George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

titan18

Overheal wrote: »

So then we agree there is racism in policing. ‘Oh a black committed this crime one time let’s go patrol a black neighborhood then’

A lot of people would just call it common sense though. Obviously, you should have a higher police presence in areas where crimes are already known to happen more regularly. It's just sensible decision making really.

~Rebel~

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Again you took a blanket statement I made concerning the police in all countries to subvert it to make it suit your agenda..


Even if the us police is as corrupt as you say, there is still more good than bad.


I know you want to scream and shout down others for daring to have a different opinion, and if it is your belief the america police force is more bad than good that is your right, but do not expect me to believe it.

I provided evidence to back up my opinion. Your claim doesn't mean anything without doing the same.

And I dare-say killing over 400 unarmed people last year points towards fundamentally bigger issues than just individual bad actors.

I didn't subvert anything, I argued against a statement you made before, and made again in this very post. Simple as that.

Incidentally, I'm not even saying they're corrupt, that implies they're not doing what their approach is supposed to be. I think contrary to that, that they're doing exactly what they've been trained to do. Total and complete physical subjugation as a first step in many situations, regardless of its necessity, and then ask questions. I mean, even when you look at any of the videos seemingly in defence of them, you see cops getting shouted at, and doing nothing. Ignoring it aside from the occasional glare that tells you they'd love to beat the crap out of the person... is that good enough? Letting the situation get hotter and hotter? Like, surely you want cops that can actively engage with the person and try to calm them down, take the heat out of the conversation, or move them away. But you don't see any of that. All you ever see is ignore, ignore, ignore, and then sudden escalation into confrontation. A cops first instinct should be de-escalation, but the examples of that are few and far between. That's a massive problem imo. Irish gardai are, imo, significantly better at all of this.

Justin Credible Darts

titan18 wrote: »

A lot of people would just call it common sense though. Obviously, you should have a higher police presence in areas where crimes are already known to happen more regularly. It's just sensible decision making really.

dont confuse people with logic

joe40

walshb wrote: »

I appreciate all this.

But a very important question is, are these people being fairly jailed? Are they committing crimes, being arrested, tried, given access to the same systems as anyone else?

Just shooting off numbers and stats does not tell the story, or show a systemic racial bias...

Population is one criteria. Rate of crime per type of population is a more important criteria..

What do you want? The same ratios of conviction and jail for all colors?

Is the system to now jail more and more whites to even up the stats/percentages?

I think you have to go back way before the criminal justice system gets involved, to get to the source of the problems.

There is poverty, inequality, poor education system, poor health care all feeding into this.

I think that is where the real problems lie. There is too much crime in poor areas too much gun crime and addiction.
An overly aggressive poorly trained police force doesn't help but they don't cause the crime.

There are no easy answers but crime and poverty go hand in hand.

Our housing policies for social housing are now trying to avoid just building estates and putting all the social housing there because it creates ghettos where crime flourishes and vicious cycles become established.

The BLM will probably lose momentum, the protests can't continue but there must be real effort to confront inequality in America, for all communities.

But with such extreme opposition to social welfare, affordable health care or affordable third level education, I'm not optimistic.

Just to very clear on this the vast majority of poor people do not commit crime it is just criminals get a foothold in those communities.

2u2me

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

if this american police department is so racist that even the "experts" on this forum can see it, then how come the thousands of black officers and , those of other minorities do not see it.

Surely if this systematic racism is this evident to the experts on here, the educated black officers must surely see it and have resigned from such a force.

Mayors, chief of police and union bosses also

Justin Credible Darts

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I provided evidence to back up my opinion. Your claim doesn't mean anything without doing the same.

I daresay more than just individual bad actors, killing over 400 unarmed people a year points towards fundamentally bigger issues..

sounds bad, but have you factored in the population of america to other countries.
Have you factored in things like this would not happen in countries like Ireland where the average cop is not armed,


Its hardly a shock a nation where not only the police are armed, but the public can be armed, would have higher gun deaths than a country with no guns. I have no doubt a lot of those deaths were by police officers who mistakenly might have thought the victim was carrying a weapon, which could be understandable in some cases.


