It's either I tougher offence for which they can punish him harder or maybe it's actually the lighter offense and they are letting him off lightly.

Its beside the point. The guy is clown and personally I think he deserved a good hiding and has gotten off very lightly.

This from the Donald Trump style of 'don't be too gentle' policing.

Kind of says where the conversation is at when someone thinks that a suitable response to having a loudspeaker in your ear is to physically assault the person.

What would you recommend for driving 10kph above the speed limit? 10 lashes maybe?

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm saying he deserves what he got. If they are getting him for the bump then great, they're the cops and know more about it than me. It's either I tougher offence for which they can punish him harder or maybe it's actually the lighter offense and they are letting him off lightly.

Its beside the point. The guy is clown and personally I think he deserved a good hiding and has gotten off very lightly.

All from a few seconds of a video, you know that person is a "clown" and deserved "a good hiding".

I hope you ain't in a position of power. Ridiculous!

Tell me how

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

since the police are being attacked in multiple countries, it is not solely just an american issue.




but since you just want to discuss the american police, my opinion is that the police force is still good.
There are far far more good than bad, the issue is the minority of cops that are bad, are protected by a few that are in charge at a higher level.


for example the guy that killed floyd, should have been off the force years ago, so not only do I blame that cop, I blame the person above him that allowed him to stay in the force.


That said the bad are still the minority

But he wasn't and that is why the protests are going on and supported world wide.

Tell me how

Tell me how wrote: »

This from the Donald Trump style of 'don't be too gentle' policing.

Kind of says where the conversation is at when someone thinks that a suitable response to having a loudspeaker in your ear is to physically assault the person.

What would you recommend for driving 10kph above the speed limit? 10 lashes maybe?

Shouting a megaphone in someone's ear is assault. That is the assault. Cop would be well within his rights to defend himself from some twat chasing him with a megaphone. And that is exactly what happened and the cops handled it very well.

peddlelies

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Except that it is;

https://www.sagepub.com/sites/default/files/upm-binaries/46946_CH_3.pdf

https://www.vera.org/downloads/publications/for-the-record-unjust-burden-racial-disparities.pdf

https://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/images/press/docs/pdf/ASARaceCrime.pdf

Have you read any of the links you're quoting? When you posted it the first time I read through the first one and it's not conclusive one way or the other.

MeMen2_MoRi_

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

All from a few seconds of a video, you know that person is a "clown" and deserved "a good hiding".

I hope you ain't in a position of power. Ridiculous!

Yes actually, it is very apparent from a few seconds of video.

walshb

Tell me how wrote: »

But he wasn't and that is why the protests are going on and supported world wide.

Just on Chauvin...

How much actual verified details have we on the complaints about him?

I didn’t think there was any real info in the public domain..?

walshb

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

All from a few seconds of a video, you know that person is a "clown" and deserved "a good hiding".

I hope you ain't in a position of power. Ridiculous!

Are you for real? Did you see the clown, and how he was antagonising police officers doing their job?

But I guess you have no issue with this. People should be allowed harass and antagonise cops all they like, and god forbid, the cops act, they are slated..

~Rebel~

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

since the police are being attacked in multiple countries, it is not solely just an american issue.




but since you just want to discuss the american police, my opinion is that the police force is still good.
There are far far more good than bad, the issue is the minority of cops that are bad, are protected by a few that are in charge at a higher level.


for example the guy that killed floyd, should have been off the force years ago, so not only do I blame that cop, I blame the person above him that allowed him to stay in the force.


That said the bad are still the minority

If you're serious, and want to be taken seriously, you're gonna have to give me something more than "I think that". You're going to have to give me good reasons for a "good police force" to kill over 400+ unarmed people last year. (And keep in mind, unarmed means not even a skrewdriver, or wrench - nothing. at all.). That's more than ALL OF THE PEOPLE the police in all of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and ALL of Europe killed over almost a decade. And we're only counting the unarmed ones in the US... so if you're saying that's good policing, you have to tell me why.

And when you think that if you live in America and are killed by a stranger - there's a 33% chance that you were killed by a police officer.

The figures are consistently mind blowing, and are completely out of whack with every other developed nation on earth by many many multiples. So if you want to include them in the list of "they're going grand", you need to address those figures, and say why that's ok.

Justin Credible Darts

Tell me how wrote: »

But he wasn't and that is why the protests are going on and supported world wide.

obviously.
And as I have stated numerous times, which has been conveniently ignored by others, I have no problem with people protesting.It is their right.


