George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

joe40

Stateofyou wrote: »

Also to further answer the question about what else has been done in a short time (as if the examples I gave weren't incredible enough) San Francisco announced that their "police officers will be replaced with trained, unarmed professions to respond to calls for help on noncriminal matters involving mental health, the homeless, school discipline, neighbour disputes etc as part of a new wave of police reforms." Next up is getting the same in place for drug addiction issues but that is a pretty amazing start.

That is a start good. It is amazing considering the wealth that exists in the US they can't get on top of their social issues.

AbusesToilets

joe40 wrote: »

Different issue.

Is it? Presumably the goal is to reduce violence period. Do black lives not matter when it's black people doing the killing?

2u2me

Stateofyou wrote: »

Have you watched 13th yet? It's on Netflix and shines some light on your post here. Police unions, private prisons, racist laws (war on drugs) etc need huge attention and reform.

So you have no opinion on my question then? Fair enough.

Christy42

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is it? Presumably the goal is to reduce violence period. Do black lives not matter when it's black people doing the killing?

This is like giving out about tigers being saved when pandas are also in danger. This nonsense only gets brought up to stop anything being done about any of the violence.

Certainly black on black crime is its own important issue. It is not the one being dealt with in these protests.

joe40

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is it? Presumably the goal is to reduce violence period. Do black lives not matter when it's black people doing the killing?

The movement BLM was set up purely in response to the disproportionate killing of black people by police. You can accept that or not that is up to you.

It was not talking about black lives lost to suicide, obesity poor health care or crime or any other reason.

All these things are obviously important but the BLM Was not campaigning on those issues.

Some people won't be happy until they're tackling climate change as well.

AbusesToilets

Christy42 wrote: »

This is like giving out about tigers being saved when pandas are also in danger. This nonsense only gets brought up to stop anything being done about any of the violence.

Certainly black on black crime is its own important issue. It is not the one being dealt with in these protests.

Which says a lot about those protesting. What causes more deaths in the black community each year?

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Grand so, but of the murders we do have details on, it's black killing blacks at a massively disproportionate rate.

Do blacks feel safe calling the police to de-escalate disputes before they reach the stage of murders?

I mean, the people who often cite this statistic couple it with 'black communities need to get themselves under control'

Control, how? This takes no bearing on how much of it is organized crime and how much of it is just wanton violence. People cite this statistic as if when you walk down a black neighborhood street you're about to have your head blown off for wearing the wrong color socks.

Black communities do not trust police in their communities and they have very little reason to. If you want less violence in these communities part of that is building trust between the police and the communities. But no we've seen shootings where a cop could kill you just for pulling you over for a tail light. How are black communities supposed to have confidence, then, that if they call the police it won't end with guns drawn no matter what the initial call was about? eg. this article colorfully points out some activities you can get killed for while black:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/21-things-you-cant-do-while-black/

Stateofyou

2u2me wrote: »

So you have no opinion on my question then? Fair enough.

Of course it would. Together with other reforms that are being demanded and rightly so, outcomes would of course improve. But that is going to take a pretty long time to set right and for those communities to heal. Think about the fathers and husbands alone who have been taken from their families for long periods of time (or permanently) and the effect that has on each of their families personally, economically and on their mental health. There needs to be massive investments into communities (education, social programs, etc) and a demilitarised police reform. All of that is going to take time to change and see the effects from. Does that answer your question? The 13th is a great documentary though, highly recommend if you want to try and understand these issues better.

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

Do blacks feel safe calling the police to de-escalate disputes before they reach the stage of murders?

I mean, the people who often cite this statistic couple it with 'black communities need to get themselves under control'

Control, how? This takes no bearing on how much of it is organized crime and how much of it is just wanton violence. People cite this statistic as if when you walk down a black neighborhood street you're about to have your head blown off for wearing the wrong color socks.

