George Floyd dies after police knelt on his neck (MOD NOTE IN POST #1)

Timberrrrrrrr

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

and , of course, the officer themselves decides what constitutes "resisting arrest" and when the person needs shooting, yeah?

Doesn't look like he is resisting arrest here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZufLdykWKU

Scuid Mhór

Homelander wrote: »

Cannot get over how bizarre the whole situation is. Even if you could plead total ignorance on the part of the cop responsible, I cannot understand how other police at the scene didn't intervene.

Brings to mind the bystander effect (the Kitty Genovese case).

silverharp

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

New footage out from restaurant where he was arrested, dies t show him resisting at all.

this appears to be in the indefensible category for sure.

osarusan

splinter65 wrote: »

A lot of people posting on here hate the police/Gardaí so much that they honestly think that for merely becoming a police officer/Gardaí they deserve whatever is coming their way.
“Try to physically restrain me when I’m breaking one of your ridiculous made up laws? Prepare to get badly hurt or killed. Your laws don’t apply to me you facist pig.”

Truly moronic post.

TheIrishGrover

The country is really eating itself from the inside out. This happens. Countries (rightly or wrongly) feel threatened by outside sources, retreat inward, collapsing in on themselves. Becomes a nation of "Us versus them". Anything that "they" like it automatically becomes "Anti-Us".
The bigger problem is that that "them versus Us" turns inward.

In the case of the US you have a highly militarised police force and a highly militarised civilian population. You have a polarised media - Very little middle ground. It is shocking to see how skewed their news is in comparison to, say, the BBC. This is to BOTH extremes. There is very little straight-forward impartial media.

Trump is not a cause of this self-destruction. He is a symptom. He is a microcosm of the current mindset of large swathes of America: Fearful. Resentful, Harking back to a mythical 50's that never existed.

I spent almost 2 years in Minnesota in the late 98-2000 and I loved the place. The people were friendly, open (Albeit shockingly ignorant of the world outside of the US at times. Someone asked me how long it would take to drive to Paris. An intelligent person but just with no interest outside of the US unless it impacted the US). Optimistic. I'm not saying children were playing with rainbows with stars in their eyes but I cannot equate that US with its current fearful, narrow-minded, science-hating, isolationist backward-looking shadow.

I had planned on going over to visit friends. I kept in regular contact with them but over the years their tones changed from "Oh you must come over, we are saving to visit Europe. Want to see X Y X" to "We'd love to come over, no, don't want to visit there. Too many Muslims,. Nah, we wouldn't be able to drive anywhere 'cos you got those crazy tree-hugger laws there... Man, when is Ireland gonna leave Europe?I hear you guys have terrible problems with Immigrants. I hear Galway has nothing but Brazilians and they won't serve you in a shop unless you speak Brazilian"... So, yeah, no amount of convincing them worked so stopped communicating.

It is really sad to see a country I liked turn SO bitter.

splinter65

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Respectfully kneeling didn't work.

Putting your sister and your neighbor and all the other employees for example out of a job so they end up on welfare is going to work though. Having your neighborhood turn into a slum full of burned out buildings boarded up(the business owner will just reopen somewhere else) is going to work though. Can you show me an instance where looting and burning has ever produced a positive outcome?

Happyilylost

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Doesn't look like he is resisting arrest here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZufLdykWKU

After being taken from his car an and moved towards the wall how does he end up hunkered down against the wall before being picked up by the officer? How does he go from being led towards a cop car standing upright to lying on the ground with a clown pressing his knee into him till he dies? This may be in other footage i haven't seen if people have the answer to how it leads up to him having the clown with his knee on his neck.

wotzgoingon

Homelander wrote: »

Having just watched the 10 minute video I cannot at all fathom how this happened, and more so how it was allowed to happen by the other police at the scene.

He basically straight up murdered that guy in a calm and calculated fashion. He continues kneeling on his neck LONG after the guy is passed out, to the point of killing him.

Cannot get over how bizarre the whole situation is. Even if you could plead total ignorance on the part of the cop responsible, I cannot understand how other police at the scene didn't intervene.

He did murder him and he knew what he was doing.

One guy in handcuffs and 4 cops all they had to do is lift him up and put him in the back of the police car. But no knell on his neck for 10 minutes while he tells you he can't breathe pure straight up murder.

Guy:Incognito

splinter65 wrote: »

A lot of people posting on here hate the police/Gardaí so much that they honestly think that for merely becoming a police officer/Gardaí they deserve whatever is coming their way.
“Try to physically restrain me when I’m breaking one of your ridiculous made up laws? Prepare to get badly hurt or killed. Your laws don’t apply to me you facist pig.”

