Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

Chiparus

I think that is changing, and drivers ( which includes most cyclists) are being protrayed as the selfish ones.

Pinch Flat

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Couple in their 20s killed on the roads today after crashing into at truck. 3 x RIP comments on the Journal and it's been up for hours.
If that had involved a cyclist there'd be 100s of comments now saying "Ah this is always going to happen the way they behave on the roads".
Can someone please explain why no one cares about road deaths and are more concerned with cyclists on pavements?

Because we live in a car centric country. And victim blaming. People seem to love this.

Thelonious Monk

Pinch Flat wrote: »

Because we live in a car centric country. And victim blaming. People seem yo love this.

I'd say it's because everyone breaks the rules in their cars and knows the dangers so they just shut up because they know they're guilty of speeding etc. too.

magicbastarder

Hurrache wrote: »

The facts that show that people in cars are worse offenders for law breaking. It's that simple.

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that i reckon that if you were to tally every single instance of a law being broken in this country - whether detected or not - over the course of a day, that in pure numbers, motorists would account for *easily* over half of them.
probably the vast majority; they're probably the easiest ones to get away with and with the most opportunities to do so.

TaurenDruid

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that i reckon that if you were to tally every single instance of a law being broken in this country - whether detected or not - over the course of a day, that in pure numbers, motorists would account for *easily* over half of them.
probably the vast majority; they're probably the easiest ones to get away with and with the most opportunities to do so.

No. It's definitely snooker players.

Wait - cyclists! I mean they're on the roads, where all the crime takes place, according to you - but they have no number plates to identify themselves!

Obvious when you think about it.

FACT!

Pinch Flat

TaurenDruid wrote: »

No. It's definitely snooker players.

Wait - cyclists! I mean they're on the roads, where all the crime takes place, according to you - but they have no number plates to identify themselves!

Obvious when you think about it.

FACT!

So, regiatration plates being the answer then on clamping down on those pesky cyclists? Seems to be working for cars.

Charles Babbage

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that i reckon that if you were to tally every single instance of a law being broken in this country - whether detected or not - over the course of a day, that in pure numbers, motorists would account for *easily* over half of them.
probably the vast majority; they're probably the easiest ones to get away with and with the most opportunities to do so.

Yes, there are more motorists, but the rate of delinquency is much higher for cyclists who are far and away the most irresponsible class of road users and the ones least likely to suffer any sanction for their actions. Hundreds of motorists are penalised every day, and rightly so, I doubt if the number of cyclists sanctioned reaches double figures.

07Lapierre

More kids should cycle to school right?...


https://twitter.com/edwardlamb/status/1273287751128006661?s=21

magicbastarder

Charles Babbage wrote: »

but the rate of delinquency is much higher for cyclists

True, you can see it by the number of people cyclists kill every year.

micar

Charles Babbage wrote: »

the rate of delinquency is much higher for cyclists who are far and away the most irresponsible class of road users.

Typical view from the majority of motorists.

Some cyclist are irresponsible.

Some motorists are irresponsible .

It's the irresponsible behaviour of motorists that has the most devastating impact on our roads.

You need to get this in your head.

Article from Irish Times from August 2017 detailing fines issued to cyclist from 2015.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cyclists-given-1-660-on-the-spot-fines-over-past-two-years-1.3202608?mode=amp

AndrewJRenko

SeanW wrote: »

=
Because cyclists who complain about lawbreaking are mostly a bunch of two-faced hypocrites. Either make sure your own house is in order before you point at others, or take a chill pill. Whichever, either is fine by me.

But I despise two faced hypocrites.

You'd wanna take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror. 'Get your own house in order' when motorists are killing two or three people each week.

Ah lad, come on.

SeanW wrote: »

=
We learn very quickly as a survival skill to "negotiate" with two-wheeled lawbreakers in daily life. That's the reason that hypocritical cyclists don't hurt or kill more people. We're watching for you.

Any chance you could teach that survival skill to the drivers who get crash into other drivers with alarming regularity? It's amazing how you have these great survival skills to avoid collisions with cyclists, but not when it comes to collisions with other motor vehicles.

AndrewJRenko

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Yes, there are more motorists, but the rate of delinquency is much higher for cyclists who are far and away the most irresponsible class of road users

Is the rate of delinquency for cyclists higher than the 98% of motorists breaking urban speed limits in the RSA Speed Survey?

Those 98% of motorists really give the good 2% an awfully bad name.

Either way, the rate of delinquency is entirely irrelevant. This isn't some kind of purity contest to see who's best.

