Cycling on paths and other cycling issues (updated title)

magicbastarder

Beta Ray Bill wrote: »

That would involved the average motorist having to look at themselves in the mirror... and that's not going to happen.

it's shouldn't be themselves they're looking out for when they check their mirrors. i'm here all week.

meeeeh

Hurrache wrote: »

I'll let you into a secret, it used to be a legal obligation to use a cycle lane if one was provided here too. But sense prevailed.

Oh right the country I mentioned has no sense. That's why for example is Ljubljana among the most cycle friendly cities in the world (despite dropping a bit) and Dublin is not.

magicbastarder

not sure if serious. it's kinda trivial that a country with **** cycling infrastructure would (sensibly) not have a law enforcing the use of that infrastructure.
Ljubljana probably has that law precisely because they've made proper provision for cyclists.

SeanW

07Lapierre wrote: »

Hes referring to the total number of road deaths per year, not just cyclists.
148 deaths in 2019.

https://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Fatal%20Collision%20Stats/Provisional_Reviews_of_Fatal_Collisions/RRD_Res_20191231_RSAProvisionalReviewFatalities31December2019_03Jan2020.pdf

Correct. In 2018 Ireland suffered 149 road fatalities. That was among the lowest in the world by every relative measure. If you are in Ireland, you have an approximately 99.99625% of surviving us motorists every year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

It's also near the lowest in Irish history, figures in the 100-200 range have not been seen since the 1940s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_traffic_accidents_deaths_in_Republic_of_Ireland_by_year

Irish drivers are not terrible. That's an indisputable fact. That doesn't stop sanctimonious two-wheeled hypocrites from hijacking every discussion with: bUt mOtOrIsTs aRe kIlLiNg eVeRyBoDy

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

After decades of commuting by bike and causing no problems whatsoever for anyone, I'm just sick to teeth of every discussion on cycling in all media becomes a tirade against people just trying to get around. It's ridiculous.

Firstly, there have been at least half a dozen routine pedestrians in this thread who can attest to the fact that Irish cyclists DO cause problems. And yet this entire thread has been a circle jerk of Andy and his fellow two-wheeled hypocrites crapping all over motorists ...

It really shouldn't be difficult to figure out why everyone hates you.

So you'd be in favour of increased regulation of motorists and motorcyclists to address the worrying death toll on the roads, presumably?

Mandatory tachographs for all, mandatory annual training, mandatory retesting every 3-5 years?

Well, you and your friends certainly are. Yet the data does not back it up.

In the United States, where drivers are subject to a once-in-a-lifetime road test, they lose over 39,000 people every year. That's much worse by every relative measure than Ireland, but pales in comparison to medical error, which is the third leading cause of death in the US, despite the fact that it's a lot harder to become (and to maintain status as) a doctor than a driver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_error
In spite of all that extra regulation and testing, 250,000 people die of medial error in the US, which puts that cause in the Top 3 of causes of death in the US.

All of this of course in addition to evidence of countries with much more stringent driver licensing laws like Canada also suffering more fatalities on their roads than Ireland.

So much for all that extra testing and regulation. :rolleyes:

DoraDelite

magicbastarder wrote: »

not sure if serious. it's kinda trivial that a country with **** cycling infrastructure would (sensibly) not have a law enforcing the use of that infrastructure.
Ljubljana probably has that law precisely because they've made proper provision for cyclists.

Agree, thought it was pretty strange to compare a city that was ranked 8th in the world for being most cycle friendly in 2017 to Dublin :rolleyes:

https://www.wired.com/story/world-best-cycling-cities-copenhagenize/

Cycle friendly implying that there is actual infrastructure there, not painted lines and shared bus lanes.

meeeeh

DoraDelite wrote: »

Agree, thought it was pretty strange to compare a city that was ranked 8th in the world for being most cycle friendly in 2017 to Dublin :rolleyes:

https://www.wired.com/story/world-best-cycling-cities-copenhagenize/

Cycle friendly implying that there is actual infrastructure there, not painted lines and shared bus lanes.

They are bit lower now. However if you ever cycle around Ljubljana I can guarantee you will be sitting at the traffic lights waiting for them to turn green as will everyone else. If you make a traffic offence as a cyclist there is a lot more likely you will be fined or warned (you are supposed to carry an ID). There is a good chance you will be breathalyzed if they think you are cycling erratically and so on. My point is that with more people cycling comes better infrastructure but also better road behavior expected by cyclists. Yet here the response to anything is but drivers, but potholes, but it's hard to stop at the lights and so on... It's all about the infrastructure and nothing about the behavior.