A lot of people here think muddying the waters by broadening the discussion to one of resisting arrest in general so that it'll put that seed in peoples minds that he might have been resisting , then times passes and that becomes the narrative, is the way forward.

Certainly gives you that "I was just having an innocent discussion" defence.

MeMen2_MoRi_

splinter65 wrote: »

Putting your sister and your neighbor and all the other employees for example out of a job so they end up on welfare is going to work though. Having your neighborhood turn into a slum full of burned out buildings boarded up(the business owner will just reopen somewhere else) is going to work though. Can you show me an instance where looting and burning has ever produced a positive outcome?

Can you produce and instance where the wrongful death at the hands of a cop has produced a positive outcome?

Guy:Incognito

silverharp wrote: »

this appears to be in the indefensible category for sure.

It was anyway. Even if he had been resisting before, by the time the first 10 minute video kicks off, hes face down, in cuffs with a guy kneeling on his neck. At that stage, whats he going to do to the 4 of them?

Coralcoras

splinter65 wrote: »

A lot of people posting on here hate the police/Gardaí so much that they honestly think that for merely becoming a police officer/Gardaí they deserve whatever is coming their way.
“Try to physically restrain me when I’m breaking one of your ridiculous made up laws? Prepare to get badly hurt or killed. Your laws don’t apply to me you facist pig.”

Ridiculous input. Reeks of warped viewing of situation.
I suspect that this type of emotional thought process underpins police brutality

seamus

silverharp wrote: »

it depends, if they resist arrest , police can shoot them all day long as far as I am concerned. If they comply they should be treated well

This is an hilariously privileged point of view.

If you had seen what constitutes "resisting arrest" in the US, you might think differently.

Your hands are cuffed in an uncomfortable position behind your back, the officer who has arrested you, is pulling you along by the crook of your elbow, causing severe discomfort if not actual pain.

Naturally, you try to adjust your arm a little to try and relieve the pressure. The officer feels this little "shrug", slams you to the ground, punches you in the back, kneels on your neck and tells you that you're now being charged with resisting arrest.

Apparently, according to you, the officer would be wholly justified to shoot you too.

Your entire point is based on the belief that when an arrest begins, it's a respectful conversation where the officer asks you nicely to accompany him to his car and puts on handcuffs only as a matter of process. Any escalation only occurs if you get violent or resist.
That's your blinkered, privileged existence.

If you're a minority in the US (or sometimes here in Ireland), your arrest will begin with violence. There's a good chance you'll be violently cuffed and pinned against a wall or a vehicle before they even tell you're being arrested. And if they decide they want to charge you with resisting arrest and rough you up a bit, then even the slightest shrug will be enough.

If you honeslty believe that "resisting arrest" is sufficient justification to kill a suspect, then you 100% support on-the-spot executions of any suspect based on a police officer's whim.

Homelander wrote: »

I cannot understand how other police at the scene didn't intervene.

Most countries do not reward snitches. Whistleblowers are not celebrated or thanked. In the US, they get charged with treason and thrown in jail.

None of the other officers spoke out either because they supported what was happening or because they knew that if they did, their career was over. It is a form of the bystander effect, but it's the same one that prevents people breaking up fights; self-preservation.

walshb

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

he didnt resist. they were kneeling on his neck for several minutes. 4 of them. he was arrested for writing a bad cheque not mass murder.

The video is reporting that he resisted arrest.

It doesn't matter what an arrest is for, the same dangers still can apply to police....

The person resisting arrest is still possibly a real threat to the officers....so, why they need to contain him and arrest him is irrelevant if he is resisting arrest.

Granadino

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

The country is really eating itself from the inside out. This happens. Countries (rightly or wrongly) feel threatened by outside sources, retreat inward, collapsing in on themselves. Becomes a nation of "Us versus them". Anything that "they" like it automatically becomes "Anti-Us".
The bigger problem is that that "them versus Us" turns inward.

In the case of the US you have a highly militarised police force and a highly militarised civilian population. You have a polarised media - Very little middle ground. It is shocking to see how skewed their news is in comparison to, say, the BBC. This is to BOTH extremes. There is very little straight-forward impartial media.

Trump is not a cause of this self-destruction. He is a symptom. He is a microcosm of the current mindset of large swathes of America: Fearful. Resentful, Harking back to a mythical 50's that never existed.

