George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

2u2me

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Why?

When they can't do it themselves.. man the fcuk up, do it themselves.. I have my own suspensions yes, if I was to call them out I'd be off this thread asap.

Call someone a racist and cite proof, the truth is always a valid defence.

It's accusations that are baseless and without merit that deserve punishment just like you're making.

Overheal

For folks who have affirmed in their mind etc. that the system is not racist or do not want to hear about how or not it is: what now?

Is the current model sustainable? Regardless of race?

#1: Police should protect and serve. Blue should be the color of de-escalation of any given situation. Can we all agree on this? If you want to escalate a situation: call the military.

Do we all agree prisons in the United States in particular, are for-profit? Is this a model, limit to infinity, That is going to result in more prisoners and criminalization of non violent transgressions? Or is it a model that will lead of a near zero prison population? Does this system of criminal justice fairly give individuals, families and communities the opportunity to rehabilitate and regrow themselves?

Imho based on all the information I’ve seen you will never have a zero population but the explosion of 2+ million prisoners is obscene. As an engineer in the most abstract terms it suggests this is a system that will continue to grow in excess of the public safety justifications.

Overheal

mynamejeff wrote: »

no you didn't , or if you did you didn't understand it ,

by the way did you see that it was written by the sports columnist …..

What didn’t I understand?

MeMen2_MoRi_

2u2me wrote: »

Call someone a racist and cite proof, the truth is always a valid defence.

It's accusations that are baseless and without merit that deserve punishment just like you're making.

If we were going on stats based on this thread, it's racists that have been kicked!!

Let's go with them stats!

mynamejeff

Overheal wrote: »

What didn’t I understand?

going on the post two above this one I don't believe you understand much of the situation you have spent many many days now posting about

Overheal

Can’t everyone just agree every last one of us has implicit biases?

In fact I’d say most people aren’t racist but their biases have been informed and cultivated by racism in the culture and in our history.

Does it clear the air to suggest that there is implicit bias issues in policing, even if you don’t believe the system is racist by design?

MeMen2_MoRi_

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

If we were going on stats based on this thread, it's racists that have been kicked!!

Let's go with them stats!

And yet, it seems that you're hinting at the people who haven't been kicked/banned..

I'm fine with trusting the mods. posters have their own agendas to push.

mynamejeff

Overheal wrote: »

Can’t everyone just agree every last one of us has implicit biases?

In fact I’d say most people aren’t racist but their biases have been informed and cultivated by racism in the culture and in our history.

Does it clear the air to suggest that there is implicit bias issues in policing, even if you don’t believe the system is racist by design?

do you agree that you have implicit biases against police and policing ?

Overheal

mynamejeff wrote: »

going on the post two above this one I don't believe you understand much of the situation you have spent many many days now posting about

Well you can feel free to construct a counter argument if you like.

Silentcorner

Overheal wrote: »

Can’t everyone just agree every last one of us has implicit biases?

In fact I’d say most people aren’t racist but their biases have been informed and cultivated by racism in the culture and in our history.

Does it clear the air to suggest that there is implicit bias issues in policing, even if you don’t believe the system is racist by design?

We live in the Anglosphere...despite divisions no nation has ever succumbed to the hard left or the far right and in my opinion never will...

I don't believe this current administration is anywhere near the far right, I didn't think the last one was anywhere near the hard left...like the UK (the next biggest country in the Anglosphere) they turned away from the extreme left (to be fair they had veered too far left)...the US has done the same and will do again in November.

You won't agree with one word of that...I respect that opinion of yours, I just fundamentally disagree with it...it doesn't make me some ill educated FOX indoctrinated moron.

I agree with you on the policing issue, to be fair.

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And yet, it seems that you're hinting at the people who haven't been kicked/banned..

I'm fine with trusting the mods. posters have their own agendas to push.

Absolutely, mealy-mouthed words like I said. I know there/is still posters here that hold the racist card, they are holding it tight to their chest, fair dues to them they are expressing their opinion in a good way that skirts the rules of boards.ie, it doesn't hide what their true intentions are to me or I'm sure others.

I'm sure they'll Voice opinion on my posts or thank the contrary posts.

Justin Credible Darts

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

If we were going on stats based on this thread, it's racists that have been kicked!!

Let's go with them stats!

so if the racists are indeed who you were speaking about, the ones that were kicked, then why are you bringing it up now if they are banned ?



I think you are trying to imply some who have the audacity to disagree with you are racists but know damn well naming or accusing people without proof will get you banned so you are trying to be devious.

MeMen2_MoRi_

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

so if the racists are indeed who you were speaking about, the ones that were kicked, then why are you bringing it up now if they are banned ?



