George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

MeMen2_MoRi_

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Can I get you too point to where I can buy these rose tinted glasses you are wearing, maybe they'll increase my intelligence.

You could do with a boost.

~Rebel~

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I noticed you left out the part where this police force you speak off, kills more white people than black.


Strange how no one had an issue with that.
Guess white people , despite being a minority in the global sense, are not that worth getting upset over.

Nowhere in my points to you did I say anything at all about race - my argument was about bad policing full stop, for the entire country and everyone in it.

You said the police did a good job, I pointed out why they did a bad job - not just for black people, but for absolutely everyone. The figures are even worse when it comes to being black, but they're terrible for everyone. It's a bad police force.

(Also, we're talking about a distinct country here. The Black population in the US is 13%, while the white population is 72% )

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You could do with boost.

Nah it tastes like sh!te, I prefer red bull.

Overheal

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I noticed you left out the part where this police force you speak off, kills more white people than black.


Strange how no one had an issue with that.
Guess white people , despite being a minority in the global sense, are not that worth getting upset over.

A minority in a global sense? An amazing shift of goalposts.

If whites are 73% of the country then it would stand to reason 73% of those killed by police are white, to conclude that race is not a factor in policing.

The reality is when you factor all these demographics up, blacks are 2.5x more likely to be killed by police than whites.

https://www.statista.com/chart/21872/map-of-police-violence-against-black-americans/

peddlelies

Overheal wrote: »

A minority in a global sense? An amazing shift of goalposts.

If whites are 73% of the country then it would stand to reason 73% of those killed by police are white, to conclude that race is not a factor in policing.

The reality is when you factor all these demographics up, blacks are 2.5x more likely to be killed by police than whites.

https://www.statista.com/chart/21872/map-of-police-violence-against-black-americans/

Gee, I wonder why that is? There must be some logical explanation!

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

walshb

Overheal wrote: »

Nobody can point to any systemic reforms in policing between the Then and the here and now that satisfy the question of whether police have transformed into a non-racist system.

It just hasn’t happened.

Even in the Clinton era the 1994 crime bill just made things worse. People were dubbed super criminals. The media warned of a crack baby epidemic. Mandatory minimum sentences without the possibility of parole were handed out for petty possession. There hasnt been systemic reform in the 21st century, either. Just the inclusion of bodycams and more forces looking toward non lethal options, banning chokeholds or properly training in taser use, etc. but nothing has been done about the war on drugs, even pot is still a schedule 1 narcotic. And the prison population is exploding out of control still, millions in prison, school-to-pipeline scandals with schools and cities getting kickbacks to send children to juvy for minor schooling misbehavior. Have you seen a school Resource Officer rip a student out of their desk and body slam them? Have you seen what’s happened at Rikers Island? The corrections officers sold drugs and shanks to inmates and held fight clubs. A lot of those detained weren’t even convicts they were pre-trial. Take example of Kalief Browder, a kid who was sent to Rikers that spent 3 years in jail without being convicted of a crime. He committed suicide after he got out. They destroyed him in there, and through the fight clubs turned him into a criminal whether he was convicted or not. It’s a fcuked up system and I can’t fathom how people can tell me the system is not a broken mess still.

Ok,

All this...were certain colors only subject to all this? Or were the laws of the U.S. applied equally to all?

Have I missed something

Systemic racism is the claim....

Racism exists. We all get this, and know this. Racism as a whole....ALL colors suffering and all guilty..

But systemic racism in the police force now? It exists? Against ALL colors?

walshb

Overheal wrote: »

Nobody accuses the queens royal guards of police brutality you know why?

That’s just a really absurd analogy!

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

A minority in a global sense? An amazing shift of goalposts.

If whites are 73% of the country then it would stand to reason 73% of those killed by police are white, to conclude that race is not a factor in policing.

The reality is when you factor all these demographics up, blacks are 2.5x more likely to be killed by police than whites.

https://www.statista.com/chart/21872/map-of-police-violence-against-black-americans/

What's the statistics for the percentage of crimes committed by black people?