This is about saving lives on the road. It's not cyclists that kill 2 or 3 people each week.

AndrewJRenko

1 sheep2 wrote: »

It's not in the slightest. There is a clear difference between encountering a parked car and a moving cyclist whose motives are unclear.

Motorists run red lights (something that frustrates me endlessly) only at the very beginning of their phases. Given the number of cars on the road, it is exceedingly rare to see a car break a light outside of that. Cyclists, on the other hand, frequently cut across pedestrians long after the pedestrian light has gone green.

Hey Sheep - do you remember telling us how motorists break lights 'only at the very beginning of their phases'.

https://streamable.com/m3qr9b

Now tell me, what's the odds that this incident, seen this week, filmed, uploaded and posted by one of the participants on this thread is really an 'exceedingly rare event'?

If you think those odds are good, I hope you bought a lotto ticket tonight.

AndrewJRenko

Hurrache wrote: »

This one is for Andrew

https://twitter.com/gardainfo/status/1273149224931274753

They got fairly hammered on Twitter for their parking, in fairness. It really seems like there is a turning tide against carbage like this.

SeanW wrote: »

Which "facts" are these? The facts that show that road fatalities in Ireland are among the lowest in the world, provably so, by every relative measure?

I think he was referring to the facts that drivers in Ireland kill 2 or 3 people each week and maim many more.

SeanW wrote: »

Not a "state of permanent fear" but rather a need for a relaxed awareness. If you aren't watching out for two-wheeled lawbreakers, you WILL be involved in a nasty accident. The risk is tolerable, but it is there.

Is there any chance you could share this 'relaxed awareness' skill to drivers so they can stop getting killed by other drivers?

magicbastarder wrote: »

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say that i reckon that if you were to tally every single instance of a law being broken in this country - whether detected or not - over the course of a day, that in pure numbers, motorists would account for *easily* over half of them.
probably the vast majority; they're probably the easiest ones to get away with and with the most opportunities to do so.

Just think for a minute about the vast amounts of resources - policy makers, legislators, safety authorities, Gardai, Courts Service and prison that are required solely because drivers can't be arsed with obeying the law.

If you could wave a magic wand and make all cars automatically comply with legislation overnight, think of the huge cost savings to the State with all the resources not required or available for an actual productive use.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Couple in their 20s killed on the roads today after crashing into at truck. 3 x RIP comments on the Journal and it's been up for hours.
If that had involved a cyclist there'd be 100s of comments now saying "Ah this is always going to happen the way they behave on the roads".
Can someone please explain why no one cares about road deaths and are more concerned with cyclists on pavements?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/truck-driver-who-broke-red-light-and-fatally-struck-pedestrian-is-jailed-1.4281642

Truck driver blows through a red light, kills a pedestrian, drives off thinking he had bumped a kerb apparently, gets a year in jail.

If you ever want to kill someone, do it from behind the wheel of a car - minimal penalty will arise.

Hurrache

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Yes, there are more motorists, but the rate of delinquency is much higher for cyclists who are far and away the most irresponsible class of road users and the ones least likely to suffer any sanction for their actions.

Why keep trotting out this fallacy when the facts say otherwise?

Hurrache

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Truck driver blows through a red light, kills a pedestrian, drives off thinking he had bumped a kerb apparently, gets a year in jail.

If you ever want to kill someone, do it from behind the wheel of a car - minimal penalty will arise.

I read that story last week when it first came up in court and what stood out at the time was the number of his previous convictions, and he could have been banned off the road and the pedestrian likely would be alive today.

Too many drivers get away with a slap on the hand by judges and it's time laws took such discretion away from judges.

Aibangbe has nine previous convictions including four for road traffic offences. He was in court the week earlier for driving without insurance and failing to display an NCT.

He was fined €400 for those offences and the judge exercised his discretion not to disqualify him from driving on that occasion.

AndrewJRenko

Hurrache wrote: »

I read that story last week when it first came up in court and what stood out at the time was the number of his previous convictions, and he could have been banned off the road and the pedestrian likely would be alive today.

Too many drivers get away with a slap on the hand by judges and it's time laws took such discretion away from judges.

I missed that bit. FFS.

micar

Hurrache wrote: »

I read that story last week when it first came up in court and what stood out at the time was the number of his previous convictions, and he could have been banned off the road and the pedestrian likely would be alive today.

I thought of his employer when I read this .

Not sure if his employer has some questions to answer here.

SeanW

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You'd wanna take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

You first.

Any chance you could teach that survival skill to the drivers who get crash into other drivers with alarming regularity? It's amazing how you have these great survival skills to avoid collisions with cyclists, but not when it comes to collisions with other motor vehicles.

