Need some advice on my son

skooterblue2

riclad wrote: »

I don't think employers give a damn if someone worked a few weeks as a child aged 14
When he leaves school they will be looking at his leaving cert results.Does he have experience using certain apps, Ms office, spreadsheets excel etc from the age of 14 to 18 his brain is developing . You cannot expect a 14 year old to make adult decisions . It's not a good idea to force a child to do something , if he decides I need a bit extra money I'll work for a few weeks
That's a different manner
By the time he's 18 or leaving school the world will be a different place , he may decide to
go to university its too early to tell

Might teach him if he doesnt work hard at school he will be cutting cabbages for the rest of his life. Going back to the Author Robert Kiyosaki ("Rich dad poor dad"), you are an idiot working for other people (you probably need to read the book).

There are a lot of complains coming back from employers about soft skills and work skills to the universities.

There is nothing wrong with working doing manual labour at any age, it develops social skills and you learn about work.

Lefty Bicek

challengemaster wrote: »

Nobody said he's entitled to the full minimum wage of €10.10.

Said more than once, including four posts ago...

...he is getting paid half of what he is entitled to

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113633916&postcount=267

Four posts ago.

KiKi III

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Only one of us was scaremongering, and it wasn't me.

I pointed out a very real possibility, as I mentioned it happened with a gang of lads I went to school with. If you want to characterise that as scaremongering, that’s up to you.

I think painting it as a golden opportunity with no possible negative repercussions is naive.

ExMachina1000

GarIT wrote: »

Fair as in half assed as he is getting paid half of what he is entitled to?

Fight the power comrade.

Maybe he should join a union. Lol

Lefty Bicek

KiKi III wrote: »

I pointed out a very real possibility, as I mentioned it happened with a gang of lads I went to school with. If you want to characterise that as scaremongering, that’s up to you.

I think painting it as a golden opportunity with no possible negative repercussions is naive.

Your scaremongering lies in your selectivity.

It was YOU who said -

Lots of ways this can turn out.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=113632909

So tell us some of the other ways that you're referring to there ?

If there are LOTS of ways, your singling out a negative one, is transparently your bias.

Here's more of your scaremongering -

...drop out after Junior Cert for a job with few long-term prospects.

The rate of school-leaving after the Junior Cert in Ireland, is 12.3%, lower than the European average of 15.2%.

Of that 12.3%, how many do you think are because they got a taste of money doing a Summer job at 14, to then get unskilled work for quick money ?

As opposed to a myriad other more pressing socio-economic disadvantages and factors ?


Big difference between your 'very real possibility', and the actual probability.

KiKi III

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Your scaremongering lies in your selectivity.

It was YOU who said -



https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=113632909

So tell us some of the other ways that you're referring to there ?

If there are LOTS of ways, your singling out a negative one, is transparently your bias.

Here's more of your scaremongering -



The rate of school-leaving after the Junior Cert in Ireland, is 12.3%, lower than the European average of 15.2%.

Of that 12.3%, how many do you think are because they got a taste of money doing a Summer job at 14, to then get unskilled work for quick money ?

As opposed to a myriad other more pressing socio-economic disadvantages and factors ?


Big difference between your 'very real possibility', and the actual probability.

You need to just get over the fact that some people disagree with you on this.

noodler

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Criticism =/= abuse.
Criticism is exactly what the Op asked for.
Abuse is something that offending posters would have been reported and moderated for. I don't remember posters getting carded or banned, do you?

Yeah, someone went through the OP poster history to try and use his own mental issues against him.

It was fairly disgusting.

noodler

challengemaster wrote: »

Nobody said he's entitled to the full minimum wage of €10.10. For his age he's entitled to €7.07/ph. Not the illegal suggestion of €5/ph.

Christ, illegal.

Yeah, he should really hardball the Godfather with regard to the cushy number job that was established for him.

challengemaster

noodler wrote: »

Christ, illegal.

Yes, illegal. Unless you have any other interpretation of paying below the legal minimum wage.

illegal
/ɪˈliːɡ(ə)l/

contrary to or forbidden by law

Mark Hamill

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Might teach him if he doesnt work hard at school he will be cutting cabbages for the rest of his life.

