George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

2u2me

I'm just going to hammer home this point. I spent over a week trying to figure out the demands of the protestors. The timeline is in this thread for all to see. Especially asking questions of those advocating violence the most. I was happy if the direction they took was police reform, I stated many times that was what I was hoping for.

This was the great rebuttal I got, liked by many of the posters still arguing now. It was a tweet liked by 1k people calling for less police brutality.

That is just not what we're seeing on the ground. Anyone still in the belief that the protestors 'want what you want' is deluding themselves.

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

I'm just going to hammer home this point. I spent over a week trying to figure out the demands of the protestors. The timeline is in this thread for all to see. Especially asking questions of those advocating violence the most. I was happy if the direction they took was police reform, I stated many times that was what I was hoping for.

This was the great rebuttal I got, liked by many of the posters still arguing now. It was a tweet liked by 1k people calling for less police brutality.

That is just not what we're seeing on the ground. Anyone still in the belief that the protestors 'want what you want' is deluding themselves.

So how have you formed an opinion that what they want primarily is the abolishment of all policing?

What I am seeing on the ground, at protests in the US, is that what people want is an end to disparate injustice which exists within police forces and is experienced by people of largely African American backgrounds.

Does that mean only lack lives matter? No.
Does it mean that the only issue is that black people are killed by police? No.

What do you want, a signed document from everyone who has protested anywhere.

joe40

Overheal wrote: »

Take me through your logic:

How does black on black crime prove cops aren’t racist?

The black on black crime is a total red herring in this debate. It is simply not relevant.

The law abiding black community of which the vast majority are, have no responsibility for crime from any section. Black on black crime is done by criminals.

The Black community looking for better policing, should not be made responsible for the crime in their neighborhoods. It is really insidious victim blaming.

Imagine blaming the people of Drogheda for the recent criminality in their town.

The fact that so many are so quick to lap up that false equivalence between police behaviour and behavior of criminals is just ridiculous.

The two are not related. Quite simple.

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

So how have you formed an opinion that what they want primarily is the abolishment of all policing?

What I am seeing on the ground, at protests in the US, is that what people want is an end to disparate injustice which exists within police forces and is experienced by people of largely African American backgrounds.

Does that mean only lack lives matter? No.
Does it mean that the only issue is that black people are killed by police? No.

What do you want, a signed document from everyone who has protested anywhere.

You know how you could better rebut my post? Post up a list of the demands for all to see. From any group. What are they demanding? Let's have a look.

Overheal

2u2me wrote: »

You know how you could better rebut my post? Post up a list of the demands for all to see. From any group. What are they demanding? Let's have a look.

Sure you linked back to such a post already? 8 general measures

2u2me

Overheal wrote: »

Sure you linked back to such a post already? 8 general measures

That's not being demanded Overheal. That's a cultish group of about 1,000 people hardly a representation of what's happening.

walshb

joe40 wrote: »

The black on black crime is a total red herring in this debate. It is simply not relevant.

The law abiding black community of which the vast majority are, have no responsibility for crime from any section. Black on black crime is done by criminals.

The Black community looking for better policing, should not be made responsible for the crime in their neighborhoods. It is really insidious victim blaming.

Imagine blaming the people of Drogheda for the recent criminality in their town.

The fact that so many are so quick to lap up that false equivalence between police behaviour and behavior of criminals is just ridiculous.

The two are not related. Quite simple.

So who is to blame for crime in black neighbourhoods?

Chalk McHugh

Overheal wrote: »

Take me through your logic:

How does black on black crime prove cops aren’t racist?

I didn't say it did but but if you listen to the podcast in its entirety there are quite a few facts that don't equate to the police force being in anyway racist. Which i don't believe for one minute they are. Blacks are more likely to be killed by a black or latino police officer which again doesnt match the narrative that the police force is one big - in the main - white against black racist organisation. I think for most rational and fair minded people and posters on here they can see this blm crap for what it is. A violent, thuggish group who are exactly the type of people they purport to despise: racists. And their disgusting and predictable carry on since Floyds death isn't fooling anyone and will backfire bigtime. Destroying your own cities and country really is a great way to make your point.

joe40

walshb wrote: »

So who is to blame for crime in black neighbourhoods?

The criminals, that is what I'm saying.
They're probably black, but still criminals.

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

That's not being demanded Overheal. That's a cultish group of about 1,000 people hardly a representation of what's happening.

As Overheal pointed out, you yourself posted a list of demands.

Many have pointed out that BLM is not a cohesive movement based on a manifesto, but a cohesive movement based on a belief that the current situation is unacceptable.

This is like the climate conversation on these pages where people discount all advocates for any change if they cannot outline all solutions to all problems.

walshb

joe40 wrote: »

The criminals, that is what I'm saying.
They're probably black, but still criminals.

Yes. And they aren’t doing all this crime completely alone either. Like any crime in any area, there is always more than just the actual criminal involved. People covering, lying, harbouring, pretending and supporting..