Nice deflection. :cool:

Hurrache wrote: »

Why keep trotting out this fallacy when the facts say otherwise?

Have you ever tried crossing Sean O'Casey bridge on foot?

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Hey Sheep - do you remember telling us how motorists break lights 'only at the very beginning of their phases'.

https://streamable.com/m3qr9b

Now tell me, what's the odds that this incident, seen this week, filmed, uploaded and posted by one of the participants on this thread is really an 'exceedingly rare event'?

If you think those odds are good, I hope you bought a lotto ticket tonight.

The exception does not disprove the rule. The poster you are responding to is not the only one to observe red light jumping by motorists being mainly at the beginning of the red phase. I've been a daily pedestrian in Ireland's main cities for years and have seen much the same.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is the rate of delinquency for cyclists higher than the 98% of motorists breaking urban speed limits in the RSA Speed Survey?

Those 98% of motorists really give the good 2% an awfully bad name.

And yet, all that "urban speed limit" breaking and Ireland is still comfortably in the bottom 20 for road deaths by every relative measure. Why is that?

I've given a good explanation for why this might be the case, you haven't disputed it.

Either way, the rate of delinquency is entirely irrelevant. This isn't some kind of purity contest to see who's best.

Good for you. When your position is that of a two-faced hypocrite, who holds others to absurd standards while avoiding any responsibility of their own, it is indeed a good idea not to make it a "purity contest". Doesn't change the fact that Irish drivers don't deserve the level of opprobrium displayed here.

This is about saving lives on the road. It's not cyclists that kill 2 or 3 people each week.

Again, which safely puts Ireland well within the bottom 20 for road fatalities. Clearly, correct decisions are being made. Decisions by policymakers to build motorways to accommodate fast, long distance traffic. Decisions by motorist not to drink-drive. Generally good obedience of traffic controls (stop signs, yield signs etc).

Duckjob

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Hundreds of motorists are penalised every day, and rightly so, I doubt if the number of cyclists sanctioned reaches double figures.

I know, weird right ?

It's almost like the gardai are deliberately focussing more of their attention on the behaviors and transport modes most closely linked to people being killed and injured on our roads !

Hurrache

SeanW wrote: »

Have you ever tried crossing Sean O'Casey bridge on foot?

Not just the one, with both.

AndrewJRenko

SeanW wrote: »

You first.

I guess the difference is that I'm not the one defending the group of road users that are killing two or three people each week.

SeanW wrote: »

Nice deflection. :cool:

Isn't it a fair question though? If y'all have developed these amazing super-powers to allow you to not get murdered by the terrorist cyclists, could you not apply these same powers to not getting killed by motorists?

SeanW wrote: »

Have you ever tried crossing Sean O'Casey bridge on foot?

Yeah, the cyclists who were on it at the time steered around me. No-one died. Unlike Irish roads today.

SeanW wrote: »

The exception does not disprove the rule. The poster you are responding to is not the only one to observe red light jumping by motorists being mainly at the beginning of the red phase. I've been a daily pedestrian in Ireland's main cities for years and have seen much the same.

The poster responded to didn't say 'only at the very beginning of the red phase'. They said that anything other than the first seconds of the red phase was an 'exceedingly rare event'. What's the odds of me capturing an 'exceedingly rare event' on camera a few days later? Seriously, what are the odds?

SeanW wrote: »

And yet, all that "urban speed limit" breaking and Ireland is still comfortably in the bottom 20 for road deaths by every relative measure. Why is that?

We must have different definitions of 'comfortable'. Killing 2 or 3 people each week isn't very comfortable in my view.

SeanW wrote: »

Good for you. When your position is that of a two-faced hypocrite, who holds others to absurd standards while avoiding any responsibility of their own, it is indeed a good idea not to make it a "purity contest". Doesn't change the fact that Irish drivers don't deserve the level of opprobrium displayed here.

So complying with the law and not killing 2 or 3 people is an 'absurd standard'? Gotcha.

Any examples of those 'unavoidable collisions' spring to mind for you yet?

You seem to be taking this very personally. Why's that?

micar

SeanW wrote: »

Again, which safely puts Ireland well within the bottom 20 for road fatalities.

Clearly, correct decisions are being made. Decisions by policymakers to build motorways to accommodate fast, long distance traffic.

Decisions by motorist not to drink-drive. Generally good obedience of traffic controls (stop signs, yield signs etc).

2/3 deaths per week are ok and acceptable??????

Passenger killed in car driven by someone who took their parents car with permission.