Lets not forget these same cops shot more white people than black.

but that is a different argument to my point that there are more good cops than bad, and this blame the police for everything is an excuse by some to act like scum

walshb

joe40 wrote: »

I think you have to go back way before the criminal justice system gets involved, to get to the source of the problems.

There is poverty, inequality, poor education system, poor health care all feeding into this.

I think that is where the real problems lie. There is too much crime in poor areas too much gun crime and addiction.
An overly aggressive poorly trained police force doesn't help but they don't cause the crime.

There are no easy answers but crime and poverty go hand in hand.

Our housing policies for social housing are now trying to avoid just building estates and putting all the social housing there because it creates ghettos where crime flourishes and vicious cycles become established.

The BLM will probably lose momentum, the protests can't continue but there must be real effort to confront inequality in America, for all communities.

But with such extreme opposition to social welfare, affordable health care or affordable third level education, I'm not optimistic.

Just to very clear on this the vast majority of poor people do not commit crime it is just criminals get a foothold in those communities.

Yes. I get all this. But it’s going off course. Systemic racism in the PDs is the question...

Cops are supposed to uphold the law.... end of..

Poverty and education and all that is for the whole of society. Everyone.

Cops do their job. End of. Can’t expect cops to be picking and choosing who to check, arrest, challenge etc based off wealth and education and all that..

Cops can’t decide to not act just because maybe someone is unemployed, uneducated, down and out. They have to apply the laws of the land.

They do. To ALL....

Poverty may explain why crime is more prevalent, but it can never be used to excuse crime, turn a blind eye to crime, or condone it. The cops just do their jobs.

2u2me

Equality of opportunity leads to disparate outcomes because of culture between groups. There is a culture on men, on women, girls, boys, Chinese, Black, American, Irish etc.. etc..

The more we push the identity politics the more extreme these disparate outcomes become (e.g. different proportional incarceration rates between women/men and black/white for same crimes). Then these said disparate outcomes are being used to prove 'racism' itself. This logic is warped and backwards.

As long as the system is somewhat objective and doesn't treat people differently because of the colour of their skin then that system is not racist.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

I appreciate all this.

But a very important question is, are these people being fairly jailed? Are they committing crimes, being arrested, tried, given access to the same systems as anyone else?

Just shooting off numbers and stats does not tell the story, or show a systemic racial bias...

Population is one criteria. Rate of crime per type of population is a more important criteria..

What do you want? The same ratios of conviction and jail for all colors?

Is the system to now jail more and more whites to even up the stats/percentages?

If blacks and whites commit the same offenses at the same rates they should have the same experience in the system.

One of the highlighted problems have been drugs. Crack, favored by blacks, had for the longest time mandatory minimum sentences without parole. Cocaine, much much less so, and favored by affluent whites. A case of finding a dog whistle way of criminalizing one caste of people differently from another. This was the whole gag of demonizing marijhuana because those ‘lazy mexicanos’ smoke it while they steal your job and support communism etc Marijuana is used at the same rate regardless of race but blacks are convicted more often and face higher sentences in side by side comparisons of identical offenders white and black.

Strange how when crack was an epidemic problem for blacks it was vilified and criminalized; when whites realized much more recently that they are experiencing an opioid crisis, it’s been greeted with understanding and kid gloves, support programs and prosecuting the sources of the drug not the user etc. not rounding up the addicts and getting them off the street like we saw with crack cocaine who were jailed without parole.

Even up until a few decades ago, blacks couldn’t sit on a jury, and blacks were tried by all white panels. Blacks couldn’t be attorneys. Blacks couldn’t be judges. You certainly didn’t see black lawmakers either. So over time crime statistics stacked against blacks and minorities. It certainly did not help that blacks had fleeting representation in the news media, nevermind media at large, where they were depicted with negative connotations and racial stereotypes.