DoraDelite

meeeeh wrote: »

They are bit lower now. However if you ever cycle around Ljubljana I can guarantee you will be sitting at the traffic lights waiting for them to turn green as will everyone else. If you make a traffic offence as a cyclist there is a lot more likely you will be fined or warned (you are supposed to carry an ID). There is a good chance you will be breathalyzed if they think you are cycling erratically and so on. My point is that with more people cycling comes better infrastructure but also better road behavior expected by cyclists. Yet here the response to anything is but drivers, but potholes, but it's hard to stop at the lights and so on... It's all about the infrastructure and nothing about the behavior.

That is fine, I could also guarantee that if the cyclist in Ljubljana are more likely to be fined etc then you could be damn sure their motorist would too. I would rather we start from the top down with enforcement rather than picking off the small fry that would make a negligable difference. In fact start with the Matthews bus drivers who seem to have a default speed of 80kmh in 50kmh zones in the city centre and also don't seem to know the width of their vehicles.

As for infrastructure, if we keep refusing to build it, we will ever get the people we want out cycling. The current state of cycling in Dublin is only for the brave and assertive and it will remain so with each irrational objection to building segregated and safe cycling infrastructure.

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

Correct. In 2018 Ireland suffered 149 road fatalities. That was among the lowest in the world by every relative measure. If you are in Ireland, you have an approximately 99.99625% of surviving us motorists every year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

It's also near the lowest in Irish history, figures in the 100-200 range have not been seen since the 1940s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_traffic_accidents_deaths_in_Republic_of_Ireland_by_year

Irish drivers are not terrible. That's an indisputable fact. That doesn't stop sanctimonious two-wheeled hypocrites from hijacking every discussion with: bUt mOtOrIsTs aRe kIlLiNg eVeRyBoDy

I never said Irish drivers are terrible?

Those 149 who died. I'm sure their families are happy to know they died on some of the safest roads in the world.

07Lapierre

meeeeh wrote: »

They are bit lower now. However if you ever cycle around Ljubljana I can guarantee you will be sitting at the traffic lights waiting for them to turn green as will everyone else. If you make a traffic offence as a cyclist there is a lot more likely you will be fined or warned (you are supposed to carry an ID). There is a good chance you will be breathalyzed if they think you are cycling erratically and so on. My point is that with more people cycling comes better infrastructure but also better road behavior expected by cyclists. Yet here the response to anything is but drivers, but potholes, but it's hard to stop at the lights and so on... It's all about the infrastructure and nothing about the behavior.

IMO good cycling behaviour and good cycling infrastructure go hand in hand. But getting good cycling infrastructure should not be dependent on good cyclist behaviour. If we applied the same to motorists, we wouldn't have any Motorways etc.

meeeeh

07Lapierre wrote: »

IMO good cycling behaviour and good cycling infrastructure go hand in hand. But getting good cycling infrastructure should not be dependent on good cyclist behaviour. If we applied the same to motorists, we wouldn't have any Motorways etc.

I grew up in the country. Enforcement was always quite strict (we had to carry cycling licence as kids) and infrastructure wasn't always there. Enforcement is probably more due to larger volume of traffic and larger numbers of people cycling and not because infrastructure is that great. (BTW There is not much fuss about hi viz as far as I know but helmets are mandatory for kids.) Driving culture is worse there than here. Speeding only improved in last decade or so and drink driving (and drink cycling) is still a problem.

SeanW

07Lapierre wrote: »

I never said Irish drivers are terrible?

Those 149 who died. I'm sure their families are happy to know they died on some of the safest roads in the world.

You might not have said Irish drivers are terrible, but taking a dump on Irish motorists has been basically the theme of this thread.

As to the stats being cold comfort to bereaved families, there's some truth to that. It doesn't change the facts however.

Hurrache

SeanW wrote: »

You might not have said Irish drivers are terrible, but taking a dump on Irish motorists has been basically the theme of this thread.

How have you still not realised that most, if not all, of us strong, sexy and extremely fit and handsome cyclists are also motorists?

SeanW

And yet you all post like some horrible evil motorist stole your lunch money and locked you in the closet when you were a kid.

While deflecting from any discussion about cyclists on footpaths or sailing through red lights. Go figure.

Hurrache

SeanW wrote: »

And yet you all post like some horrible evil motorist stole your lunch money and locked you in the closet when you were a kid.

Amongst us aesthetically pleasing card carrying members of the cycling lobby, we know those type of people as an ugly, physically and mentally for the horrible things they do.

SeanW

No idea what that even means. But hey, if it distracts from lawbreaking cyclists breaking red lights and menacing pedestrians on the footpaths, go for it :rolleyes:

Stark

SeanW wrote: »

You might not have said Irish drivers are terrible, but taking a dump on Irish motorists has been basically the theme of this thread.

