How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

NIMAN

downcow wrote: »

Yes you can continue to aspire, and try to lift your self esteem, by trying to convince yourselves that you were in control the process. John Hume was very intelligent and realised that you were defeated but that you needed some sort of face-saving exercise. He didn't get you very much but then he didn't need to because beggars cannot be choosers

Can I ask who you mean when you use the term 'yourselves' in this context?

downcow

NIMAN wrote: »

Can I ask who you mean when you use the term 'yourselves' in this context?

the ira and their mates

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The IRA that was so heavily infiltrated it was defeated argument, when it suits, and the IRA that is still operating and pulling the strings in Sinn Fein when that argument suits.

Do us a favour downcow...convene a meeting of Unionists and get the story straight will you...it has long since become a stale pivot point for a weak weak argument. Trimble trotting it out is just pathetic.

I think you must have missed this bit
"You can say as many times as you like that the Unionists lost, but we have got absolutely everything that we had 25 years ago, and you have got absolutely nothing that you and the IRA aspired towards."

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think you must have missed this bit
"You can say as many times as you like that the Unionists lost, but we have got absolutely everything that we had 25 years ago, and you have got absolutely nothing that you and the IRA aspired towards."

So why have the Unionists been the belligerents since the GFA was signed...to the extent that YOUR government had to go above your wee loyal heads to give rights to all of the people. Why have they kicked and railed against flegs, parades and the creation of what everyone else in these islands call a normal society?
Why are you in siege mode here anytime anyone mentions the implications and inevitable outcomes of the GFA.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I don't know how to do the fancy quotes so I can just list my answers.

It is a bit simplistic to say that it was set in 1995. Here is Gerry's IRA boss saying it 20 years later in front of Gerry.s mural https://bostoncollegesubpoena.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/bobby-storey-martin-mcguinness-at-adams-arrestsinn-fein-election-rally-west-belfast

The full quote:

''The reason we are here this afternoon, is because of the surge of Sinn Fein across this island. This is to do with the establishment North & South recognising the development of Sinn Fein across the island. We have a message for the British Government, for the Irish Government, for the cabal that is out there - we ain't gone away you know.

The quote is a reference to Sinn Fein who have not gone away. Sinn Fein is a perfectly legal political party and I don't see what is wrong with saying that they are staying the course and are not going to go away.



Maybe you might explain what your issue is with this.

.... And you think this is okay to say. "equality...... - that’s the trojan horse of the entire republican strategy.”

Go back and read that article I linked to. It gives several examples of what he meant by that quote.

You say it does not matter whether jury was in the IRA not. If Boris had been a paratrooper on bloody Sunday, would you say that was irrelevant when he was making decisions Northern Ireland?

What decisions is jury (presumably you mean GA) making? He is not the British PM. He is not the Taoiseach. He is in fact retired now.



Peter Robinson, Gregory Campbell and Sammy Wilson I think have had fairly dubious relationships with loyalist paramilitaries and we all have had to live with them.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I think you must have missed this bit
"You can say as many times as you like that the Unionists lost, but we have got absolutely everything that we had 25 years ago, and you have got absolutely nothing that you and the IRA aspired towards."

Well, I for one am delighted that unionists have lost nothing from the GFA. It was meant to be win-win for everyone.


Now, can you tell me why you would want to be in a devolved Government as a minority party in a UI.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Everyone, except a few old Republicans in dingy bars with several pints taken, realise that they were defeated.

Why oh why would Unionists allow themselves to be shoved into power-sharing by the British, and the British allow the IRA out of jails in their hundreds, and former IRA commanders in government, and the IRA Army council directing SF in Stormont if the British had defeated them?

You do not treat defeated people the way the British treated SF.

I sort of feel sorry for you, you literally can't see Ireland in terms other than victory or defeat. As I've said before you are beyond reason on these issues.

feargale

downcow wrote: »

I think you must have missed this bit
"You can say as many times as you like that the Unionists lost, but we have got absolutely everything that we had 25 years ago, and you have got absolutely nothing that you and the IRA aspired towards."

Forget Sinn Féin and the IRA for a moment. Give us your take on John Hume.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Why oh why would Unionists allow themselves to be shoved into power-sharing by the British, and the British allow the IRA out of jails in their hundreds, and former IRA commanders in government, and the IRA Army council directing SF in Stormont if the British had defeated them?

You do not treat defeated people the way the British treated SF.

I sort of feel sorry for you, you literally can't see Ireland in terms other than victory or defeat. As I've said before you are beyond reason on these issues.

I am sure you know that the major opposition to gfa from unionists was the release of convicted killers on both sides. That was hard for innocent victims to take and many could not accept it. It is easier now as they would all be out now anyhow and most did not get involved in violence again.
For people like me who voted yes to gfa, knew that the the sf hierarchy needed that (and nice salaries to fund holiday homes) to get this over the line with their pawns.
You completely misunderstand the gfa if UI think it contains power sharing. And as for republicans agreeing to sit in a british administration in Stormont - if carlsberg done agreements!
The Ira nothing for ‘Ireland’ out of gfa they got holiday homes, feeling of importance administering British rule, and their mates out of prison.
.....but then the last time 10 men took their own lives for the cause, the same leaders got MP roles and sharp suits while there foot soldiers got bigger sausage roles and erring their own clothes.