OP already said that he works hard without any push from his parents (gets good grades in school and excels in GAA and football).

skooterblue2 wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with working doing manual labour at any age, it develops social skills and you learn about work.

And OP said that he will be working largely by himself, outside or in a warehouse.

Did anyone fully supporting the OP actually read what he said about his son and the job, or do they just assume his son was a dole scrounger who has never gotten away from his xbox?

Mark Hamill

noodler wrote: »

Yeah, someone went through the OP poster history to try and use his own mental issues against him.

It was fairly disgusting.

Someone looked at the OPs other posts because the OP was fairly reticent with details, and to see if they might give an insight into how the OP might be approaching their son. Reminding them of their own relevant past and personality is helpful, or at least is to someone who is mature enough to admit they might be wrong.


This attitude that you can never reference something else someone said is ludicrous.

Apply that to your kids - lets say your kid does something wrong, according to you, and others, it would be disgusting to refer to any other time they did something similar wrong and adjust your reaction (or their punishment) appropriately.

Apply it to your work - Your boss calls you in after you make a mistake:
"I'm sorry noodler, but we have to let you go"
"But why?"
"Well yesterdays mistake wasn't the first mistake you've made and we have to let you go"
Would you really say "It's disgusting that you are using my past against me, you have to assess each and every mistake completely in isolation".

beauf

an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Some people really never got over being asked to tidy their room and cut the grass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLuEY6jN6gY

KiKi III

beauf wrote: »

Some people really never got over being asked to tidy their room and cut the grass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLuEY6jN6gY

I’d be very much in favour of a 14 year old having chores like this around the house. Nothing worse than a young lad arriving home from college at the weekend with a bag full of laundry for mammy. Kids should absolutely be doing chores at that age and maybe pocket money tied to it.

Being sent out to work in a job you don’t want for crap money is different.

beauf

KiKi III wrote: »

I’d be very much in favour of a 14 year old having chores like this around the house. Nothing worse than a young lad arriving home from college at the weekend with a bag full of laundry for mammy. Kids should absolutely be doing chores at that age and maybe pocket money tied to it.

Being sent out to work in a job you don’t want for crap money is different.

Like most people I work in my dream job.

Like most people the experience in my parents salt mine under the whip was of great value. In preparing me for this dream job.

skooterblue2

KiKi III wrote: »

I’d be very much in favour of a 14 year old having chores like this around the house. Nothing worse than a young lad arriving home from college at the weekend with a bag full of laundry for mammy. Kids should absolutely be doing chores at that age and maybe pocket money tied to it.

Being sent out to work in a job you don’t want for crap money is different.

That would be Dr Temple Grandins line of thinking to.

Very few people in life get that dream job. Working a crap job is great when you are young because it focuses you to work out with amazing speed what you do want to do. I have done warehouse picking for a summer and I HATED it. IT motivates you not to go back there again and find something better. €7 an hour isnt crap money for a 14 year old. I was working for £8 a day 30 years ago and grateful for it!!!!

Lefty Bicek

KiKi III wrote: »

You need to just get over the fact that some people disagree with you on this.

Discussion with people we disagree with is not uncommon on a discussion board, and hardly something to be 'got over'.

I'm not obliged to agree with anyone.

'Deal with it', as yourself might say.

Lefty Bicek

Mark Hamill wrote: »

OP already said that he works hard without any push from his parents (gets good grades in school and excels in GAA and football).


And OP said that he will be working largely by himself, outside or in a warehouse.

Did anyone fully supporting the OP actually read what he said about his son and the job, or do they just assume his son was a dole scrounger who has never gotten away from his xbox?

Just in case all the employment law enthusiasts on your side of the house miss the glaring use of hyperbole there...

... there's no dole for 14-year olds.

Mark Hamill

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Just in case all the employment law enthusiasts on your side of the house miss the glaring use of hyperbole there...

... there's no dole for 14-year olds.

So you saw the hyperbole I used on purpose, pointed it out and patted yourself on the back, but didn't even attempt actually answer the point raised. Well done :rolleyes:.

Lefty Bicek

Mark Hamill wrote: »

So you saw the hyperbole I used on purpose, pointed it out and patted yourself on the back, but didn't even attempt actually answer the point raised. Well done :rolleyes:.