I spent almost 2 years in Minnesota in the late 98-2000 and I loved the place. The people were friendly, open (Albeit shockingly ignorant of the world outside of the US at times. Someone asked me how long it would take to drive to Paris. An intelligent person but just with no interest outside of the US unless it impacted the US). Optimistic. I'm not saying children were playing with rainbows with stars in their eyes but I cannot equate that US with its current fearful, narrow-minded, science-hating, isolationist backward-looking shadow.

I had planned on going over to visit friends. I kept in regular contact with them but over the years their tones changed from "Oh you must come over, we are saving to visit Europe. Want to see X Y X" to "We'd love to come over, no, don't want to visit there. Too many Muslims,. Nah, we wouldn't be able to drive anywhere 'cos you got those crazy tree-hugger laws there... Man, when is Ireland gonna leave Europe?I hear you guys have terrible problems with Immigrants. I hear Galway has nothing but Brazilians and they won't serve you in a shop unless you speak Brazilian"... So, yeah, no amount of convincing them worked so stopped communicating.

It is really sad to see a country I liked turn SO bitter.

You will most likely get plenty of (educated) people in Paris and Europe who wouldn't be able to point out Minnesota on a map of the US, so it can work both ways. Why would someone in Paris know where Minnesota is or need to know?
Though I know someone who only realised San Francisco was on the west coast of America when they were booking their first trip to the states. Is it not common knowledge where San Fran is?
I would guess that a fair amount of people in Europe would know where NY and LA is, or San Fran etc, but in between, you'd be asking them to throw a dart at a map I'd say.

walshb

osarusan wrote: »

Genuinely, what difference could it make? What sequence of events could have happened prior to the video that would mitigate the police treatment of him that we see on the video?

Whatever he might have done, he was handcuffed on the ground. There were 4 police officers there. He was no longer any kind of threat whatsoever.

This is the worst video I could imagine to use the 'we don't know what happened before' argument.

The level of force/restraint can depend on the situation and the individual that the police are dealing with

Had this man not resisted arrest at all and cooperated, then it is very likely he would not have been restrained like this....

It is very sad that he died, of course, but the police officers involved may have felt that the force needed was justified, given the circumstances...

I doubt that they wanted to kill him....

Granadino

walshb wrote: »

The level of force/restraint can depend on the situation and the individual that the police are dealing with

Had this man not resisted arrest at all and cooperated, then it is very likely he would not have been restrained like this....

It is very sad that he died, of course, but the police officers involved may have felt that the force needed was justified, given the circumstances...

I doubt that they wanted to kill him....

Putting your knee on his neck? He was already on the ground.

walshb

Granadino wrote: »

Putting your knee on his neck? He was already on the ground.

Yes. I agree. I am sure that the officer regrets this now, but at the time, he did what he felt was necessary.

If it transpires that the man was not at all resisting arrest then this is really bad...

If he was resisting arrest, it is sad, but there has to be some responsibility on the person resisting arrest as well...in this case.

Granadino

walshb wrote: »

Yes. I agree. I am sure that the officer regrets this now, but at the time, he did what he felt was necessary.

If it transpires that the man was not at all resisting arrest then this is really bad...

If he was resisting arrest, it is sad, but there has to be some responsibility on the person resisting arrest as well...in this case.

It wasn't necessary.

seamus

walshb wrote: »

It is very sad that he died, of course, but the police officers involved may have felt that the force needed was justified, given the circumstances...

Carry out an experiment there. Lie face down on the floor and hold your hands behind your back; eachhand holding the opposite wrist.

Now try to stand up quickly without releasing your hands.

Now tell me that a 90kg man kneeling on your neck is the most appropriate way of stopping you from standing up.

In fact, tell me that anything more than tying your feet together would be required in any circumstances.

Odhinn

walshb wrote: »

Yes. I agree. I am sure that the officer regrets this now, but at the time, he did what he felt was necessary.

If it transpires that the man was not at all resisting arrest then this is really bad...

If he was resisting arrest, it is sad, but there has to be some responsibility on the person resisting arrest as well...in this case.

Have you actually watched the footage?

ohnonotgmail

walshb wrote: »

The video is reporting that he resisted arrest.

It doesn't matter what an arrest is for, the same dangers still can apply to police....