I think you are trying to imply some who have the audacity to disagree with you are racists but know damn well naming or accusing people without proof will get you banned so you are trying to be devious.

You have the audacity to disagree with me! Do I think you are a racist, nope. There is a select a few that still reside on this thread, absolutely!
Mealy-mouthed words have gotten them by the rules. I ain't naming names if that's you/anyone elses angle to continue this point, it ain't happening so stop, I ain't stupid!

2u2me

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Absolutely, mealy-mouthed words like I said. I know there/is still posters here that hold the racist card, they are holding it tight to their chest, fair dues to them they are expressing their opinion in a good way that skirts the rules of boards.ie, it doesn't hide what their true intentions are to me or I'm sure others.

I'm sure they'll Voice opinion on my posts or thank the contrary posts.

Translation: everyone who disagrees with me is a racist and if you disagree with this post you're a racist. Hilarious kind of chinese-finger, logical reasoning 'trap'.

Ten of Swords

Let's not start throwing around racism accusations at other posters please, let's move the thread along and as always please report post you feel are inappropriate or over the line

Overheal

mynamejeff wrote: »

do you agree that you have implicit biases against police and policing ?

As most Americans I do, and those biases are all over the place, between glorification and demagoguery. But I’ve also interacted positively with police, recently had a 1 on 1 with my chief of police. I occasionally attend coffee sessions hosted by local departments that I live and work in the jurisdiction of.
I know that given the nature of the topic I have spoken in advancement of police reform not police everything-fine-the-way-it-is, but don’t assume that I’m some sort of extremist in my view or my behaviors.

BorneTobyWilde

Overheal wrote: »

Erika Shields resigns from Atlanta PD Chief as another tragic death of a black man at the barrel of an Atlanta PD weapon goes viral

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/13/atlanta-shooting-police/

I don't get it when decent people resign, and then the position get filled by a no good person who only defends the corruption. She was in a position of power, use it !
But this is typical of the P.D hound out the good people, make their life misery until they quit. WE'VE SEEN it in Ireland, where a decent cop, a whistleblower, gets added to the Tulsa system, labelling him a child abuser as a way to harass him.

MeMen2_MoRi_

2u2me wrote: »

Translation: everyone who disagrees with me is a racist and if you disagree with this post you're a racist. Hilarious kind of chinese-finger, logical reasoning 'trap'.

I think the majority of this thread have disagreed with me, yet I said a select few, so your premise "everyone" is so full of sh!t, the higher intellect you profess to have, is shown in this instance to be horse sh!te.

Ghetto slang "you need to check you self".

Muahahaha

Overheal wrote: »

Do we all agree prisons in the United States in particular, are for-profit? Is this a model, limit to infinity, That is going to result in more prisoners and criminalization of non violent transgressions? Or is it a model that will lead of a near zero prison population? Does this system of criminal justice fairly give individuals, families and communities the opportunity to rehabilitate and regrow themselves?

Imho based on all the information I’ve seen you will never have a zero population but the explosion of 2+ million prisoners is obscene. As an engineer in the most abstract terms it suggests this is a system that will continue to grow in excess of the public safety justifications.

The prison regime in the States is developing into a massive corporate industry now. They lock people up because theres lots of money to be made from it.

Whats worse is it is completely corruptible too. In 2009 there was the Kids for Cash scandal whereby two Pennsylvannia judges locked up over 3,000 children in return for bribes to help a private prison fill up to capacity. One child got locked up in prison because they created a MySpace profile slagging off their teacher. Over 3,000 kids had their employment prospects completely destroyed and were criminalised at a very young age because the privatised prison system is always seeking more and more people to generate more and more profit. There was also a simiar scandal with a judge in Texas too- he was also taking bribes to lock people up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

More prisoners equals more slave labour for the prison companies to bid for state contracts for everything from dong hospitals laundry to making state license plates for cars. With a compliant slave labour force they can win tender bids when they only have to pay inmates a few dollars a day. That puts them at a huge advantage over companies who have to pay the minimum wage.

America locks people up at a rate that is rivalled only by China which is considered to be a police state in itself. None of it results in less crime but it does make a lot of folk get incredibly rich. The rich then spend some of their wealth lobbying Washington politicians to make sure the rules of the game remain the same and the money keeps flowing. Anyone running for the Senate or Congress will be offered donations from the private prison companies on the understanding that they wont upset the apple cart if they get elected. Refuse the funding and they will instead fund your political opponent. Its a system that is rotten to the core.

mynamejeff

Overheal wrote: »

As most Americans I do, and those biases are all over the place, between glorification and demagoguery. But I’ve also interacted positively with police, recently had a 1 on 1 with my chief of police. I occasionally attend coffee sessions hosted by local departments that I live and work in the jurisdiction of.
I know that given the nature of the topic I have spoken in advancement of police reform not police everything-fine-the-way-it-is, but don’t assume that I’m some sort of extremist in my view or my behaviors.

do you feel Your biases is effecting your attitude and agenda in this thread ?

