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Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

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    #842
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    SeanW wrote: »
    A road usage tax paid by motorists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax

    Technically known as "Motor Tax."

    No it actually an emissions based motor tax, not all based on road usage, its based on how much polution we produce.

    Roads are paid for by general taxation.


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    #843
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    No..it's a tax paid by people who have a Private motor. Using the road is optional. I pay €750 per year for my car. My wife pays €280! That's why I hurl abuse at her every time I pass her on the road! :)

    I pay only €56 for my 911, you should abuse all people in classic cars , clearly you are more entitled to the road than they are.


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    #844
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Chiparus wrote: »
    I pay only €56 for my 911, you should abuse all people in classic cars , clearly you are more entitled to the road than they are.

    Agree with you. Classic cars have no business on our roads! Roads are for hardworking taxpayers only! Like cyclists, classic car drivers should take their "hobby" somewhere else! ;)


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    #845
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    No..it's a tax paid by people who have a Private motor. Using the road is optional. I pay €750 per year for my car. My wife pays €280! That's why I hurl abuse at her every time I pass her on the road! :)
    It has nothing to do with motor ownership. If a motor vehicle is not on the road, it is not liable for "motor" tax. You pay to use the roads with a motor vehicle, that's why people call it road tax. This is true whether the car was first registered before July 2008 (in which the bands are calculated based on engine CC) or after (in which case, it's based on CO2/km figures).

    Of course, you may want to be very precise with your legal terminology, like how the Sean O'Casey bridge (and every other footpath in the State) is legally a footway, for the exclusive use of pedestrians and ... oh snap ...

    Or how (on the books at least) red lights are supposed to instruct all road vehicles (including bicycles) to stop and wait, so cyclists always stop and wait there and ... umm ... uhhh ...

    Come to think of it, maybe cyclists aren't really qualified to tell anyone to refer to the legal terminology.


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    #846
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Agree with you. Classic cars have no business on our roads! Roads are for hardworking taxpayers only! Like cyclists, classic car drivers should take their "hobby" somewhere else! ;)

    Road tax ( full rate-) payers only you mean.


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    #847
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    SeanW wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with motor ownership. If a motor vehicle is not on the road, it is not liable for "motor" tax. You pay to use the roads with a motor vehicle, that's why people call it road tax. This is true whether the car was first registered before July 2008 (in which the bands are calculated based on engine CC) or after (in which case, it's based on CO2/km figures).

    Of course, you may want to be very precise with your legal terminology, like how the Sean O'Casey bridge (and every other footpath in the State) is legally a footway, for the exclusive use of pedestrians and ... oh crap ...

    Or how (on the books at least) red lights are supposed to instruct all road vehicles[/S] (including bicycles) to stop and wait ... ah S@#%.

    that's correct. Red lights mean stop, footpaths are for peds only.

    Did you think I didn't know that?


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    #848
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Road tax ( full rate-) payers only you mean.

    Eh yeah...as long as I get to drive on MY road uninterrupted! After all, I've paid in full goddamnit! :)


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    #849
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    SeanW wrote: »
    It has nothing to do with motor ownership. If a motor vehicle is not on the road, it is not liable for "motor" tax. You pay to use the roads with a motor vehicle, that's why people call it road tax.
    curious, i own five vehicles which i use on the road and they are not liable for 'road' tax. i do own another vehicle which i use on the road which is liable for the tax, and i can't just think of what makes that different from the other vehicles, which would lead me to believe that the term 'motor' tax is the more apt one.


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    #850
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    curious, i own five vehicles which i use on the road and they are not liable for 'road' tax. i do own another vehicle which i use on the road which is liable for the tax, and i can't just think of what makes that different from the other vehicles, which would lead me to believe that the term 'motor' tax is the more apt one.
    I'm guessing the other four are in an exempt category.
    07Lapierre wrote: »
    that's correct. Red lights mean stop, footpaths are for peds only.

    Did you think I didn't know that?
    Most cyclists regard these rules as (at best) suggestions.

    "Motor tax" is the legal name for the tax motorists must pay to put a motor vehicle on the road. But given that it is a road tax, many motorists call it this colloquially.