And even now that you have blacks in the profession and in civil service as lawmakers and what else, something around 1 in 13 of blacks already don’t have the right to vote because of prior convictions for, you guessed it, drug use and all else. Compare to 1 in 56 of all other demographics losing their right to vote. This is a direct problem in electing Sheriff's, mayors, officials, lawmakers etc. who are more representative of the communities they serve and beholden to the communities they serve. No politician has to cater to the civil rights of a felon that can’t vote for them, or a caste of people in the community that cannot.

Christy42

2u2me wrote: »

Equality of opportunity leads to disparate outcomes because of culture between groups. There is a culture on men, on women, girls, boys, Chinese, Black, American, Irish etc.. etc..

The more we push the identity politics the more extreme these disparate outcomes become (e.g. different proportional incarceration rates between women/men and black/white for same crimes). Then these said disparate outcomes are being used to prove 'racism' itself. This logic is warped and backwards.

As long as the system is somewhat objective and doesn't treat people differently because of the colour of their skin then that system is not racist.

Equality of opportunity is a pretty massive assumption. Especially for somewhere with as much wealth inequality as the US.

Overheal

peddlelies wrote: »

This is my last post on this thread.

Here are all the FBI statistics for arrests under 18 in 2017, the over 18 statistics are available here too - https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

Kids are being born by the bucket load in poor neighborhoods and growing up fatherless leading to a life of crime, this cycle continues year after year. Cops get accused of racism because these poor neighborhoods and upbringings are creating endless queues of criminals. The black community in these areas accuse the cops of targeting them but it's not the reality, it's their communities which are disproportionately committing crime. One bad cop does something bad like in the George Floyd case ( 350 million + public interactions a year ) and suddenly it's all the police's fault and white peoples fault for every problem they ever had in the their lives.

Politicians have failed those communities, not the police and not the random white man walking down the street. Until there is serious money invested in improving these communities or even the simple allowance of school choice ( which Democrats oppose ) nothing is ever going to change.

Those communities are fatherless because, among other things, lots of them are in prison without parole for drug use.

It’s a little hard to accept this argument of ‘oh well the communities are just a mess’ when it’s the criminal justice system that is slicing the legs off the community at the family level.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

if this american police department is so racist that even the "experts" on this forum can see it, then how come the thousands of black officers and , those of other minorities do not see it.

Surely if this systematic racism is this evident to the experts on here, the educated black officers must surely see it and have resigned from such a force.

There's a case or was a case of racism against the MPD. The police department from which George Floyd lost his life to. The leader of the MPD police union has a questionable past, what is clear police unions have huge sway on how things change within the PDs, this needs to change.

2u2me

Christy42 wrote: »

Equality of opportunity is a pretty massive assumption. Especially for somewhere with as much wealth inequality as the US.

I've posted a few times now about the american dream being dead. I buy into that narrative that is supported in facts and figures.

The narrative I don't buy into is the systemic racism one.

Justin Credible Darts

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

There's a case or was a case of racism against the MPD. The police department from which George Floyd lost his life to. The leader of the MPD police union has a questionable past, what is clear police unions have huge sway on how things change within the PDs, this needs to change.

I said earlier not only was the cop responsible for the death of Floyd guilty, but those above him who allowed him remain in the police force are as culpable.


I have no doubt there is racism in the police, as there is in all walks of life, however I dont think its as systematic as some would have us believe, otherwise white people would not be shot more than black people.
I think the good police officers far outnumber the rotten ones, and too many people are tarring all the police with the same brush because of the actions of a few despicable ones.

Overheal

titan18 wrote: »

A lot of people would just call it common sense though. Obviously, you should have a higher police presence in areas where crimes are already known to happen more regularly. It's just sensible decision making really.

When you recognize that historically criminal areas are the result of an historic pattern of racial discrimination in criminal justice it’s not really common sense anymore, it’s just sunk cost.

joe40

walshb wrote: »

Yes. I get all this. But it’s going off course. Systemic racism in the PDs is the question...

Cops are supposed to uphold the law.... end of..