I hate to break it to you but your views are extremist, as to your behaviours I couldn't say

Overheal

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I don't get it when decent people resign, and then the position get filled by a no good person who only defends the corruption. She was in a position of power, use it !
But this is typical of the P.D hound out the good people, make their life misery until they quit. WE'VE SEEN it in Ireland, where a decent cop, a whistleblower, gets added to the Tulsa system, labelling him a child abuser as a way to harass him.

It’s called the Tulsa system?? :eek:

MeMen2_MoRi_

mynamejeff wrote: »

do you feel Your biases is effecting your attitude and agenda in this thread ?

I hate to break it to you but your views are extremist, as to your behaviours I couldn't say

You're asking overheal, can you answer the same question..

MeMen2_MoRi_

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Absolutely, mealy-mouthed words like I said. I know there/is still posters here that hold the racist card, they are holding it tight to their chest, fair dues to them they are expressing their opinion in a good way that skirts the rules of boards.ie, it doesn't hide what their true intentions are to me or I'm sure others.

I'm sure they'll Voice opinion on my posts or thank the contrary posts.

Whereas I find posts like yours to be far more intolerant than those who 'skirt the rules' regarding racism (although I suspect many simply aren't being racist at all, and simply have different opinions than yours). They're not trying to shut down other peoples' opinions. You are.

Mods. No need to say anything, Yes, I'll leave it at that.

Overheal

Muahahaha wrote: »

The prison regime in the States is developing into a massive corporate industry now. They lock people up because theres lots of money to be made from it.

Whats worse is it is completely corruptible too. In 2009 there was the Kids for Cash scandal whereby two Pennsylvannia judges locked up over 3,000 children in return for bribes to help a private prison fill up to capacity. One child got locked up in prison because they created a MySpace profile slagging off their teacher. Over 3,000 kids had their employment prospects completely destroyed and were criminalised at a very young age because the privatised prison system is always seeking more and more people to generate more and more profit. There was also a simiar scandal with a judge in Texas too- he was also taking bribes to lock people up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

More prisoners equals more slave labour for the prison companies to bid for state contracts for everything from dong hospitals laundry to making state license plates for cars. With a compliant slave labour force they can win tender bids when they only have to pay inmates a few dollars a day. That puts them at a huge advantage over companies who have to pay the minimum wage.

America locks people up at a rate that is rivalled only by China which is considered to be a police state in itself. None of it results in less crime but it does make a lot of folk get incredibly rich. The rich then spend some of their wealth lobbying Washington politicians to make sure the rules of the game remain the same and the money keeps flowing. Anyone running for the Senate or Congress will be offered donations from the private prison companies on the understanding that they wont upset the apple cart if they get elected. Refuse the funding and they will instead fund your political opponent. Its a system that is rotten to the core.

See - now I know any half awake electorate would stop it before it ever reaches that point - but that is a system that if ran into the ground would see almost half or more of the economy of the United States eventually becoming prison labor, and then you really would have this really fcuked up new-medieval fiefdom of prisoners and oligarchs, only instead of the 1100s kings don’t live in the Keeps the peasants do.

Frankly I am starting to see why Bernie wanted to give voting rights to incarcerated felons

MeMen2_MoRi_

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Whereas I find posts like yours to be far more intolerant than those who 'skirt the rules' regarding racism (although I suspect many simply aren't being racist at all, and simply have different opinions than yours). They're not trying to shut down other peoples' opinions. You are.

Your opinion, you're allowed that. As I am. I ain't or trying to shut anyone's opinion down.

Overheal

mynamejeff wrote: »

do you feel Your biases is effecting your attitude and agenda in this thread ?

I hate to break it to you but your views are extremist, as to your behaviours I couldn't say

Undoubtedly everyone’s biases inform their actions by the second. But what have I said that was extreme besides that outburst when we learned David McAtee was killed?

irishproduce

I posted this in another thread but it equally belongs here.
Bias against the police aside (And I would have an issue with that too, since as anti racism activists would say, tarring everyone with the one brush because of some or other reason - including race - is not fair. Imagine being a dedicated police officer dedicating years of honest good service and you are accused and discriminated against because of some who wear the same uniform as you in your country or another. Not fair)...