    Footways AFAIK are the legal term for paths designed solely for the use of pedestrians, but most cyclists treat them as cycle lanes.

    An illuminated red on a set of traffic lights - in theory - instructs all road vehicles to stop and wait, but cyclists treat them (at best) as yield signs.

    My point is, there's a difference between what something is on paper, and what it actually is in practice. Like motor/road tax.


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    #851
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    SeanW wrote: »
    I'm guessing the other four are in an exempt category.
    not sure if serious...
    i'll assume not. they are bicycles, so not 'exempt' per se.


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    #852
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,218 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    SeanW wrote: »
    A road usage tax paid by motorists.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_tax

    Technically known as "Motor Tax."

    No, it technically doesn't exist.

    I too often dabble in motoring, (beep beep, get outta my way and all that) and haven't been asked to pay this thing called road tax in order to do so.


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    #853
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    SeanW wrote: »

    Most cyclists road users regard these rules as (at best) suggestions.

    "Motor tax" is the legal name for the tax motorists must pay to put a motor vehicle on the road.

    Footways AFAIK are the legal term for paths designed solely for the use of pedestrians, but some cyclists treat them as cycle lanes.

    An illuminated red on a set of traffic lights instructs all road users to stop.

    My point is, the total lack of enforcement by the Gardai has resulted in almost all road users ignoring the ROTR.

    FYP


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    #854
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Hurrache wrote: »
    No, it technically doesn't exist.

    I too often dabble in motoring, (beep beep, get outta my way and all that) and haven't been asked to pay this thing called road tax in order to do so.
    So if your car is going to be off the road, you do not file a SORD? (Statutory Off Road Declaration).


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    #855
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    from a mail i got just last week, some random pullquotes

    Motor Tax reminder for your SKODA OCTAVIA
    Motor Tax / Cáin Mótar
    Dear MR RANDOM PLACEHOLDER,This is your motor tax reminder
    Motor tax for your BLACK SKODA OCTAVIA expires on the last day of June 2020
    If you have sold the vehicle, you can check the progress of the transaction on the motor tax web site, www.motortax.ie
    The pin for online renewal on the Motor Tax Website is 123456
    f you have a query regarding our service, please email our customer support team at motortax@dttas.ie. This is our only customer support email address. Alternatively you can access our frequently asked questions on www.motortax.ie.

    etc. etc.
    there are 13 references to it being motor tax. the only mention of the word 'road' is in relation to declaring it off the road.
    they seem fairly insistent that it's motor tax.


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    #856
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Eh yeah...as long as I get to drive on MY road uninterrupted! After all, I've paid in full goddamnit! :)

    Imagine if you paid the top rate €2350 you could make everyone get out of your way ...Beep..Beep:D


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    #857
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    The smug attitude in this thread explains a lot why the cycling facilities are where they are in this country. I bet the condescending preaching about the difference between road or motor tax won you many supporters.

    And before I get accused of being cyclist hater, the only place where cyclists annoy me is Boards.


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    #858
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    meeeeh wrote: »
    The smug attitude in this thread explains a lot why the cycling facilities are where they are in this country.
    weird. a huge number of motorists are dangerous assholes, yet the word used recently in government formation talks recently about (some incredibly expensive) planned road projects is that they are 'sacrosanct'.
    but a few obstreperous cyclists are enough to prevent the development of decent cyclinf facilities.

    cyclists have way more power than we realise.


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    #859
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    weird. a huge number of motorists are dangerous assholes, yet the word used recently in government formation talks recently about (some incredibly expensive) planned road projects is that they are 'sacrosanct'.
    but a few obstreperous cyclists are enough to prevent the development of decent cyclinf facilities.

    cyclists have way more power than we realise.

    One of those sacrosanct road projects would mean that my kids can cycle to school when the road is built. They can't now. But yeah feel free to continue with condescending bs if you feel it will get you results.