Pedestrian hit by car and killed.....the driver failed to stop

2 people killed today with the lorry driver arrested.

Great decisions being made there

All these deaths were completely preventable.

magicbastarder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/truck-driver-who-broke-red-light-and-fatally-struck-pedestrian-is-jailed-1.4281642

Truck driver blows through a red light, kills a pedestrian, drives off thinking he had bumped a kerb apparently, gets a year in jail.

If you ever want to kill someone, do it from behind the wheel of a car - minimal penalty will arise.

was just reading this. i find it hard to comment; he killed someone, fled the scene, and got a suspended sentence.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda-who-left-the-scene-of-fatal-crash-he-caused-is-spared-jail-1.4280950

Pinch Flat

Irish times Facebook page has a story about a segregated cycle route from blackrock to the 30 foot. Being put in 20 years after it was planned. No comments yet.

Any ideas on comments? I'll start off.

"The don't even use the cycle lanes provided"

Anyone else?

Hurrache

During construction of the Luas cross city, such was the extent of drivers breaking the bus lane restrictions that the NTA had to pay the overtime of an already overstretched Gardai to enforce it in order to allow construction work stick to schedule and the buses to run properly.
In one month a traffic count registered 500 vehicles, daily, breaking the bus lane restrictions.

Similar action had to be then taken to stop taxis abusing the restrictions on them, i.e. being ignored.

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1273365095360405506?s=19

SeanW

So complying with the law and not killing 2 or 3 people is an 'absurd standard'? Gotcha.

micar wrote:

2/3 deaths per week are ok and acceptable??????

The international data tells us two key things:

• That people will always die on the roads. There's nothing to be done about it except to minimise those numbers. Zero fatalities isn't reasonably attainable. There will always be, to use AJRs loaded terminology "motorists killing X people per week" that will never change.
• Given that a zero standard is not attainable, Irish motorists should be compared with international motorists. Compared to both their European and Global counterparts, Irish drivers do not cause fatalities in large numbers. Our policymakers built motorways to segregate traffic types. Our culture does not glamourise drink-driving like it did in the 70s. Obedience of traffic controls is reasonably good. Crazy s*** like people just pulling out of nowhere or stopping in the motorway for no reason (see my earlier videos on China and Vietnam) is rare.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I guess the difference is that I'm not the one defending the group of road users that are killing two or three people each week.

Which makes Irish motorists among the best in the world at avoiding road fatalities. Provably so. And by a wide, comfortable margin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Isn't it a fair question though? If y'all have developed these amazing super-powers to allow you to not get murdered by the terrorist cyclists, could you not apply these same powers to not getting killed by motorists?

When this thread started, it was about cyclists. Guess who hijacked it?

Yeah, the cyclists who were on it at the time steered around me. No-one died. Unlike Irish roads today.

I'm guessing there were at least 4 cyclists (excluding yourself?) and after all, the signs stating "no cycling" were not big enough, or clear enough.

The poster responded to didn't say 'only at the very beginning of the red phase'. They said that anything other than the first seconds of the red phase was an 'exceedingly rare event'. What's the odds of me capturing an 'exceedingly rare event' on camera a few days later? Seriously, what are the odds?

Pedantry. "exceedingly rare" vs "unusual" there's not much difference.

Now, as a pedestrian, I wish motorists would not jump reds just after the light changes because that often leaves them still on the junction when I've got the green man, but it doesn't change the fact that motorists RLJing a "stale" red are the exception, not the rule. And on the handful of occasions I did see a motorist doing that, they didn't cut off anyone.

AndrewJRenko

Another good reason for hi-vis for all cars - to make it easier to find them and rescue them from the sea.

https://twitter.com/aaroadwash/status/1273340368369696770?s=19

Anyway, it's interesting to hear the results of the testing of autonomous cars in Galway isn't going well. There's no mention of a driver in the article, so it must be an autonomous vehicle, right?

Is this one of Sean's 'unavoidable accidents'?

Pinch Flat

Ha loving that AA parody site. Following.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Couple in their 20s killed on the roads today after crashing into at truck. 3 x RIP comments on the Journal and it's been up for hours.
If that had involved a cyclist there'd be 100s of comments now saying "Ah this is always going to happen the way they behave on the roads".
Can someone please explain why no one cares about road deaths and are more concerned with cyclists on pavements?

https://www.thejournal.ie/trinity-college-request-dublin-city-council-cycling-walking-5126303-Jun2020/

Case in point. Already banging on about cyclists on footpaths. No one gave a sh*t about a young couple dying on the roads yesterday though. It's just bizarre.