Tells you all you need to know about what I think of your 'point'.

But to remove doubt - your point about hard work in school and sport is irrelevant to what I see as the real and different benefit to be gained by a Summer job - the experience of employment. I've already elucidated on what I see as the big, big difference between 'work' and 'employment'.

Whatever your 'point' about being outside and/or alone is, who knows ? Of interest only to Health and Safety drudges, probably. Is the young lad made of sugar or what ?

As for your hyperbole - if you play that card, shouldn't you expect a little gentle chiding in return ?

(I'm now patting myself on the back for having a better sense of humour than you as well.)

Mark Hamill

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Tells you all you need to know about what I think of your 'point'.

But to remove doubt - your point about hard work in school and sport is irrelevant to what I see as the real and different benefit to be gained by a Summer job - the experience of employment. I've already elucidated on what I see as the big, big difference between 'work' and 'employment'.

Whatever your 'point' about being outside and/or alone is, who knows ? Of interest only to Health and Safety drudges, probably. Is the young lad made of sugar or what ?

As for your hyperbole - if you play that card, shouldn't you expect a little gentle chiding in return ?

(I'm now patting myself on the back for having a better sense of humour than you as well.)

Instead of trying to be "funny", maybe you could try and keep up with what is being discussed? The poster I responded to said the following:

skooterblue2 wrote:

Might teach him if he doesnt work hard at school he will be cutting cabbages for the rest of his life.

skooterblue2 wrote:

There is nothing wrong with working doing manual labour at any age, it develops social skills and you learn about work.

The OP said the kid works hard and the job would be largely by himself, contradicting both of those assertions.
People are ignoring the OPs description of his kid and are just assuming that the kid is a layabout. It's almost as if some posters didn't even read the kids age and are assuming he is a 19 or 20 year old dole scrounger.

As for gaining a benefit from employment, well I've been employed in various jobs and have been in education up to PhD level over the last 20 years and the only difference in "school" and "employment" is in the person doing them. I never treated them any different - you are given work and you do it or you get in trouble (extra homework, fail a course, get fired). Needing to work under your imperative was not something I needed to learn, not something everyone needs to learn and not something the OPs kid seems to need to learn.

Lefty Bicek

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Instead of trying to be "funny", maybe you could try and keep up with what is being discussed? The poster I responded to said the following:

In no need of assistance on that score. No need for your superciliousness, just because I haven't the kind of regard for your PhD-level opinion that you think it warrants.

People are ignoring the OPs description of his kid and are just assuming that the kid is a layabout.

I don't speak for other posters, and don't fall into the category of assuming anything other than the boy is 14, as the OP says. I've said so.

Just not as impressed with your 'deliberate' hyperbole as you would wish.

As for gaining a benefit from employment, well I've been employed in various jobs and have been in education up to PhD level over the last 20 years and the only difference in "school" and "employment" is in the person doing them.

So what ?

The distinction I made was not between 'school' and 'employment', rather it was between 'work' and 'employment'.

So maybe you could take your own advice -

maybe you could try and keep up with what is being discussed?

I never treated them any different - you are given work and you do it or you get in trouble (extra homework, fail a course, get fired). Needing to work under your imperative was not something I needed to learn, not something everyone needs to learn and not something the OPs kid seems to need to learn.

BS

In a nutshell, there is NO meaningful comparison between on the one hand, the disciplines of employment as experienced by most people; and on the other hand, the disciplines of ether undergrad or postgrad study.

Mark Hamill

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

In no need of assistance on that score. No need for your superciliousness, just because I haven't the kind of regard for your PhD-level opinion that you think it warrants.

You clearly do, as you have not been paying regard to what other posters were saying and who I responding to. If you think that what I said (about assuming the boy is like a dole scrounger) doesn't apply to you, then might that be because I wasn't responding to you or aiming it at you?

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I don't speak for other posters, and don't fall into the category of assuming anything other than the boy is 14, as the OP says. I've said so.

Just not as impressed with your 'deliberate' hyperbole as you would wish.

The OP didn't just say that the boy is 14, he also said that he gets good marks in school and excels in GAA and football. Maybe you should try to fall into the category of reading everything that is being said?

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

So what ?