A lot of crime ridden areas are due to many people being involved, both directly and indirectly..

Mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, wives, girlfriends, boyfriends and so on..

Tell me how

walshb wrote: »

Yes. And they aren’t doing all this crime completely alone either. Like any crime in any area, there is always more than just the actual criminal involved. People covering, lying, harbouring, pretending and supporting..

A lot of crime ridden areas are due to many people being involved, both directly and indirectly..

Mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, wives, girlfriends, boyfriends and so on..

Same could be said about what is going on in police forces with a 'a few bad apples' couldn't it.

2u2me

Tell me how wrote: »

As Overheal pointed out, you yourself posted a list of demands.

Many have pointed out that BLM is not a cohesive movement based on a manifesto, but a cohesive movement based on a belief that the current situation is unacceptable.

This is like the climate conversation on these pages where people discount all advocates for any change if they cannot outline all solutions to all problems.

So we agree then, they are committing massive amounts of violence and destruction before the demands are even agreed upon.

This happened in Mao's China as well, when the factions split (as they often do) it ended in bloodshed.

joe40

walshb wrote: »

Yes. And they aren’t doing all this crime completely alone either. Like any crime in any area, there is always more than just the actual criminal involved. People covering, lying, harbouring, pretending and supporting..

A lot of crime ridden areas are due to many people being involved, both directly and indirectly..

Mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, friends, wives, girlfriends, boyfriends and so on..

So would you say the same about the people living in crime blackspots of Dublin. (I don't know the city well enough to name them)

Justin Credible Darts

so to all these people who find no fault with the protests, who seem to be quiet when it comes to black on black crime etc.

What have they actually achieved ?

It appears to me people are more annoyed now than they were when the guy floyd was killed,
Racism has not disappeared, in fact i would think because of all the antics by certain members of this BLM, which even some black people have spoken out against, some people who may have held opinions on neither side might be pushed more to one extreme or the other.

All these protests now, violence etc is not solving anything but instead creating more problems

Chalk McHugh

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

so to all these people who find no fault with the protests, who seem to be quiet when it comes to black on black crime etc.

What have they actually achieved ?

It appears to me people are more annoyed now than they were when the guy floyd was killed,
Racism has not disappeared, in fact i would think because of all the antics by certain members of this BLM, which even some black people have spoken out against, some people who may have held opinions on neither side might be pushed more to one extreme or the other.

All these protests now, violence etc is not solving anything but instead creating more problems

100%.

Tell me how

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

so to all these people who find no fault with the protests, who seem to be quiet when it comes to black on black crime etc.

What have they actually achieved ?

It appears to me people are more annoyed now than they were when the guy floyd was killed,
Racism has not disappeared, in fact i would think because of all the antics by certain members of this BLM, which even some black people have spoken out against, some people who may have held opinions on neither side might be pushed more to one extreme or the other.

All these protests now, violence etc is not solving anything but instead creating more problems

Yeah, not like the protests were met with excessive force, violence by police, shutting down of peoples right to assembly or protest, implementation of curfews, and comments by those in charge of implying that the reason for unrest is because of the protesters hasn't inflamed things even further.

You can't literally beat people in to submission and then when they fight back complain that violence is not the answer.

na1

joe40 wrote: »

The criminals, that is what I'm saying.
They're probably black, but still criminals.

Floyd was probably black but still a criminal.

joe40

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

so to all these people who find no fault with the protests, who seem to be quiet when it comes to black on black crime etc.

What have they actually achieved ?

It appears to me people are more annoyed now than they were when the guy floyd was killed,
Racism has not disappeared, in fact i would think because of all the antics by certain members of this BLM, which even some black people have spoken out against, some people who may have held opinions on neither side might be pushed more to one extreme or the other.

All these protests now, violence etc is not solving anything but instead creating more problems

Black on black crime is caused by the criminals carrying out the crime.
Why should the wider black community be held accountable.

Are you responsible for Irish on Irish crime in Ireland when gangsters shoot each other.

Just to be clear I'm not saying you are

I'm certainly not

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

So we agree then, they are committing massive amounts of violence and destruction before the demands are even agreed upon.

This happened in Mao's China as well, when the factions split (as they often do) it ended in bloodshed.

I'm not ignoring the amount of damage which has been done in some locations, but, given the number of people who have marched and the number of protests which have been held, I suspect the cost of the damage per protester is probably much less than what you think it is.

Justin Credible Darts

joe40 wrote: »

Black on black crime is caused by the criminals carrying out the crime.
Why should the wider black community be held accountable.

Are you responsible for Irish on Irish crime in Ireland when gangsters shoot each other.

Just to be clear I'm not saying you are

I'm certainly not

what has your reply got to do with my question of what has all this achieved ?


Do you deliberately choose to ignore things like questions and interpret things in your own way.