Black communities do not trust police in their communities and they have very little reason to. If you want less violence in these communities part of that is building trust between the police and the communities. But no we've seen shootings where a cop could kill you just for pulling you over for a tail light. How are black communities supposed to have confidence, then, that if they call the police it won't end with guns drawn no matter what the initial call was about? eg. this article colorfully points out some activities you can get killed for while black:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/21-things-you-cant-do-while-black/

Is there some outside force that controls individuals and makes them commit violent acts? Somehow white people to blame for that too?

I'm absolutely in favour of addressing issues that act to keep black communities impoverished. This warped line of thinking you've evinced here, that removes agency and responsibility from those carrying out violent acts, is infantilising and imo pretty darn derogatory.

Akrasia

Stateofyou wrote: »

Crime rates only point to the solid research and recommendations that have been made that takes into account the historical systemic racism in that country, and the positive effects that would be made in defunding (aka, massively reducing funding) police departments which will demilitarise their communities and instead funnel the money and resources into proper and appropriate community supports. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

400 years of history which saw slavery, Jim Crow, the "war on drugs," segregation, gentrification, housing and employment discrimination, disenfranchisement, discriminatory policing, police brutality, etc etc have taken a huge toll on the African American people (not forgetting indigenous too). It is going to take a lot of time, rebuilding, and healing to be able to see the positive effects from efforts to tackle the systemic racism.

Yep. If you raise generations of people in poverty, persecute them daily, deny them opportunities and target them as criminals from birth, you reap what you sow

There are an awful lot of black kids in jails for doing the same kinds petty crimes that middle class white kids do all the time with impunity

They do not get the presumption of innocence or access to decent legal representation and know that even if they follow all the rules they could still get taken down by a corrupt cop in a bad mood just because he doesn’t like the way they look, and there often is no justice for black people falsely accused of a crime

Quantum Erasure

BLM UK are campaigning for the dismantlement of imperialism, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, and state structures which perpetuate institutional racism...



https://www.facebook.com/BLMUK/photos/pcb.1618894851592818/1618894614926175/

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Do blacks feel safe calling the police to de-escalate disputes before they reach the stage of murders?

I mean, the people who often cite this statistic couple it with 'black communities need to get themselves under control'

Control, how? This takes no bearing on how much of it is organized crime and how much of it is just wanton violence. People cite this statistic as if when you walk down a black neighborhood street you're about to have your head blown off for wearing the wrong color socks.

Black communities do not trust police in their communities and they have very little reason to. If you want less violence in these communities part of that is building trust between the police and the communities. But no we've seen shootings where a cop could kill you just for pulling you over for a tail light. How are black communities supposed to have confidence, then, that if they call the police it won't end with guns drawn no matter what the initial call was about? eg. this article colorfully points out some activities you can get killed for while black:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/21-things-you-cant-do-while-black/

Why is there not a similar problem in other non white communities? Koreans, Chinese, Indian etc don't seem to have much of a beef with the supposedly racist police. Makes you wonder why.

AbusesToilets

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

BLM UK are campaigning for the dismantlement of imperialism, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, and state structures which perpetuate institutional racism...



https://www.facebook.com/BLMUK/photos/pcb.1618894851592818/1618894614926175/

So just the destruction of western civilization then? Seems reasonable

Justin Credible Darts

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Why did you think it should have disappeared in 3 weeks then? You said it.

I did say it, and you basically agree racism will sadly be always here...ergo the protests continuing, the violence continuing are serving no purpose.


Things are worse now than they were 2 weeks ago, or am I wrong again ?

Stateofyou

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is there not a similar problem in other non white communities? Koreans, Chinese, Indian etc don't seem to have much of a beef with the supposedly racist police. Makes you wonder why.

What?! First of all there is racism against these groups, MASSIVE amounts of it. But unique to black people (and in higher degrees on some racist problems) is the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, "war on drugs," Segregation, gentrification, redlining, housing and job discrimination, discriminatory policing, police brutality, disenfranchisement... etc.

It's almost as if you haven't taken on board anything on this post, watched any documentaries about it, digested any books or historical perspective, read news articles and research in depth, or followed any racial justice social accounts to learn from. Is there really any excuse anymore to be that ignorant?