The distinction I made was not between 'school' and 'employment', rather it was between 'work' and 'employment'.

So maybe you could take your own advice -

BS

In a nutshell, there is NO meaningful comparison between on the one hand, the disciplines of employment as experienced by most people; and on the other hand, the disciplines of ether undergrad or postgrad study.

No, not BS.
Oh, it might be a nice notion that some people have, that their going straight into work means they are better than those who "hid" in school. Or, to be fair, the opposite that some others hold that their degree means they are better than those who couldn't stick out school.
But, in reality, both are just empty headed arrogance born from insecurity and ignorance. The work you do in school/college and the work you do out of college is all work. You can learn the same life lessons from it all, if you are interested. Self-initiative; self-discipline; dealing with other people.
The specific environments are different, but many different specific work environments are different from each other too. Farming is very different to locksmithing. A masters in physics is going to be different from a PhD in archaeology.

Have you been to university?

Lefty Bicek

Mark Hamill wrote: »

You clearly do, as you have not been paying regard to what other posters were saying and who I responding to. If you think that what I said (about assuming the boy is like a dole scrounger) doesn't apply to you, then might that be because I wasn't responding to you or aiming it at you?

Really, the comment I made was a dig at all the 'employment law' drones, not just you. In advance of being asked, 'no' I don't think it is a big deal if the young lad is doing something that is not strictly within the terms of the relevant legislation. It isn't Dickensian chimney-sweeping, I presume.

The OP didn't just say that the boy is 14, he also said that he gets good marks in school and excels in GAA and football. Maybe you should try to fall into the category of reading everything that is being said?

More of your unwarranted superior tone.

You might think that the extra-curricular stuff is sufficient that an experience of employment would add nothing. I disagree with the assumption, but since it wasn't central to my point anyway, I didn't refer to it.

... The work you do in school/college and the work you do out of college is all work. You can learn the same life lessons from it all, if you are interested. Self-initiative; self-discipline; dealing with other people.
The specific environments are different, but many different specific work environments are different from each other too. Farming is very different to locksmithing. A masters in physics is going to be different from a PhD in archaeology.

The paragraph above starts out all about the similarities, but effortlessly becomes about the differences.

Take it from someone who has seen a vast spectrum of both work and employment - the differences are what counts.

Going training with your pals is not the same as clocking on and off.

Have you been to university?

I'm delighted you asked me that. Bearing in mind your petty aside in this very post...

Maybe you should try to fall into the category of reading everything that is being said?

Perhaps take your own advice ?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113575150&postcount=112

Mark Hamill

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

More of your unwarranted superior tone.

You might think that the extra-curricular stuff is sufficient that an experience of employment would add nothing. I disagree with the assumption, but since it wasn't central to my point anyway, I didn't refer to it.

It is central to my post so why aren't you responding to it?

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

The paragraph above starts out all about the similarities, but effortlessly becomes about the differences.

Take it from someone who has seen a vast spectrum of both work and employment - the differences are what counts.

Going training with your pals is not the same as clocking on and off.

The paragraph is about how the differences do not matter, as there are as much differences between school and employment as there are between two different employments. Farming is not the same as locksmithing.

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I'm delighted you asked me that. Bearing in mind your petty aside in this very post...

Mark Hamill wrote:

Maybe you should try to fall into the category of reading everything that is being said?

If you find that petty then I have to question what kind of life lessons you actually learned in years of work.

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Perhaps take your own advice ?

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113575150&postcount=112

Forgive me for missing something you said 10 days ago. What's your excuse for ignoring what I said 2 days ago?

Andrew00

Make him work on the building sites or something. Needs to learn skills

Mark Hamill

You quotes yourself, so I'm going to respond to it here.

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

I work just as hard at my hobbies and interests as at my job. That is my way, and I have no patience with messers or people not dedicated to something.

Employment requires my dedication as well, but on someone else's time, not my own, and on their terms, not mine.

That is a big, big difference. It's a skill worth having.

Why do you assume the OP's son doesn't have this skill?
Don't most people get this skill from school anywhere? It's where I got it. It's the same situation a what you describe - you are there under someone else's time and terms (your classes and tests are set for you).