"Oh noes. People keep interrupting my taking a dump on Irish cyclists thread to take a dump on Irish motorists" :rolleyes:

SeanW

Remind me again who started this thread and what were the contents of the OP? Did the OP mention motorists?

As to taking a dump on Irish cyclists, it's just remind the hypocrites like Andy that they're in no position to call other people names.

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

You might not have said Irish drivers are terrible, but taking a dump on Irish motorists has been basically the theme of this thread.

As to the stats being cold comfort to bereaved families, there's some truth to that. It doesn't change the facts however.

You definitely hate cyclists. Nobody has defended cyclists who cycle on the pavement! It's wrong, it's illegal and it clearly annoys people ( especially you)

Tell me, the 149 people killed on our roads last year, how many of them would still be alive today if there were no cyclists on our roads?

SeanW

Well, if that 149 had been in another country, they would been 200+. But what gets me about Andy and his circlejerk (and to be clear, I'm not including you in this per-se) is the hypocrisy. "No no, let's not talk about cyclist misbheaviour 98% OF MOTORISTS ARE LAWBREAKING SCUM!! WE NEED MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF OBSCENE OVERREGULATION ON MOTORISTS BECAUSE THEY'RE KILLING EVERYBODY!!"

When you see this as a response to any criticism of cyclist lawbreaking, you have to wonder if there's not some kind of deflection going on.

FinnC

07Lapierre wrote: »

Nobody has defended cyclists who cycle on the pavement! It's wrong, it's illegal and it clearly annoys people ( especially you)

In fairness plenty on here have defended it and tried to justify it! Dont ask me for names of who as I have no idea of anyones usernames as I don't look at them.

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

Well, if that 149 had been in another country, they would been 200+. But what gets me about Andy and his circlejerk (and to be clear, I'm not including you in this per-se) is the hypocrisy. "No no, let's not talk about cyclist misbheaviour 98% OF MOTORISTS ARE LAWBREAKING SCUM!! WE NEED MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF OBSCENE OVERREGULATION ON MOTORISTS BECAUSE THEY'RE KILLING EVERYBODY!!"

When you see this as a response to any criticism of cyclist lawbreaking, you have to wonder if there's not some kind of deflection going on.

There is no comparison between cyclists lawbreaking and motorists lawbreaking. They are chalk and cheese. IMO the only deflection is motorists trying to defend their driving by trying to blame other road users for their own deaths.

Hurrache

Sean seems to be getting pretty stressed about this. A relaxing cycle would help him unwind.

SeanW

It seems your side should go for a nice long cycle to unwind. It took Little Andy only 6 minutes to jump down a pedestrians throat with "BUT LOOK AT MOTORISTS" not long ago.

SeanW

07Lapierre wrote: »

There is no comparison between cyclists lawbreaking and motorists lawbreaking. They are chalk and cheese. IMO the only deflection is motorists trying to defend their driving by trying to blame other road users for their own deaths.

Nobody's trying to blame cyclists for road deaths. Nevertheless, Irish drivers are generally not dangerous. The data on that is clear.

But there is a lot of deflection ...

07Lapierre

FinnC wrote: »

In fairness plenty on here have defended it and tried to justify it! Dont ask me for names of who as I have no idea of anyones usernames as I don't look at them.

Defended it or explained it? Cycling on the pavement is illegal but I understand why some people do it. I've no issue with kids, the elderly or anyone who is nervous cycling in traffic using the pavement.

Have you looked at the type of bike lanes we have in this country? Some are on the pavement, some are just painted lanes on the road. Some are a mix of the two. Some are one way, some are contra flow etc. Etc. It's a mess out there!

A lot of people have nothing but bad experiences when cycling on the road! Close passes, verbal abuse etc. ... no wonder people cycle on the pavement.

Hurrache

SeanW wrote: »

It seems your side should go for a nice long cycle to unwind.

I'll propose it to our lobby's event planning department.

07Lapierre

SeanW wrote: »

But there is a lot of deflection ...

Yep... Road tax, hi viz, helmets, no plates for bikes, a test for cyclists etc. Etc.

micar

Hurrache wrote: »

Sean seems to be getting pretty stressed about this. A relaxing cycle would help him unwind.

Nothing worse that some using capital letters to make a point........shouty, shouty, shouty

SeanW

Remind me again, what was the OP? And how did it go from a pedestrian complaining about lawbreaking cyclists to: BuT MoToRiStS BrEaK MuH SpEeD LiMiTs?

monument

SeanW wrote: »

Remind me again who started this thread and what were the contents of the OP? Did the OP mention motorists?

As to taking a dump on Irish cyclists, it's just remind the hypocrites like Andy that they're in no position to call other people names.

The thread has moved on (by posters of different views) and the topic has been updated. If you cannot accept that, please don't post again.

-- moderator