Edited to add - so you were living under a rock during all the pipeline protests on sacred land, and how their peaceful protests were treated? They had TANKS rolling up on them.

Christy42

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Which says a lot about those protesting. What causes more deaths in the black community each year?

You are absolutely determined to not discuss police brutality aren't you? This is what is required to get anyone to listen to this one.

Anyway I will be sure to pass on your opinion to all those cancer charities since heart issues are a bigger killer.

Justin Credible Darts

joe40 wrote: »

It was not talking about black lives lost to suicide, obesity poor health care or crime or any other reason.

All these things are obviously important but the BLM Was not campaigning on those issues.

no, there are protesting about blacks killed by police, the very same police that killed more whites than blacks, but somehow only the black lives matter.


I have no problem people protesting about the police brutality, which clearly exists , but the police kill white, black, hispanic etc, but why only black lives matter ?
Do hispanic, arabs, whites etc not matter as much ?

joe40

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

BLM UK are campaigning for the dismantlement of imperialism, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, and state structures which perpetuate institutional racism...



https://www.facebook.com/BLMUK/photos/pcb.1618894851592818/1618894614926175/

I think it will blow over in the UK fairly quickly. After the turmoil of Brexit, which isn't over yet I don't think there is an appetite for much more.
Also seems to disparate, something for everybody.

Then again I'm no expert on these things. It can be hard to judge a popular mood.

Stateofyou

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I did say it, and you basically agree racism will sadly be always here...ergo the protests continuing, the violence continuing are serving no purpose.


Things are worse now than they were 2 weeks ago, or am I wrong again ?

JFC, but things AREN'T worse now, and many posts after your comments above have pointed out all the progress made. I'm really starting to be concerned that you can't read. Why are you ignoring those posts. And what are you personally doing in your own life to improve the reality of racism in society?

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Is there some outside force that controls individuals and makes them commit violent acts? Somehow white people to blame for that too?

I'm absolutely in favour of addressing issues that act to keep black communities impoverished. This warped line of thinking you've evinced here, that removes agency and responsibility from those carrying out violent acts, is infantilising and imo pretty darn derogatory.

My point was, naturally, that if you can't trust police to sort out your problems people sort it out for themselves - and they don't have continuum of force considerations.

Black communities have been made fatherless for - it's never not been a problem in the US. Men that aren't killed on the street end up in the prison system, naturally there's a bit of a cycle between broken family units and the prevalence of drugs and crime.

(which is why it's a cruel joke that when Obama commuted the sentences of 100s of drug offenders, the kind who were given life without parole, etc. the media went crazy with fearmongering)

My other bugbear about this whole line of thought is not that there isn't some validity in it on its face, but that even when black people are doing nothing sinister, they are law abiding, they can still be shot and killed with little to no provocation by law enforcement.

This video sums up what we're talking about neatly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgz7kRGVxg

joe40

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Which says a lot about those protesting. What causes more deaths in the black community each year?

Probably heart disease.

Sorry just a bad taste joke. Blame the beer

martingriff

joe40 wrote: »

I think it will blow over in the UK fairly quickly. After the turmoil of Brexit, which isn't over yet I don't think there is an appetite for much more.
Also seems to disparate, something for everybody.

Then again I'm no expert on these things. It can be hard to judge a popular mood.

I think Brexit and the divides and problems that may bring up may make this a whole bigger situation in months to come

Quantum Erasure

Quantum Erasure wrote: »

BLM UK are campaigning for the dismantlement of imperialism, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, and state structures which perpetuate institutional racism...



https://www.facebook.com/BLMUK/photos/pcb.1618894851592818/1618894614926175/

The same thing we do every day Pinky.

Pinky and the brain brain brain brain.......

Justin Credible Darts

Stateofyou wrote: »

JFC, but things AREN'T worse now, and many posts after your comments above have pointed out all the progress made. I'm really starting to be concerned that you can't read. Why are you ignoring those posts. And what are you personally doing in your own life to improve the reality of racism in society?