Mark Hamill

Andrew00 wrote: »

Make him work on the building sites or something. Needs to learn skills

What skills?

antgal23

Noddy Nangle wrote: »

Hi there

My son turned fourteen as couple of weeks ago. The pandemic has been hard on him as we live in the country and he hasn’t seen many of his friends over the past few months. Instead he stayed connected online or through his phone which to be honest was a god send as it occupied him from boredom. Anyways the other day I managed to get him a job for a couple of days a week with a friend of mine so that he can begin to learn life skills and develop a work ethic. When I told him first he told me that he wasn’t doing it and gradually over the past few days this has become a real issue and yesterday I took his xbox and phone from him, his reaction was to go mental and we haven’t really spoken to him since. I never lost my temper with him and I told him I was doing this because I loved him but he point blank refused to listen. It really hurts me to do this to my son but I think that he need to go to work for social interaction and to learn the lessons of life, the Xbox doesn’t provide these lessons. Any advice ??

UPDATE - Many thanks for all of the advice and it’s much appreciated. Just to clarify a few things that came up in the comments.

1) I had spoken with him throughout this year to coax him to get a little job for himself and be independent but was always met with a “no”. Therefore I pushed on and asked my friend (who is the child’s godfather) to help me out. I told him would he let him do two days a week and I suggested to give €40 per day. Just to compare when I first started working at 14 I was paid £40 per week for five full days. My friend cares for the welfare of my son and would look after him whilst helping to introduce him to doing some light work.
2) The job doesn’t involve meeting the public and would be mainly working outdoors or in a warehouse with no machinery involved. The job is located about 500 metres from our house along a back road so he could walk or cycle to work and even come home for lunch if he wanted.
3) To those that think I am bullying him then I just want to say that you are wrong. I am trying to prepare him for adulthood. This has nothing to do with either the work or the money. He will still have plenty of time to enjoy his friends and his summer.

I am also conscious that we are living in strange times and I don’t want him to be cut off from his friends so at lunchtime I told him that I am proud of him as a son and his has made me proud many times as he grew up. But I told him that myself and his Mam were very disappointed in him for refusing to take the job. I said that he can have either the phone or his Xbox back but only one and he has to tell me which one, but whatever one he doesn’t pick with not be given back to him. If he changes his mind on the job then he can have both. I think it’s the best I can do.

Sorry to hear your story but fair play for taking the initiative. Wouldn't take much need of peeps here giving out, your the adult and you are responsible for your son's development. Going through a similar situation with my 12 yr old boy.

He is addicted to Fortnite and covid has made it worse ( no school, sport etc)

My son has unlimited access to his phone - as do the adults in the house.

1/ He has 3.5 hours a day on PS4, this is timed.

2/ no homework done = no PS4

3) Y'day he went 20 mins over his time despite polite requests by me to leave - he didn't and lost PS4 and phone for a day

4/ Future breaking of 3.5 hour rule = loss for a day or two of all devices

So, anything my son wants is conditional on him doing certain things. Expectations and rules are clear and fair.

He argues with me and Mrs and throws aggressive tantrums, I allow this but sometimes he needs to know I am the adult male in the house, not by violence but by a gentle reminder who pays the bills.

Advice: Be clear, be fair, be strong, be patient

Lefty Bicek

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Forgive me for missing something you said 10 days ago. What's your excuse for ignoring what I said 2 days ago?

I have no problem with you missing what I said ten days ago.

It puts your advice and the tone of voice you delivered it in, into perspective though.

I'm not ignoring what you said two days ago. At the moment, I am not able to specifically search your posts on the thread as I normally would, due to some search issues with the site -

503
Unfortunately the backend returned an error and could not fulfill this request. Please try again or return to the homepage.

Whatever that means.

Lefty Bicek

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why do you assume the OP's son doesn't have this skill?
Don't most people get this skill from school anywhere? It's where I got it. It's the same situation a what you describe - you are there under someone else's time and terms (your classes and tests are set for you).

Not making any assumption that he has or hasn't anything. That's your construction.

You can find parallels between school, work, and employment if you want to.

The value of the parallel is limited.

Otherwise, people would easily transition from one to the other.

In the real world, many employers, managers, and older co-workers find quite the opposite.

That is the fact of the matter.