You still haven’t told me what great power Irish government have over ni. .....and even that was true, it’s ironic that sf/ira carried out a 30 year sectarian murder campaign to get FF & FG control of ni lol

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am sure you know that the major opposition to gfa from unionists was the release of convicted killers on both sides. That was hard for innocent victims to take and many could not accept it. It is easier now as they would all be out now anyhow and most did not get involved in violence again.
For people like me who voted yes to gfa, knew that the the sf hierarchy needed that (and nice salaries to fund holiday homes) to get this over the line with their pawns.
You completely misunderstand the gfa if UI think it contains power sharing. And as for republicans agreeing to sit in a british administration in Stormont - if carlsberg done agreements!
The Ira nothing for ‘Ireland’ out of gfa they got holiday homes, feeling of importance administering British rule, and their mates out of prison.
.....but then the last time 10 men took their own lives for the cause, the same leaders got MP roles and sharp suits while there foot soldiers got bigger sausage roles and erring their own clothes.

You still haven’t told me what great power Irish government have over ni. .....and even that was true, it’s ironic that sf/ira carried out a 30 year sectarian murder campaign to get FF & FG control of ni lol

Downcow....Unionists opposed the GFA from the start and the DUP have since.

Flegs Parades and sharing the same room as Taigs opposed but defeated on because you lost the power to control those things anymore.
What you could control - by nefarious use of the petition of concern you were also defeated on when your government went above your heads and gave those righrs.
Like a limp blanket you tried to muster reaction to the British imposing a border in the Irish Sea (doing what Republicans knew the GFA would do and what unionists have even said out loud-- nudged NI closer to a UI) but are a beaten docket on that too.

We dont need 'power' over you...we know the British will do our bidding. Look what happened when they tried to go off the reservation on Brexit...they conned you guys...not us.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Downcow....Unionists opposed the GFA from the start and the DUP have since.

Flegs Parades and sharing the same room as Taigs opposed but defeated on because you lost the power to control those things anymore.
What you could control - by nefarious use of the petition of concern you were also defeated on when your government went above your heads and gave those righrs.
Like a limp blanket you tried to muster reaction to the British imposing a border in the Irish Sea (doing what Republicans knew the GFA would do and what unionists have even said out loud-- nudged NI closer to a UI) but are a beaten docket on that too.

We dont need 'power' over you...we know the British will do our bidding. Look what happened when they tried to go off the reservation on Brexit...they conned you guys...not us.

I appreciate your honesty Francie that Irish government do not have power over us. The rest of you post is nonsense particularly that unionists opposed gfa from start. I am a unionist and I voted yes so you are patently wrong

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Well, I for one am delighted that unionists have lost nothing from the GFA. It was meant to be win-win for everyone.


Now, can you tell me why you would want to be in a devolved Government as a minority party in a UI.

Oh I don't want to be in a devolved entity within a united island.
Do you want to be in a devolved part of the UK?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The IRA that was so heavily infiltrated it was defeated argument, when it suits, and the IRA that is still operating and pulling the strings in Sinn Fein when that argument suits.

Do us a favour downcow...convene a meeting of Unionists and get the story straight will you...it has long since become a stale pivot point for a weak weak argument. Trimble trotting it out is just pathetic.

Help me. I don't see the slightest contradiction in this statement?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

Oh I don't want to be in a devolved entity within a united island.
Do you want to be in a devolved part of the UK?

I understand that you don't want a UI, but in the event of a UI (democractially voted for in a referendum) you said you would be looking for a devolved NI/Ulster within a UI. I just want to understand why you would want that as it would mean you would be in a minority in this devolved Assembly.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I understand that you don't want a UI, but in the event of a UI (democractially voted for in a referendum) you said you would be looking for a devolved NI/Ulster within a UI. I just want to understand why you would want that as it would mean you would be in a minority in this devolved Assembly.

You didn't answer my question?

But our peoples have lived apart for 100 years. We are quite distinct now. Even just practically around culture, needs, wants, we are diverse.

Also we currently equality proof any changes in NI. That would surely continue and I don't think that it should be imposed on the rest of Ireland. eg if you wanted to rename Londonderry it would need equality proofed to see we were ok with it :-)

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You didn't answer my question?

Which was: Do you want to be in a devolved part of the UK?
If voted for in a referendum, I'd accept it.

But our peoples have lived apart for 100 years. We are quite distinct now. Even just practically around culture, needs, wants, we are diverse.

Is there not a distinction between NI nationalists and NI unionists who have different wants and needs? How would you propose to deal with them now that unionists would be in a minority?

Also we currently equality proof any changes in NI. That would surely continue and I don't think that it should be imposed on the rest of Ireland. eg if you wanted to rename Londonderry it would need equality proofed to see we were ok with it :-)

Equality is guaranteed in the Irish Constitution. If you feel hard done by, you can take the Irish Government to Court over it. Ireland is signed up to the ECHR etc.