Poverty and education and all that is for the whole of society. Everyone.

Cops do their job. End of. Can’t expect cops to be picking and choosing who to check, arrest, challenge etc based off wealth and education and all that..

Cops can’t decide to not act just because maybe someone is unemployed, uneducated, down and out. They have to apply the laws of the land.

They do. To ALL....

Poverty may explain why crime is more prevalent, but it can never be used to excuse crime, turn a blind eye to crime, or condone it. The cops just do their jobs.

Right so purely on the subject of policing.
First of all I'm not an expert on policing or on America these are just my views based on media reports.

I think American policing could improve and I'm sure there are plenty of examples of good practice already.

For one thing I think the whole ethos of American policing is overly aggressive, and overly militarised. Some of the police shooting we have witnessed have been barbaric. I saw one filmed from inside a bus. There was a man on a street wielding a knife he seemed disturbed in some way.

However he was surrounded by loads of armed cops pointing guns. After a bit of shouting they just shot him dead.

In Ireland the guards would have kept him contained and negotiated for hours if needs be. The first instinct would not be shoot him dead.
The video of the guy crawling in the corridor posted here is another example of needless death.

Far too much petty harassment, vehicle stops etc is reported.
Police unions seem to have far too much authority.

Is there sufficient oversight, are there rigorous systems to investigate complaints against the police, it would seem not.

I just find it hard to believe that there is this level of anger from the black community without there been justification.

Maybe some are of the opinion they're all criminals so what would you expect.
I certainly don't share that view. There is massive anger from ordinary people in the black community. I don't know their lives but something is fuelling the anger and outrage. And no it's not CNN.
Maybe this presidency is feeding the unrest, I don't know.

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

Yes. I get all this. But it’s going off course. Systemic racism in the PDs is the question...

Cops are supposed to uphold the law.... end of..

Poverty and education and all that is for the whole of society. Everyone.

Cops do their job. End of. Can’t expect cops to be picking and choosing who to check, arrest, challenge etc based off wealth and education and all that..

Cops can’t decide to not act just because maybe someone is unemployed, uneducated, down and out. They have to apply the laws of the land.

They do. To ALL....

Poverty may explain why crime is more prevalent, but it can never be used to excuse crime, turn a blind eye to crime, or condone it. The cops just do their jobs.

This is not correct police enforce the law at their own discretion. If they could not, you would never hear of or understand what getting off with a warning is. Judges would never factor financial hardships into deciding whether to set bail or fines.

I pleaded guilty once to speeding 90 MPH once in a 70 MPH zone. The reality was, I was doing 110 MPH. I know this. The cop knew this. But he wrote the ticket for 90, otherwise I would have been statutorily incarcerated. When I got to court and pleaded guilty straight up, the judge effectively dismissed the charges: my record was expunged in exchange for an $80 fine and a pinky promise to attend defensive driving, which I did. No points on my license.

If a black person did what I did they would have been dragged out of the car at gunpoint, of that I have very little doubt.

walshb

Overheal wrote: »

This is not correct police enforce the law at their own discretion. If they could not, you would never hear of or understand what getting off with a warning is. Judges would never factor financial hardships into deciding whether to set bail or fines.

I pleaded guilty once to speeding 90 MPH once in a 70 MPH zone. The reality was, I was doing 110 MPH. I know this. The cop knew this. But he wrote the ticket for 90, otherwise I would have been statutorily incarcerated. When I got to court and pleaded guilty straight up, the judge effectively dismissed the charges: my record was expunged in exchange for an $80 fine and a pinky promise to attend defensive driving, which I did. No points on my license.

If a black person did what I did they would have been dragged out of the car at gunpoint, of that I have very little doubt.

I am well aware that cops have discretion..

And you can’t know if a black persons did what you did that he would be treated differently, the same, or very differently..

joe40

Overheal wrote: »

This is not correct police enforce the law at their own discretion. If they could not, you would never hear of or understand what getting off with a warning is. Judges would never factor financial hardships into deciding whether to set bail or fines.