When you spend night after night policing black people, witnessing crime after crime, eventually you're going to be biased that way. See a suspicious black person? Makes perfect sense to question it same would apply to a white person of a certain demeanour. So called white trash or red necks.

~Rebel~

walshb wrote: »

You’re a fooking lifesaver...you just gave me back my Sunday..

I’ll say it again, it is utter nonsense, as well as very dangerous to peddle the crap that there is systemic racism in the police force of the United States.

If you just want a snippet from one based around the criminal justice system, instead of reading the whole thing;

This brief presents an overview of the ways in which America’s history of racism and oppression continues to manifest in the criminal justice system, and a summary of research demon- strating how the system perpetuates the disparate treatment of black people. The evidence presented here helps account for the hugely disproportionate impact of mass incarceration on millions of black people, their families, and their communi- ties. This brief explains that:

› Discriminatory criminal justice policies and practices have historically and unjustifiably targeted black people since the Reconstruction Era, including Black Codes, va- grancy laws, and convict leasing, all of which were used to continue post-slavery control over newly-freed people.

› This discrimination continues today in often less overt ways, including through disparity in the enforcement of seemingly race-neutral laws. For example, while rates of drug use are similar across racial and ethnic groups, black people are arrested and sentenced on drug charges at much higher rates than white people.

› Bias by decision makers at all stages of the justice process disadvantages black people. Studies have found that they are more likely to be stopped by the police, detained pretrial, charged with more serious crimes, and sentenced more harshly than white people.

› Living in poor communities exposes people to risk factors for both offending and arrest, and a history of structural racism and inequality of opportunity means that black people are more likely to be living in such conditions of concentrated poverty.
In addition to the clear injustice of a criminal justice system that disproportionately impacts black people, maintaining these racial disparities has a high cost for individuals, families, and communities. At the individual level, a criminal conviction has a negative impact on both employability and access to housing and public services. At the community level, dispropor- tionately incarcerating people from poor communities removes economic resources and drives cycles of poverty and justice system involvement, making criminal justice contact the norm in the lives of a growing number of black Americans.


https://www.vera.org/downloads/publications/for-the-record-unjust-burden-racial-disparities.pdf

(The rest of the paper goes into each in detail)

walshb

Rebel, I just got my Sunday back......give a lad a break.😜

joe40

walshb wrote: »

Really, are you this deliberately obtuse in your reply..

Racism is everywhere....

That doesn’t mean it’s systemic in any particular body/organization etc..

You do know what systemic means here, as in what people are trying to claim and portray?

Hundreds thousands cops in the police force in America.

1 of them racist isn’t systemic, for example. Even 1000 of them isn’t

Systemic here is being portrayed as a whole body being corrupt and intentionally encouraging and condoning and supporting racism..This is utter nonsense.

The MacPherson report into the handling of the murder of Stephen Lawrence, concluded that there was institutional racism in the metropolitan police, nearly 20 years ago.

If it is possible in London then definitely possible in the US now.
I think to their credit the took massive efforts to improve but I'm not fully up on the situation now. Presume it is much better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence

walshb

~Rebel~ wrote: »

If you just want a snippet from one based around the criminal justice system, instead of reading the whole thing;

This brief presents an overview of the ways in which America’s history of racism and oppression continues to manifest in the criminal justice system, and a summary of research demon- strating how the system perpetuates the disparate treatment of black people. The evidence presented here helps account for the hugely disproportionate impact of mass incarceration on millions of black people, their families, and their communi- ties. This brief explains that:

› Discriminatory criminal justice policies and practices have historically and unjustifiably targeted black people since the Reconstruction Era, including Black Codes, va- grancy laws, and convict leasing, all of which were used to continue post-slavery control over newly-freed people.

› This discrimination continues today in often less overt ways, including through disparity in the enforcement of seemingly race-neutral laws. For example, while rates of drug use are similar across racial and ethnic groups, black people are arrested and sentenced on drug charges at much higher rates than white people.