My issue has always been people who are using other peoples valid reasons to protest to undermine the issue to do stuff for their own agenda.

Violent protests are what I am against, as I am against destruction of property, looting setting fires, antagonizing the police etc..


I know if I were taking part in a peaceful protest, and it got nasty, I would leave long before the police told me to move.


Those staying ignoring police warnings, and accompanying the violent protesters are as guilty by association.

walshb

peddlelies wrote: »

Have you read any of the links you're quoting? When you posted it the first time I read through the first one and it's not conclusive one way or the other.

You’re a fooking lifesaver...you just gave me back my Sunday..

I’ll say it again, it is utter nonsense, as well as very dangerous to peddle the crap that there is systemic racism in the police force of the United States.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Hold on. Let’s talk about now...

I am not arguing that years ago the system had not got systemic racism..Racism that was tolerated, confined and actually legal.

I am speaking about the here and now..

Nobody can point to any systemic reforms in policing between the Then and the here and now that satisfy the question of whether police have transformed into a non-racist system.

It just hasn’t happened.

Even in the Clinton era the 1994 crime bill just made things worse. People were dubbed super criminals. The media warned of a crack baby epidemic. Mandatory minimum sentences without the possibility of parole were handed out for petty possession. There hasnt been systemic reform in the 21st century, either. Just the inclusion of bodycams and more forces looking toward non lethal options, banning chokeholds or properly training in taser use, etc. but nothing has been done about the war on drugs, even pot is still a schedule 1 narcotic. And the prison population is exploding out of control still, millions in prison, school-to-pipeline scandals with schools and cities getting kickbacks to send children to juvy for minor schooling misbehavior. Have you seen a school Resource Officer rip a student out of their desk and body slam them? Have you seen what’s happened at Rikers Island? The corrections officers sold drugs and shanks to inmates and held fight clubs. A lot of those detained weren’t even convicts they were pre-trial. Take example of Kalief Browder, a kid who was sent to Rikers that spent 3 years in jail without being convicted of a crime. He committed suicide after he got out. They destroyed him in there, and through the fight clubs turned him into a criminal whether he was convicted or not. It’s a fcuked up system and I can’t fathom how people can tell me the system is not a broken mess still.

~Rebel~

peddlelies wrote: »

Have you read any of the links you're quoting? When you posted it the first time I read through the first one and it's not conclusive one way or the other.

Yes, I did. There's plenty of papers that actively just say "there is systemic racism", but I purposefully choose papers that were particularly objective as I don't want to use anything that could be argued as having implicit bias.

The bit where you (really weirdly) stop your highlighting on the first line of the the Summary is a fairly damning statement imo, especially contained within a particularly objective study.

These papers also work well together, informing and elaborating on points across the trio.

Justin Credible Darts

~Rebel~ wrote: »

If you're serious, and want to be taken seriously, you're gonna have to give me something more than "I think that". You're going to have to give me good reasons for a "good police force" to kill over 400+ unarmed people last year. (And keep in mind, unarmed means not even a skrewdriver, or wrench - nothing. at all.). That's more than ALL OF THE PEOPLE the police in all of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and ALL of Europe killed over almost a decade. And we're only counting the unarmed ones in the US... so if you're saying that's good policing, you have to tell me why.

And when you think that if you live in America and are killed by a stranger - there's a 33% chance that you were killed by a police officer.

The figures are consistently mind blowing, and are completely out of whack with every other developed nation on earth by many many multiples. So if you want to include them in the list of "they're going grand", you need to address those figures, and say why that's ok.

I noticed you left out the part where this police force you speak off, kills more white people than black.


Strange how no one had an issue with that.
Guess white people , despite being a minority in the global sense, are not that worth getting upset over.

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes actually, it is very apparent from a few seconds of video.

Can I get you too point to where I can buy these rose tinted glasses you are wearing, maybe they'll increase my intelligence.

peddlelies

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Yes, I did. There's plenty of papers that actively just say "there is systemic racism", but I purposefully choose papers that were particularly objective as I don't want to use anything that could be argued as having implicit bias.

The bit where you (really weirdly) stop your highlighting on the first line of the the Summary is a fairly damning statement imo, especially contained within a particularly objective study.

Or maybe you just just googled "systemic racism study" and lumped a bunch of links together to try and look smart.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Are you for real? Did you see the clown, and how he was antagonising police officers doing their job?

But I guess you have no issue with this. People should be allowed harass and antagonise cops all they like, and god forbid, the cops act, they are slated..

Nobody accuses the queens royal guards of police brutality you know why?