I pleaded guilty once to speeding 90 MPH once in a 70 MPH zone. The reality was, I was doing 110 MPH. I know this. The cop knew this. But he wrote the ticket for 90, otherwise I would have been statutorily incarcerated. When I got to court and pleaded guilty straight up, the judge effectively dismissed the charges: my record was expunged in exchange for an $80 fine and a pinky promise to attend defensive driving, which I did. No points on my license.

If a black person did what I did they would have been dragged out of the car at gunpoint, of that I have very little doubt.

Hope you have slowed down since..

Overheal

joe40 wrote: »

Right so purely on the subject of policing.
First of all I'm not an expert on policing or on America these are just my views based on media reports.

I think American policing could improve and I'm sure there are plenty of examples of good practice already.

For one thing I think the whole ethos of American policing is overly aggressive, and overly militarised. Some of the police shooting we have witnessed have been barbaric. I saw one filmed from inside a bus. There was a man on a street wielding a knife he seemed disturbed in some way.

However he was surrounded by loads of armed cops pointing guns. After a bit of shouting they just shot him dead.

In Ireland the guards would have kept him contained and negotiated for hours if needs be. The first instinct would not be shoot him dead.
The video of the guy crawling in the corridor posted here is another example of needless death.

Far too much petty harassment, vehicle stops etc is reported.
Police unions seem to have far too much authority.

Is there sufficient oversight, are there rigorous systems to investigate complaints against the police, it would seem not.

I just find it hard to believe that there is this level of anger from the black community without there been justification.

Maybe some are of the opinion they're all criminals so what would you expect.
I certainly don't share that view. There is massive anger from ordinary people in the black community. I don't know their lives but something is fuelling the anger and outrage. And no it's not CNN.
Maybe this presidency is feeding the unrest, I don't know.

What’s incredible about the incident you mention is there was one guy in the 90s, Asian or white iirc, cops negotiated with him for hours on the sidewalk waving a samurai sword. He was eventually subdued with beanbag rounds.

More recently police murdered Laquan McDonald and well I’ll let folks read up on that one but needless to say, even those who don’t believe in the systemic racism of the criminal justice system should be able to spot the systemic problem of out of control escalation.

Even that video someone posts in the BLM thread that got locked, of Joe Arpaio shouting at Don Lemon: a cop continually escalating the situation while the other person is drying to de-escalate the conversation back to an indoor level. Nevermind if you agreed with Arpaio or not you should be able to spot this problem behavior.

Overheal

joe40 wrote: »

Hope you have slowed down since..

Oh my yes. I drive a Prius C now :pac:

Overheal

walshb wrote: »

I am well aware that cops have discretion..

And you can’t know if a black persons did what you did that he would be treated differently, the same, or very differently..

Oh I’ve seen it:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/california-police-passenger-gunpoint_n_5989fb3ee4b0a66b8baf1919

MeMen2_MoRi_

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I said earlier not only was the cop responsible for the death of Floyd guilty, but those above him who allowed him remain in the police force are as culpable.


I have no doubt there is racism in the police, as there is in all walks of life, however I dont think its as systematic as some would have us believe, otherwise white people would not be shot more than black people.
I think the good police officers far outnumber the rotten ones, and too many people are tarring all the police with the same brush because of the actions of a few despicable ones.

I think all 4 cops were fired straight away iirc, the only thing that irks me is how long it took to charge the other 3.

I honestly believe/want to believe that all cops are not cnuts, if I allow myself to think that my brain scrambles.. what is the point of law of and order then.
Walshb, as an example thinks that because rioters/looters use the cover of protesters the right to protest is lost, does this mean that the good cops lose their right to be considered a good cop because of someone like Derek chauvin and the other 3, Imo no, like you've expressed between white and black there's lots of shades of gray, this should be taken in any situation, it's never black and white.

I'd recommend, 13 to be watched on Netflix, it's an eye opener, even for someone who is on that side, from your posts you're on the the "otherside" of things.

