George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

'Sure seems like there are a lot more birds in that area I always go to watch the birds than those areas I never go to watch the birds'

I'll take that as a yes then.

joe40

Danzy wrote: »

Are we calling a legitimate response to an occupying army a bit of mischief now?

****ing hell, the americanization of politics.

That was obviously a joke, I know as well as anyone the horror of the troubles.

I would also have republican leanings but there is no way some of the actions of the IRA were legitimate.

Pub bombings were terrible, Enniskillen and Warrington bombings were not justifiable.

Considering the likes it seems strange how some of you didn't have such a strong aversion to violence after all.

I actually agree with you, on the NI context it is a point I have been making all along.
Sometimes violent protest is understandable.

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'll take that as a yes then.

Take it however you like but blacks are over-policed in my country.

Justin Credible Darts

Stateofyou wrote: »

That's rich to accuse me of illiteracy, when you've literally ignored the answered questions to your posts only to ask them over and over again. Because you don't want to acknowledge what's being said. What does "encountering racism" have to do with doing anything about it? Your response to that question asked to you a couple times now was basically - racism exists, I'm not going to scream and roar in the streets of Ireland and will still be here long after you and I are buried..." You said that. I'm not illiterate, you're aggressively defensive and ignoring answers. You're ignoring ideas and information already posted here about what things can be done to take an active role in anti-racism. I'll list a few for you here again if that helps.

-Call out your friends and family when they say racist/predjudiced things. Don't let it happen anymore and stay silent.
-Watch the 13th, or other films/documentaries to get a better understanding such as Selma, The Hate U Give, When They See Us, Dear White People...
-Read a book from one of the top best sellers at the moment such as How To Be An Anti Racist, Me and White Supremacy, I know Why the Caged Bird Sings, Heavy...
-Do you have kids? Talk to them about race and racism. If you're on Instagram or have access to the internet, follow the Conscious Kid or Patreon.com to start getting ideas and support on how to have those conversations.
-Sign petitions
-Repost and amplify black voices and their experiences. Listen to their stories.

Just a handful of ideas.

As someone who has seen my wife, her sisters, brothers and their kids being victims of racism in this country and the UK, I am all to aware what goes on.
I know you mean well, but believe me if you think I dont care because it "does not affect me" then you really do not have a blessed clue

AbusesToilets

Overheal wrote: »

Take it however you like but blacks are over-policed in my country.

They're also far over represented in rates of violent criminality, but that's seemingly not as important to talk about.

Stateofyou

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

As someone who has seen my wife, her sisters, brothers and their kids being victims of racism in this country and the UK, I am all to aware what goes on.
I know you mean well, but believe me if you think I dont care because it "does not affect me" then you really do not have a blessed clue

All the more reason to do more than saying nothing can be done then. Your family (and their future generations) deserves better.

Overheal

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They're also far over represented in rates of violent criminality, but that's seemingly not as important to talk about.

well we aren't really diving into it are we it's just being talked about superficially. There's plenty of great references out there if you want. tldr its a very complicated issue that is not as simple as 'blacks are predisposed to be criminals'

Justin Credible Darts

Stateofyou wrote: »

All the more reason to do more than saying nothing can be done then. Your family (and their future generations) deserves better.

I said earlier, and I truly believe the violent protests are solving nothing and are making things worse.


People who were on neither side of the debate are now more likely to align with one extreme or the other, and that is sad.


I would love if peaceful protests could rid the world of racism, but am wise enough to know sadly it wont happen.

Stateofyou

AbusesToilets wrote: »

They're also far over represented in rates of violent criminality, but that's seemingly not as important to talk about.

Ok talk plainly here, what are you really trying to say. You think Black people are inherently more likely to commit crimes because that's who they are? And you want to ignore all the contributing factors too?

Stateofyou

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

I said earlier, and I truly believe the violent protests are solving nothing and are making things worse.


People who were on neither side of the debate are now more likely to align with one extreme or the other, and that is sad.


I would love if peaceful protests could rid the world of racism, but am wise enough to know sadly it wont happen.

You were talking in more general terms than the violent side of the riots (please stop conflating that small segment of people rioting with the vast majority of peaceful protesters). You've said the word "whitey" quite a few times and been very sarcastic about the reality of police brutality and systemic racism - questioning if that's even a thing. You've said those protests (riots) have achieved nothing, but that is not true. As has already been pointed out. And sometimes, things must get worse (riots) before they get better. And so they have. In fact if you look throughout history - most especially the US - it's the violent protests that have finally brought about the change. It's literally there, in history, and pointed out in the history of this thread somewhere too.