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    #860
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    from a mail i got just last week, some random pullquotes

    Motor Tax reminder for your SKODA OCTAVIA
    Motor Tax / Cáin Mótar
    Dear MR RANDOM PLACEHOLDER,This is your motor tax reminder
    Motor tax for your BLACK SKODA OCTAVIA expires on the last day of June 2020
    If you have sold the vehicle, you can check the progress of the transaction on the motor tax web site, www.motortax.ie
    The pin for online renewal on the Motor Tax Website is 123456
    f you have a query regarding our service, please email our customer support team at motortax@dttas.ie. This is our only customer support email address. Alternatively you can access our frequently asked questions on www.motortax.ie.

    etc. etc.
    there are 13 references to it being motor tax. the only mention of the word 'road' is in relation to declaring it off the road.
    they seem fairly insistent that it's motor tax.
    Correct. You pay tax on your car if, and then because, it is on the road. Ergo, it's a road tax.


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    #861
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i pay property tax on my house, which is built on soil, ergo it is a soil tax.


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    #862
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i pay property tax on my house, which is built on soil, ergo it is a soil tax.
    If you didn't have the house, you'd presumably pay a lot less property tax - if you'd even pay any - on just the site.

    Some jurisdictions have a Land value tax or Site valuation tax. Ireland does not. Your property tax is on the combined value of the land and building.

    And your car is taxed on road usage.


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    #863
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    SeanW wrote: »
    Correct. You pay tax on your car if, and then because, it is on the road. Ergo, it's a road tax.

    You don't have to pay Motor tax...you choose to pay it. It's not like the bleedin TV license, which according to the to ad is "a fact of life when living in Ireland" Grrrrr!


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    #864
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i pay motor tax on my motor because it is mine.
    i pay property tax on my property because it is mine.
    i pay income tax on my income because it is mine.
    i do not own the road, therefore i do not pay road tax.

    you know where cyclists are coming from on this though; you understand the objection.
    'i pay road tax' is a blunt instrument some/many motorists use to try to claim a greater right to use the road than cyclists. it's a tired, inaccurate argument, and just results in eyerolling from cyclists (many of whom are also paying motor tax anyway)


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    #865
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    Chiparus wrote: »
    Imagine if you paid the top rate €2350 you could make everyone get out of your way ...Beep..Beep:D

    I find most of those people pass me on the M50! Not that their speeding you understand! No, because I move over and allow them pass! ;)


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    #866
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    SeanW wrote: »
    And your car is taxed on road usage.
    but i can use the road without using my car?
    confused now. am i not paying a tax i should be?


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    #867
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,299 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    There are cycle paths. I do cycle on them. Otherwise, I cycle on the road.

    If anyone is cycling, then can go around me if I'm walking on the foothpath.

    If I'm walking across the road as the traffic light man is green, I'll walk across the road, and look at the cyclist as he suddenly has to stop; I'm finding more cyclists are breaking the red light than usual these days.


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    #868
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,818 ✭✭✭SeanW


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    You don't have to pay Motor tax...you choose to pay it. It's not like the bleedin TV license, which according to the to ad is "a fact of life when living in Ireland" Grrrrr!
    Great, I'll let it expire and tell that to the guards when they stop me in my car ... NOT!
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i pay motor tax on my motor because it is mine.
    So, if your car is going to be off the road, you continue to pay the tax and don't file an SORD form?
    i pay property tax on my property because it is mine.
    i pay income tax on my income because it is mine.
    Correct.
    i do not own the road, therefore i do not pay road tax.
    No, but you do pay to use the roads in your car. Ergo, you pay the Irish form of road tax.
    you know where cyclists are coming from on this though; you understand the objection.
    I understand there's a bunch of self-important, sanctimonious, wannabe censors, who are trying to police language 1984 style. I don't like that.


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    #869
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Is it just me that thinks this thread now should be shot in the face?


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    #870
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    SeanW wrote: »
    I understand there's a bunch of self-important, sanctimonious, wannabe censors, who are trying to police language 1984 style. I don't like that.
    i'd agree with you Seth, yeah.


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    #871
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    SeanW wrote: »

    I understand there's a bunch of self-important, sanctimonious, wannabe censors, who are trying to police language 1984 style. I don't like that.

    Tough.


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