› Bias by decision makers at all stages of the justice process disadvantages black people. Studies have found that they are more likely to be stopped by the police, detained pretrial, charged with more serious crimes, and sentenced more harshly than white people.

› Living in poor communities exposes people to risk factors for both offending and arrest, and a history of structural racism and inequality of opportunity means that black people are more likely to be living in such conditions of concentrated poverty.
In addition to the clear injustice of a criminal justice system that disproportionately impacts black people, maintaining these racial disparities has a high cost for individuals, families, and communities. At the individual level, a criminal conviction has a negative impact on both employability and access to housing and public services. At the community level, dispropor- tionately incarcerating people from poor communities removes economic resources and drives cycles of poverty and justice system involvement, making criminal justice contact the norm in the lives of a growing number of black Americans.


https://www.vera.org/downloads/publications/for-the-record-unjust-burden-racial-disparities.pdf

(The rest of the paper goes into each in detail)

Thanks for this. I did read it..

But really, it is not showing the PD as being systemically racist..

What are cops to do? Not target crime and criminals and behaviours in black areas?

Is it the cops fault and the justice system’s fault if black people are committing g crime?

Cops target people. Of all color. They target them for their behaviours, not their colors...

~Rebel~

joe40 wrote: »

The MacPherson report into the handling of the murder of Stephen Lawrence, concluded that there was institutional racism in the metropolitan police, nearly 20 years ago.

If it is possible in London then definitely possible in the US now.
I think to their credit the took massive efforts to improve but I'm not fully up on the situation now. Presume it is much better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence

And even leaving aside the specifics, just from a logical point of view of American systems - one can think of it this way.

For 400 years, all of their systems and structures were predicated upon the legal belief and firm position that Black people were subhuman, and did not deserve the same rights as others. This was enshrined in law. It was built into every single system in society, from who could own property, to who could vote, to what bathroom you could use. So that's 400+ years of this.

Now, for just the past 52 years, Black people theoretically have equal rights. Do we think it's plausible, or likely, that every piece of systemic behavior has been successfully overhauled in that time? Keep in mind that this is a country that only even managed to introduce chip & pin decades after we had it. This country moves sloooooow, especially when it comes to standards and regulations and behaviours and mindsets, and especially in institutions that fundamentally dislike change, and have the power to resist it (like police unions).

walshb

joe40 wrote: »

The MacPherson report into the handling of the murder of Stephen Lawrence, concluded that there was institutional racism in the metropolitan police, nearly 20 years ago.

If it is possible in London then definitely possible in the US now.
I think to their credit the took massive efforts to improve but I'm not fully up on the situation now. Presume it is much better.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Stephen_Lawrence

Fair points. And I am not claiming that it is perfect. Systems don’t just change overnight...

But I cannot get behind these claim that now there is clear systemic racism in the United States PDs.

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

But he wasn't and that is why the protests are going on and supported world wide.

I think this is the first post of yours I've thanked all thread.

If this incident hadn't been recorded, by a 17 year old girl (who was later targetted and harassed because she didn't intervene against the 4 cops), the cops would have gotten away with it again. They would have said Floyd put up resistance and it was their only choice; we all know that.

It's why its so curious that BLM activists seem to be calling body cameras racist and are trying to outlaw them.

Just watched a video here about how the optics of policing have changed dramatically since the rise of film. Very interesting.

Overheal

peddlelies wrote: »

Gee, I wonder why that is? There must be some logical explanation!

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

And you don’t wonder if that’s because blacks are doing so many more murders or if they are just being convicted at a higher rate? The clearance rate for homicides hovers around 60% and has been in decline. For 40% of murders we don’t know who did it, or what color they are. Food for thought.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Ok,

All this...were certain colors only subject to all this? Or were the laws of the U.S. applied equally to all?

Have I missed something

Systemic racism is the claim....