AbusesToilets

Stateofyou wrote: »

Ok talk plainly here, what are you really trying to say. You think Black people are inherently more likely to commit crimes because that's who they are? And you want to ignore all the contributing factors too?

I'm saying they are disproportionately overrepresented in rates of violent crime, which has a far greater impact on their communities than bad cops.

Downplaying this and trying to shift blame to outside elements does nothing to address that fact. The factors that have discriminated against black, and other poor communities, absolutely need to be dealt with, but police reform isn't going to stop black criminals killing other black people. The arguments from BLM are external in focus, blaming white people, the government, whomever for their issues.

Justin Credible Darts

Stateofyou wrote: »

You were talking in more general terms than the violent side of the riots (please stop conflating that small segment of people rioting with the vast majority of peaceful protesters). You've said the word "whitey" quite a few times and been very sarcastic about the reality of police brutality and systemic racism - questioning if that's even a thing. You've said those protests (riots) have achieved nothing, but that is not true. As has already been pointed out. And sometimes, things must get worse (riots) before they get better. And so they have. In fact if you look throughout history - most especially the US - it's the violent protests that have finally brought about the change. It's literally there, in history, and pointed out in the history of this thread somewhere too.

That is all well and good, but you asked what I was doing about it here in Ireland, and you stated I might not care because it did "not affect me".


I have not once asked you or others what you were doing, because it was not my business to intrude nor dictate what you should do.


I dont not tell people how they should react to the current situations, if people want to protest, that is their right, but I do not agree with violent protests.

Stateofyou

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I'm saying they are disproportionately overrepresented in rates of violent crime, which has a far greater impact on their communities than bad cops.

Downplaying this and trying to shift blame to outside elements does nothing to address that fact. The factors that have discriminated against black, and other poor communities, absolutely need to be dealt with, but police reform isn't going to stop black criminals killing other black people. The arguments from BLM are external in focus, blaming white people, the government, whomever for their issues.

Everything in that post is demonstrably false. As has already been raked over all throughout this thread.

Overheal

Overheal wrote: »

Sure if the irish family unit was fatherless because they criminalized drinking you bet.

Criminalized drinking? What are you on about?

Eric Cartman

Deleted User wrote: »

Criminalized drinking? What are you on about?

he's trying to equate that black fathers are only absent all the time because they do something harmless and normal that the justice system criminalised as an excuse to lock them up.

now Im not sure if he's trying to suggest that they're being locked up for some shocking law I don't know about , or if he's trying to say gun violence and drug dealing are on par with having a pint.

Stateofyou

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

That is all well and good, but you asked what I was doing about it here in Ireland, and you stated I might not care because it did "not affect me".


I have not once asked you or others what you were doing, because it was not my business to intrude nor dictate what you should do.


I dont not tell people how they should react to the current situations, if people want to protest, that is their right, but I do not agree with violent protests.

I asked what you are doing about it here because you were critical of "protests" in the US. I mentioned that racism exists everywhere including here, too. You've said nothing has gotten better, it's gotten worse, and that there is nothing that can be done and will always be this way long after we're in our graves. You ASKED me what I would have you do!!! So I told you. Jaysus, and you accuse me of being illiterate? You display apathy, indifference and judgment all over this post using flippant words like "whitey" and all of a sudden you reveal racism has impacted your family. Well if racism impacts your family and therefore you personally, I don't understand why you're not more understanding of the feelings and rage and anger at a people who have been violently oppressed for more than 400 years.
Would you be willing to talk a bit more about your family's experience with racism?
For the record, you can ask me what I'm doing about it if you like. I think we should hold people in our lives accountable (not sure if boards counts, ha ha) but, in general. And I'm doing all the things I listed above and more. Still learning, and always will.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

Criminalized drinking? What are you on about?

I'm saying that if british plantionists had criminalized different aspects of the irish way of life (going to the pub etc) then yeah they would have transformed them into a 2nd class of criminals.

AbusesToilets

Stateofyou wrote: »

Everything in that post is demonstrably false. As has already been raked over all throughout this thread.

Please, do demonstrate for the class.

Stateofyou

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Please, do demonstrate for the class.

It's been raked. All over this thread. Do read back and save us all another vicious, repetitive cycle. And seeing as you made those claims, it's for you to demonstrate that any of that is true.