The person resisting arrest is still possibly a real threat to the officers....so, why they need to contain him and arrest him is irrelevant if he is resisting arrest.

can you point to any video that SHOWS him resisting arrest? and if he was resisting arrest that would still not justify kneeling on his neck until he dies. i cant believe that some people need that explained to them

splinter65

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

nobody here thinks that. it is all in your fevered mind

No it’s not though. Minds not fevered at all either. Have no axe to grind at all.

MeMen2_MoRi_

walshb wrote: »

Yes. I agree. I am sure that the officer regrets this now, but at the time, he did what he felt was necessary.

If it transpires that the man was not at all resisting arrest then this is really bad...

If he was resisting arrest, it is sad, but there has to be some responsibility on the person resisting arrest as well...in this case.

For over 4 minutes of the video George is telling the cop he is struggling for breath, he then goes into a state of convulsions (serious lack of oxygen) then goes limp (dead/not breathing) for over a minute.. where in this scenario is he resisting arrest?


I can point to the moment were George loses his life, seconds before the POS pulls out his mace/pepper spray because the folks on the footpath go into panic mode because they see George is gone.

walshb

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can you point to any video that SHOWS him resisting arrest? and if he was resisting arrest that would still not justify kneeling on his neck until he dies. i cant believe that some people need that explained to them

I haven't seen all the footage, and nor has anyone.....

There will be an investigation here......there should be.

The video on page 1 of thread mentions a possible resisting arrest...

Reasonable force has to be allowed, and more force if required....

The kneeling police man restrained him completely by using his knee. He may have felt that this was the safest and best way to contain the man; unfortunately, the man died. The cops got it wrong.

splinter65

MeMen2_MoRi_ wrote: »

Can you produce and instance where the wrongful death at the hands of a cop has produced a positive outcome?

Are you trying to make some kind of analogy here? If you are it’s not very clear. Obviously an avoidable death at the hands of anyone is the worst possible outcome there could be.
Where I am confused is how you think burning down a business and putting people out of work and on welfare in response to the avoidable death is going to fix things.
You clearly think it will fix things, you just haven’t explained how.

osarusan

walshb wrote: »

If he was resisting arrest, it is sad, but there has to be some responsibility on the person resisting arrest as well...in this case.

The point is that the responsibility extends only so far. If you resist, you're more likely to get thrown to ground, maybe even punched and so on...and such things might be justified. Resisting arrest might give the police reason to be more phyiscal, maybe much more, but that only extends until any threat has been neutralised. It doesn't give them carte blanche to do what they like.

Whatever might have happened before, the situation had reached a point where Floyd was lying on the ground, handcuffed, with a knee on his throat.

Whether he had been resisting or not, and his resistance had merited him receiving some rough treatment or not, is no longer relevant. He has been restrained and handcuffed and is lying on the ground. He no longer represents any threat.

Even if you want to argue that he should bear some responisbility for getting rough treatment in arriving at that point, he doesn't bear any responsibility for anything from that point on.

MeMen2_MoRi_

walshb wrote: »

I haven't seen all the footage, and nor has anyone.....

There will be an investigation here......there should be.

The video on page 1 of thread mentions a possible resisting arrest...

Reasonable force has to be allowed, and more force if required....

The kneeling police man restrained him completely by using his knee. He may have felt that this was the safest and best way to contain the man; unfortunately, the man died. The cops got it wrong.

watch the 10 minute video, see if you still have the same thought process

walshb

osarusan wrote: »

The point is that the responsibility extends only so far. If you resist, you're more likely to get thrown to ground, maybe even punched and do on...and such things might be justified. Resisting arrest might give the police reason to be more phyiscal, maybe much more, but that only extends until any threat has been neutralised. It doesn't give them carte blanche to do what they like.

Whatever might have happened before, the situation had reached a point where Floyd was lying on the ground, handcuffed, with a knee on his throat.

Whether he had been resisting or not, and his resistance had merited him receiving some rough treatment or not, is no longer relevant. He has been restrained and handcuffed and is lying on the ground. He no longer represents any threat.

Even if you want to argue that he should bear some responisbility for getting rough treatment in arriving at that point, he doesn't bear any responsibility for anything from that point on.

Fair points

The police went too far here. They made a grave mistake. I don't think there was any intention to kill...

Happyilylost

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

can you point to any video that SHOWS him resisting arrest? and if he was resisting arrest that would still not justify kneeling on his neck until he dies. i cant believe that some people need that explained to them

This video from the restaurant is as clear as mud. The editing of it makes no sense. Can't understand why they couldn't just show the clip uninterrupted.

But as you say even if he took a hatchet to the officers nothing justifies the end result and the actions taken by the officer to kill the man.