Racism exists. We all get this, and know this. Racism as a whole....ALL colors suffering and all guilty..

But systemic racism in the police force now? It exists? Against ALL colors?

Have you seen how we treat migrants at the border even?

Whites being incarcerated doesn’t mean it’s not a racist system. There is still a criminal justice system and people are still jailed for crimes that white people commit.

• African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.
• In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.
• In eleven states, at least 1 in 20 adult black males is in prison.
• In Oklahoma, the state with the highest overall black incarceration rate, 1 in 15 black males ages 18 and older is in prison.
• States exhibit substantial variation in the range of racial disparity, from a black/white ratio of 12.2:1 in New Jersey to 2.4:1 in Hawaii.
• Latinos are imprisoned at a rate that is 1.4 times the rate of whites. Hispanic/white ethnic disparities are particularly high in states such as Massachusetts (4.3:1), Connecticut (3.9:1), Pennsylvania (3.3:1), and New York (3.1:1).

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

MeMen2_MoRi_

Can anyone point to where the system actually changed is the better question, I think.

Laws are built upon, evolve into something else does the evolution end up back at the point from which it started?

I watched the documentary 13 that was suggested here, I see the evolution yet it still seems to end up back from where it came from.

*Perception is reality. What it means is that for others, be they your peers, subordinates, or superiors, how they perceive you is reality to them—and how you perceive yourself has nothing to do with it. It means that your behaviors and their results matter infinitely more than your intentions."

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

That’s just a really absurd analogy!

How?

They are a force who knows how to stay the fcuk calm and not escalate a situation.

~Rebel~

walshb wrote: »

Thanks for this. I did read it..

But really, it is not showing the PD as being systemically racist..

What are cops to do? Not target crime and criminals and behaviours in black areas?

Is it the cops fault and the justice system’s fault if black people are committing g crime?

Cops target people. Of all color. They target them for their behaviours, not their colors...

Honestly, more than reforming police behaviour towards minorities, I think perhaps its easier to think of it as overhauling the police system in its entirety - as I was arguing a wee while a go against the other lad, it's more unfair against Black people, but it's terrible for everyone. It's just a really bad system that trains everyone primarily in force and violent confrontation. 13 weeks training in many states, and very few have more than 19 weeks. Gardai get over 100 weeks.

So doing something like what Camden County did 7 years ago - having divisions within the police force so some were the 'soliders' and others were the carers, automatically mean you get to approach different situations in different ways. Maybe one armed police officer, and one social worker with a specialty in domestic abuse are better to go to a domestic abuse complaint, instead of 7 cops with tasers and guns who just make things worse for everyone. And it's also cheaper! Win win!

If you reform what the police actually are as a thing, it works better for everyone.

THEN, you need to start the serious work, which is undoing the really damaging systemic side, which I see more as social. Bad schools in poor Black areas, that only get funding from the local tax district, which is poor, so there's no chance of improvement. Funding schools on a state basis rather than a district basis would help a lot with bringing schools up to a standard level, instead of guaranteeing that they would stay poor.

Even if you don't want to think of it racially, even if you just want to think of it as social class - if you fix the most oppressed in terms of financial earnings, you by default fix many of the racial problems at the same time. There are many many race-specific issues on top of this, but just some effort to socially balance the country would at least help these as a by-product.

walshb

Overheal wrote: »

Have you seen how we treat migrants at the border even?

Whites being incarcerated doesn’t mean it’s not a racist system. There is still a criminal justice system and people are still jailed for crimes that white people commit.

• African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.
• In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.
• In eleven states, at least 1 in 20 adult black males is in prison.
• In Oklahoma, the state with the highest overall black incarceration rate, 1 in 15 black males ages 18 and older is in prison.
• States exhibit substantial variation in the range of racial disparity, from a black/white ratio of 12.2:1 in New Jersey to 2.4:1 in Hawaii.
• Latinos are imprisoned at a rate that is 1.4 times the rate of whites. Hispanic/white ethnic disparities are particularly high in states such as Massachusetts (4.3:1), Connecticut (3.9:1), Pennsylvania (3.3:1), and New York (3.1:1).

https://www.sentencingproject.org/publications/color-of-justice-racial-and-ethnic-disparity-in-state-prisons/

I appreciate all this.