Justin Credible Darts

Stateofyou wrote: »

I asked what you are doing about it here because you were critical of "protests" in the US. I mentioned that racism exists everywhere including here, too. You've said nothing has gotten better, it's gotten worse, and that there is nothing that can be done and will always be this way long after we're in our graves. You ASKED me what I would have you do!!! So I told you. Jaysus, and you accuse me of being illiterate? You display apathy, indifference and judgment all over this post using flippant words like "whitey" and all of a sudden you reveal racism has impacted your family. Well if racism impacts your family and therefore you personally, I don't understand why you're not more understanding of the feelings and rage and anger at a people who have been violently oppressed for more than 400 years.
Would you be willing to talk a bit more about your family's experience with racism?
For the record, you can ask me what I'm doing about it if you like. I think we should hold people in our lives accountable (not sure if boards counts, ha ha) but, in general. And I'm doing all the things I listed above and more. Still learning, and always will.

you again chose to omit the word violent.


I have countless times informed you, and each time you ignore it, I have no problem with peaceful protests, its peoples right.


My issue is with violent protests.


asking what have the protest achieved is not the same as saying people are not allowed protest.


which part of this are you really struggling to comprehend ?

AbusesToilets

Stateofyou wrote: »

It's been raked. All over this thread. Do read back and save us all another vicious, repetitive cycle. And seeing as you made those claims, it's for you to demonstrate that any of that is true.

So what is false?

That black people commit over 50% of murders and the majority of violent crime, despite being 13% of the population. Over 90% against other black people.

That more white people are killed by police than Black people.

That black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to kill blacks than white officers.

Which of those would be false?

2u2me

joe40 wrote: »

So why are so many out protesting. I'm not counting the opportunistic looters.

When charlottesville was being talked about on these boards many times in many threads the sentiment was always the same, if there were good people there on both sides, how come a man in a car killed a woman?

Why didn't people leave when they say the violence, etc..

The same argument can be applied here but it's not being done so by those same people. Once violence etc.. breaks out it's important to disassociate from it, condemn it and denounce it; all of which is not being done here.
We need to start counting them and denouncing them.

Is there an example of a police force or country anywhere in the world that could be classed as not racist?

Just for comparison who should the US police be aiming to emulate?

Who represents the gold standard?

Tell me how

2u2me wrote: »

When charlottesville was being talked about on these boards many times in many threads the sentiment was always the same, if there were good people there on both sides, how come a man in a car killed a woman?

Why didn't people leave when they say the violence, etc..

The same argument can be applied here but it's not being done so by those same people. Once violence etc.. breaks out it's important to disassociate from it, condemn it and denounce it; all of which is not being done here.
We need to start counting them and denouncing them.

Wrong.

I personally have said a number of times that violence is unacceptable and that anyone taking part in it is a criminal.

2u2me

Overheal wrote: »

well we aren't really diving into it are we it's just being talked about superficially. There's plenty of great references out there if you want. tldr its a very complicated issue that is not as simple as 'blacks are predisposed to be criminals'

Who is saying black people are predisposed to be criminals? That sounds racist it implies genetics, but what role has culture to play?

Importance of culture

This is often neglected

Overheal

2u2me wrote: »

Who is saying black people are predisposed to be criminals? That sounds racist it implies genetics, but what role has culture to play?

Importance of culture

This is often neglected

Quite a lot over 400 years.

Black men are more likely to be involved in violent crime than non black men. 13 percent......52 per cent.....yada yada.....

Similarly men are more likely to get into bad car accidents than women.

These things are statistical averages and do not say anything about individuals who should be judged on the content of their character.

MontgomeryClift

2u2me wrote: »

Who is saying black people are predisposed to be criminals? That sounds racist it implies genetics, but what role has culture to play?

Culture is just a term for group behaviour, which has its foundation in genetics, so genetics is still the issue.

ExMachina1000

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Black men are more likely to be involved in violent crime than non black men. 13 percent......52 per cent.....yada yada.....

Similarly men are more likely to get into bad car accidents than women.

These things are statistical averages and do not say anything about individuals who should be judged on the content of their character.

Yeah stats dont mean anything. They are just made up. Like when Homer Simpson said it

Justin Credible Darts

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Yeah stats dont mean anything. They are just made up. Like when Homer Simpson said it

Stats only seem to matter when they suit one side of an argument....if they do not suit, then just dismiss them


I think that is how it works