Justin Credible Darts

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

I think all 4 cops were fired straight away iirc, the only thing that irks me is how long it took to charge the other 3.

I honestly believe/want to believe that all cops are not cnuts, if I allow myself to think that my brain scrambles.. what is the point of law of and order then.
Walshb, as an example thinks that because rioters/looters use the cover of protesters the right to protest is lost, does this mean that the good cops lose their right to be considered a good cop because of someone like Derek chauvin and the other 3, Imo no, like you've expressed between white and black there's lots of shades of gray, this should be taken in any situation, it's never black and white.

I'd recommend, 13 to be watched on Netflix, it's an eye opener, even for someone who is on that side, from your posts you're on the the "otherside" of things.

there it is again.,...this notion a person must be on one side or the other.


I believe the police force is generally good
I believe racism exists by some in it


I despise violent protests
I have no issue with peaceful protests.


I utterly despise trump
But wont feel any sympathy when scum get killed.


not everything is one side or the other

MeMen2_MoRi_

@JCD.. Google search or scan back through my posts about "the bast@rd cop" this is an account of a supposed retired cop.. have a read of his thoughts to see the depths that cnuts will fall too either themselves or through PD direction (collecting tin cans).

titan18

Overheal wrote: »

When you recognize that historically criminal areas are the result of an historic pattern of racial discrimination in criminal justice it’s not really common sense anymore, it’s just sunk cost.

Why do Asians not seem to have the same issues? Japanese were rounded up in internment camps there, and treated them just as bad as black people. Also had a history of being worked to death on the railroads.

You don't see the same ghettoisation of Asians or the amount of crime from them as you do in black communities there.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

there it is again.,...this notion a person must be on one side or the other.


I believe the police force is generally good
I believe racism exists by some in it


I despise violent protests
I have no issue with peaceful protests.


I utterly despise trump
But wont feel any sympathy when scum get killed.


not everything is one side or the other

I'm not attacking your previous posts or you, Ive formed an opinion of your stance on things from your posting. I think you and me differ on things, this is okay. It's a discussion board we are on. If we can find a middle ground on things okay, if we differ on things that's grand also. No bullsh!t intended.

Justin Credible Darts

titan18 wrote: »

Why do Asians not seem to have the same issues? Japanese were rounded up in internment camps there, and treated them just as bad as black people. Also had a history of being worked to death on the railroads.

You don't see the same ghettoisation of Asians or the amount of crime from them as you do in black communities there.

where are the arabs rioting due to them being treated like terrorists.


where are the hispanics rioting and they get treated like dirt, have mothers separated from their kids and put in cages.


Seems even asking these questions will have some jump all over you, thankfully most with an agenda have gone on my ignore list.

Justin Credible Darts

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

I'm not attacking your previous posts or you, Ive formed an opinion of your stance on things from your posting. I think you and me differ on things, this is okay. It's a discussion board we are on. If we can find a middle ground on things okay, if we differ on things that's grand also. No bullsh!t intended.

all good. I again am referring to things in general, not specifically you, when i say not everything is a clear case of black and white, Its not a simple case of us and them.


This agenda some have of putting people in certain groups because it does not suit their agenda is in my opinion idiotic.


You can believe racism exists in the police force, without believing it to be systematic.


You can agree with protests, but despise violence and rioting.

Overheal

titan18 wrote: »

Why do Asians not seem to have the same issues? Japanese were rounded up in internment camps there, and treated them just as bad as black people. Also had a history of being worked to death on the railroads.

You don't see the same ghettoisation of Asians or the amount of crime from them as you do in black communities there.

Internment affected all Japanese Americans and they were all given back their civil rights after the war.

There was never a period where the police systemically arrested the Asian American patriarchy, for example. Though in the expansion era lots of Asian migrants were converted into cheap chain gang labor for building the railroads. By and large though the story of Asian Americans is starkly different from that of black chattel slaves.

It’s wrong to say there isn’t/wasn’t ghettoization of asians though, this is how we get Chinatown in NYC and Korea town in LA.