But a very important question is, are these people being fairly jailed? Are they committing crimes, being arrested, tried, given access to the same systems as anyone else?

Just shooting off numbers and stats does not tell the story, or show a systemic racial bias...

Population is one criteria. Rate of crime per type of population is a more important criteria..

What do you want? The same ratios of conviction and jail for all colors?

Is the system to now jail more and more whites to even up the stats/percentages?

Overheal

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's the statistics for the percentage of crimes committed by black people?

When you spend night after night policing black people, witnessing crime after crime, eventually you're going to be biased that way. See a suspicious black person? Makes perfect sense to question it same would apply to a white person of a certain demeanour. So called white trash or red necks.

So then we agree there is racism in policing. ‘Oh a black committed this crime one time let’s go patrol a black neighborhood then’

Justin Credible Darts

~Rebel~ wrote: »

You said the police did a good job, I pointed out why they did a bad job -

Again you took a blanket statement I made concerning the police in all countries to subvert it to make it suit your agenda..


Even if the us police is as corrupt as you say, there is still more good than bad.


I know you want to scream and shout down others for daring to have a different opinion, and if it is your belief the america police force is more bad than good that is your right, but do not expect me to believe it.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Cops target people. Of all color. They target them for their behaviours, not their colors...

Stop and frisk proves that notion completely wrong. Unless the behavior is blacks walk around NYC more often than whites and tbh I’m fairly sure they don’t.

peddlelies

This is my last post on this thread.

Here are all the FBI statistics for arrests under 18 in 2017, the over 18 statistics are available here too - https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

Kids are being born by the bucket load in poor neighborhoods and growing up fatherless leading to a life of crime, this cycle continues year after year. Cops get accused of racism because these poor neighborhoods and upbringings are creating endless queues of criminals. The black community in these areas accuse the cops of targeting them but it's not the reality, it's their communities which are disproportionately committing crime. One bad cop does something bad like in the George Floyd case ( 350 million + public interactions a year ) and suddenly it's all the police's fault and white peoples fault for every problem they ever had in the their lives.

Politicians have failed those communities, not the police and not the random white man walking down the street. Until there is serious money invested in improving these communities or even the simple allowance of school choice ( which Democrats oppose ) nothing is ever going to change.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

So then we agree there is racism in policing. ‘Oh a black committed this crime one time let’s go patrol a black neighborhood then’

Oh ffs. Let's go patrol the neighbourhoods with all the crime. They happen to be black neighbourhoods. What so just leave them to it? Probably not a bad idea except that would be called racism too if they were to only police wealthy white neighbourhoods with little or no crime.

walshb

Overheal wrote: »

How?

They are a force who knows how to stay the fcuk calm and not escalate a situation.

Ok.

Your view of that incident?

Were the police wrong, completely? Did the person tackled/arrested do nothing wrong at all? Us he in any way responsible for what happened?

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Fair points. And I am not claiming that it is perfect. Systems don’t just change overnight...

But I cannot get behind these claim that now there is clear systemic racism in the United States PDs.

I’d be interested in you watching the 13th on Netflix then and see where your opinion is at an hour later

MeMen2_MoRi_

Overheal wrote: »

I’d be interested in you watching the 13th on Netflix then and see where your opinion is at an hour later

Watched it last night, got interrupted a few times watching it, plan is to watch again later.

Patriot missiles guidance systems being produced by incarcerated scum is an interesting point..

Justin Credible Darts

if this american police department is so racist that even the "experts" on this forum can see it, then how come the thousands of black officers and , those of other minorities do not see it.

Surely if this systematic racism is this evident to the experts on here, the educated black officers must surely see it and have resigned from such a force.