Outlaw Pete

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

All these protests now, violence etc is not solving anything but instead creating more problems

Was the very same in 2016. Only then the media (and the POTUS at the time) pushing the false narrative that the Police have a systemic racism problem led to quite a lot of cops being murdered back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLfzMei5AFs

What is needed is a responsible media that lay out the facts when deaths like Floyd's occur as a result of police brutality. Then the public's reaction will be more apt and likely be measured given that they will be aware of the larger context and that it's not just an issue which only the black community have to contend with. Certain sections of the media report such killings when the cop is white and the victim black in way which they know will result in outrage and accusations of systemic racism in the very same way they go for the jugular when a republican is accused of sexual assault but yet downplay it when it's a democrat and the other side do the same. This narrative feeding form of news reporting which the MSM engages in is a cancer on society.

walshb

joe40 wrote: »

So would you say the same about the people living in crime blackspots of Dublin. (I don't know the city well enough to name them)

Of course. Every crime ridden area.

The code of omertà in them for starters. Don’t talk to or cooperate with cops...

A contempt for the police and for law and order exists in a lot of areas.

Not saying everyone in the areas are responsible.

But no it should be naive enough to think that it’s just the actual criminal who makes the areas crime ridden. It’s a network..

That is why I have always said that the criminals oxygen and support needs to be tackled. Not the criminal. Cut off their support, their oxygen. Tackle the people who cover for them, lie for them...give them safe house...

Tell me how

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

This narrative feeding form of news reporting which the MSM engages in is a cancer on society.

They should be more like Fox right, well apart from Fox having to apologise yesterday for manipulating pictures to suggest someone was armed at a protest when they weren't.

Justin Credible Darts

joe40 wrote: »

Black on black crime is caused by the criminals carrying out the crime.
Why should the wider black community be held accountable.

who else should address it ?


If asians were killing asians I would think it would be up to the asian community to get involved in some degree if only condemining violence, and trying to educate people.



Unless of course black on black crime is all the fault of "whitey".
or maybe we can blame that on the police too.

joe40

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

what has your reply got to do with my question of what has all this achieved ?


Do you deliberately choose to ignore things like questions and interpret things in your own way.

You explicitly mentioned black on black crime in your post and how people were quiet about it.

And now you're complaining about me responding.

Chalk McHugh

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Was the very same in 2016. Only then the media (and the POTUS at the time) pushing the false narrative that the Police have a systemic racism problem led to quite a lot of cops being murdered back then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLfzMei5AFs

What is needed is a responsible media that lay out the facts when deaths like Floyd's occur as a result of police brutality. Then the public's reaction will be more apt and likely be measured given that they will be aware of the larger context and that it's not just an issue which only the black community have to contend with. Certain sections of the media report such killings when the cop is white and the victim black in way which they know will result in outrage and accusations of systemic racism in the very same way they go for the jugular when a republican is accused of sexual assault but yet downplay it when it's a democrat and the other side do the same. This narrative feeding form of news reporting which the MSM engages in is a cancer on society.

Of course. And this cancer is lapped up by the hordes who don't want to accept the real facts, anarchists, police haters, criminals, and headbangers of all types to go and smash the hell out of their own home cities whenever a perceived act of racism is perpetrated upon them. Whether its true or not doesnt matter. Its party time to riot, loot, shoot and kill. Cops, store owners, anyone and everyone is fair game for a beating. Egged on by the media who pour fuel on the fire by selective news reporting. A real cesspit of vomit.

joe40

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

who else should address it ?


If asians were killing asians I would think it would be up to the asian community to get involved in some degree if only condemining violence, and trying to educate people.



Unless of course black on black crime is all the fault of "whitey".
or maybe we can blame that on the police too.

So Drogheda people to blame for the feuding there. Ridiculous.
Communities are not to blame for crime.

Outlaw Pete

Tell me how wrote: »

They should be more like Fox right, well apart from Fox having to apologise yesterday for manipulating pictures to suggest someone was armed at a protest when they weren't.

Maybe take more time when reading user's posts:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Certain sections of the media report such killings when the cop is white and the victim black in way which they know will result in outrage and accusations of systemic racism in the very same way they go for the jugular when a republican is accused of sexual assault but yet downplay it when it's a democrat and the other side do the same. This narrative feeding form of news reporting which the MSM engages in is a cancer on society.

Tell me how

Chalk McHugh wrote: »

Of course. And this cancer is lapped up by the hordes who don't want to accept the real facts, anarchists, police haters, criminals, and headbangers of all types to go and smash the hell out of their own home cities whenever a perceived act of racism is perpetrated upon them. Whether its true or not doesnt matter. Its party time to riot, loot, shoot and kill. Cops, store owners, anyone and everyone is fair game for a beating. Egged on by the media who pour fuel on the fire by selective news reporting. A real cesspit of vomit.

Just what percentage of all those who protest are committing acts of violence? In your opinion, what is it?