Its not my place to try convert racists, those people you cannot deal with.
I just make sure to be a decent law abiding citizen who has respect for the police and the law they uphold, and to be accepting of all people.


Me out in the street roaring and shouting in Ireland over something I cannot change in america is utterly pointless.


Why do you think you can lecture me on what I can do about the situation.
If you want to do something go ahead, its not your place to tell me how I should live my life

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Why is there not a similar problem in other non white communities? Koreans, Chinese, Indian etc don't seem to have much of a beef with the supposedly racist police. Makes you wonder why.

How many of those groups are stopped and frisked etc?

How many of those groups are vilified on the evening news?

Spoiler alert: hate crimes against asians spiked as a result of "Wuhan Flu" coverage

joe40

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

no, there are protesting about blacks killed by police, the very same police that killed more whites than blacks, but somehow only the black lives matter.


I have no problem people protesting about the police brutality, which clearly exists , but the police kill white, black, hispanic etc, but why only black lives matter ?
Do hispanic, arabs, whites etc not matter as much ?

So it is up to the black community to protest police killings of whites.

Why are the people in these white communities not protesting police brutality if it clearly exists.

I'm not saying it doesn't but it is not up to impoverished black communities and community leaders to take that on as well.

A lot of the poor white communities are also Republican supporters, who fully back the police regardless.

Eric Cartman

Overheal wrote: »

How many of those groups are stopped and frisked etc?

How many of those groups are vilified on the evening news?

Spoiler alert: hate crimes against asians spiked as a result of "Wuhan Flu" coverage

going from none to a few is a spike, its not like they were being attacked at alarmingly high rates. But sure the poster asked why those groups don't have an issue with police, you pivoted to hate crimes there.

Also as racist as its implementation was believed to be, stop and frisk was the best policy New York ever had for crime reduction, it was shockingly effective.

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

My point was, naturally, that if you can't trust police to sort out your problems people sort it out for themselves - and they don't have continuum of force considerations.

Black communities have been made fatherless for - it's never not been a problem in the US. Men that aren't killed on the street end up in the prison system, naturally there's a bit of a cycle between broken family units and the prevalence of drugs and crime.

(which is why it's a cruel joke that when Obama commuted the sentences of 100s of drug offenders, the kind who were given life without parole, etc. the media went crazy with fearmongering)

My other bugbear about this whole line of thought is not that there isn't some validity in it on its face, but that even when black people are doing nothing sinister, they are law abiding, they can still be shot and killed with little to no provocation by law enforcement.

This video sums up what we're talking about neatly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqgz7kRGVxg

As can white people, at higher levels. The manifold issues facing the poor in the US, and blacks perhaps worst, aren't going to be addressed by rioting and destroying neighbourhoods. They aren't going to be addressed by telling white people they're intrinsically racist and that they should feel ashamed of the facts of their birth. They're not going to be solved by failing to recognise that there are fundamental issues in the black community that are entirely organic in their origins.

Demonizing police, and claiming systematic racism instead of recognising that each incident is unique to itself won't solve anything.

Overheal

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

no, there are protesting about blacks killed by police, the very same police that killed more whites than blacks, but somehow only the black lives matter.

Blacks are 13% of the population and 25% of those killed by cops.

Whites are 72% of the population and 36% of those killed by cops.

Surely you see the problem.

Stateofyou

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

no, there are protesting about blacks killed by police, the very same police that killed more whites than blacks, but somehow only the black lives matter.


I have no problem people protesting about the police brutality, which clearly exists , but the police kill white, black, hispanic etc, but why only black lives matter ?
Do hispanic, arabs, whites etc not matter as much ?

C'mon.... this sh*t is so frustrating. The internet is literally FLOODED with information, memes, protest signs, videos, etc explaining why we specifically say Black lives matter. They never said all lives don't matter. Everyone knows all lives matter. But in the US especially and in places across the world, black lives are treated as if they don't matter. Police brutality and their racist "justice" system disproportionately affects black people. The BLM movement started because black lives, for hundreds of years, have been treated like they don't matter. So that's why there is a focus on that disparity and the effects of systemic racism.