I think the media are not helping in all this.
They simply are applying different standards to reporting and they are all using central sources to just push the news out.

Look at this report from RTE
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0613/1147235-london-floyd-demonstration/

Just one paragraph i've highlighted

RTE wrote:

Police on horseback pushed back demonstrators near the statues of Mandela and Gandhi today as protesters continued to throw objects towards them, including at least one smoke bomb.

Speaking before the clashes, Paul Golding, leader of Britain First, said the crowds had turned out to "guard our monuments", telling the PA news agency: "I am extremely fed up with the way that the authorities have allowed two consecutive weekends of vandalism against our national monuments.

"Anyone who comes along today to try and vandalise them will probably be dealt with by all of these Englishmen that turned up, and they're fed up as well." But when asked about the Nelson Mandela statue, Mr Golding said: "Why should we have a communist terrorist mass murderer in the capital city of England? It doesn't make any sense.

"We would like to see that one go, on good grounds, but the rest of them are our historical heritage.".

Then on the journal.ie
https://www.thejournal.ie/statue-protests-london-5122207-Jun2020/

This paragraph

Journal wrote:

Police on horseback pushed back demonstrators near the statues of Mandela and Gandhi today as protesters continued to throw objects towards them, including at least one smoke bomb.

‘Extremely fed up’

Speaking before the clashes, Paul Golding, leader of Britain First, said the crowds had turned out to “guard our monuments”, telling the PA news agency: “I am extremely fed up with the way that the authorities have allowed two consecutive weekends of vandalism against our national monuments.

“Anyone who comes along today to try and vandalise them will probably be dealt with by all of these Englishmen that turned up, and they’re fed up as well.”

But when asked about the Nelson Mandela statue, Golding said: “Why should we have a communist terrorist mass murderer in the capital city of England? It doesn’t make any sense.

“We would like to see that one go, on good grounds, but the rest of them are our historical heritage.".

No problem, they are all using the same source feeding them the news.
But they add their own little opinion which is where I see the issue.

The BBC report almost identically but they put in this line

BBC wrote:

But despite claims that the day was about defending British heritage, it soon became violent.

Can you imagine any of them reporting a line like "But despite claims that the day was about highlighting that black lives matter, it soon became violent and resulted in rioting and looting"

The media should be staying impartial, otherwise they are inflaming one or both sides.
By reporting unbiased and staying neutral, all sides might look at themselves instead.

MeMen2_MoRi_

That's why referencing multiple sources is a good thing, you then inform yourself with a good reasoned opinion. Middle ground is found.

Overheal

irishproduce wrote: »

I posted this in another thread but it equally belongs here.
Bias against the police aside (And I would have an issue with that too, since as anti racism activists would say, tarring everyone with the one brush because of some or other reason - including race - is not fair. Imagine being a dedicated police officer dedicating years of honest good service and you are accused and discriminated against because of some who wear the same uniform as you in your country or another. Not fair)...

I think the media are not helping in all this.
They simply are applying different standards to reporting and they are all using central sources to just push the news out.

Look at this report from RTE
https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0613/1147235-london-floyd-demonstration/

Just one paragraph i've highlighted



Then on the journal.ie
https://www.thejournal.ie/statue-protests-london-5122207-Jun2020/

This paragraph



No problem, they are all using the same source feeding them the news.
But they add their own little opinion which is where I see the issue.

The BBC report almost identically but they put in this line



Can you imagine any of them reporting a line like "But despite claims that the day was about highlighting that black lives matter, it soon became violent and resulted in rioting and looting"

The media should be staying impartial, otherwise they are inflaming one or both sides.
By reporting unbiased and staying neutral, all sides might look at themselves instead.

See that’s a loaded statement in itself, though? It’s a line designed to subversively invalidate the subject, BLM and their intention, peaceful protest. You could just independently state “18 cars were set on fire, 10 shops were looted, police made 8 arrests, etc” and that is neutral information.

2u2me

Overheal wrote: »

See - now I know any half awake electorate would stop it before it ever reaches that point - but that is a system that if ran into the ground would see almost half or more of the economy of the United States eventually becoming prison labor, and then you really would have this really fcuked up new-medieval fiefdom of prisoners and oligarchs, only instead of the 1100s kings don’t live in the Keeps the peasants do.

Frankly I am starting to see why Bernie wanted to give voting rights to incarcerated felons

Well you do know who signed "The first step Act" into law?

It seems it had almost entirely bipartisan support. I wish we saw more of this stuff but because orange man did it- it must be bad!

If the poor electorate stop bickering about race and privilege and all this systemic nonsense they could actually make some real change right now.