As for changing the name of places - that could be handled democratically by residents of the area (as well as Irish language signage etc).

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I appreciate your honesty Francie that Irish government do not have power over us. The rest of you post is nonsense particularly that unionists opposed gfa from start. I am a unionist and I voted yes so you are patently wrong

So who opposed it then? Who still hates it and never accepted/signed up to it?

Belligerent unionists is the answer you are looking for along with dissident republicans.

The rest - republicans and moderate unionism worked the agreement and will continue to.

If you voted yes then you would be happy with what it has delivered so far...but you aren't.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Help me. I don't see the slightest contradiction in this statement?

Of course you don't because you would be admitting to talking rubbish. It makes no sense to believe both at selective times.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Which was: Do you want to be in a devolved part of the UK?
If voted for in a referendum, I'd accept it.

Is there not a distinction between NI nationalists and NI unionists who have different wants and needs? How would you propose to deal with them now that unionists would be in a minority?


Equality is guaranteed in the Irish Constitution. If you feel hard done by, you can take the Irish Government to Court over it. Ireland is signed up to the ECHR etc.

As for changing the name of places - that could be handled democratically by residents of the area (as well as Irish language signage etc).

you really do struggle with questions. I did not ask you if you would accept it, I asked you the same question as you asked me i.e. would you want it?

Well I do not sectarianise Northern Ireland quite as much as you. Of course there are differences between Northern Ireland nationalists and Northern Ireland Unionists, and of course there are differences within these blocks, and within the many other communities in Northern Ireland. I do believe though there are much greater differences between the people who have shared a place in the North which has came through 40 years of sectarian conflict compared to the people in the south who have not really been touched by it.

How about answering my question?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course you don't because you would be admitting to talking rubbish. It makes no sense to believe both at selective times.

Francie, do you ever ever answer a question. Here is the statement you felt was contradictory "The IRA that was so heavily infiltrated it was defeated argument, when it suits, and the IRA that is still operating and pulling the strings in Sinn Fein". I am telling you I see no contradiction in it and I am asking you could you tell me what I am missing

feargale

downcow wrote: »

Francie, do you ever ever answer a question.

I'll defer comment on Francie answering a question.

I would like you to answer this one which you appear to have overlooked:

feargale wrote: »

Forget Sinn Féin and the IRA for a moment. Give us your take on John Hume.

downcow

feargale wrote: »

I'll defer comment on Francie answering a question.

I would like you to answer this one which you appear to have overlooked:

Yeah, it is a difficult question and I am honestly not sure I am qualified to answer it. I live 100 miles from where John Hume operated and lived. As a teens and 20s Unionist, I certainly was not a fan. But years ago by, we get older, and reflect on stuff. He was coming from a very different place than me and his politics were probably diametrically opposed.
I think he was genuinely a man of peace. I was really impressed the other day when I heard that as a history teacher he encourage debate, and asked his catholic schoolchildren too often take on the position of Unionists in the debate. That is very progressive

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie, do you ever ever answer a question. Here is the statement you felt was contradictory "The IRA that was so heavily infiltrated it was defeated argument, when it suits, and the IRA that is still operating and pulling the strings in Sinn Fein". I am telling you I see no contradiction in it and I am asking you could you tell me what I am missing

Your problem is you don't recognise an answer when it is given. It is ridiculous to suggest (on competency levels alone) that an organisation that has been so 'infiltrated' operated successfully and is still operating. It makes not the slightest bit of sense.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your problem is you don't recognise an answer when it is given. It is ridiculous to suggest (on competency levels alone) that an organisation that has been so 'infiltrated' operated successfully and is still operating. It makes not the slightest bit of sense.

Many organisations in many different countries have been infiltrated down the years.This is successful if the infiltration goes undetected and is able to continue.
Do you really think the British have`nt infiltrated current organisations they see as potentially hostile?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your problem is you don't recognise an answer when it is given. It is ridiculous to suggest (on competency levels alone) that an organisation that has been so 'infiltrated' operated successfully and is still operating. It makes not the slightest bit of sense.

They are controlling Sinn Fein, that is hardly operating as a sophisticated paramilitary organisation. They are old men like Bobby story

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

Many organisations in many different countries have been infiltrated down the years.This is successful if the infiltration goes undetected and is able to continue.
Do you really think the British have`nt infiltrated current organisations they see as potentially hostile?

I dont see point of this infiltration tbh,if it cant stop all attacks


This myth ira was riddled and on brink of defeat was an old ruc report complied in an effort to prevent major taking surreveilence etc off them and giving it to mi5 in early 90s

......25 years of conflict,effectively stalemate,billions poured into at time state of the art spying/observation and they were reduced to flying rubbish in/out of watchtowers.....if this is a military/security sucess,what deos failure look like??

downcow

Deleted User wrote: »

I dont see point of this infiltration tbh,if it cant stop all attacks


This myth ira was riddled and on brink of defeat was an old ruc report complied in an effort to prevent major taking surreveilence etc off them and giving it to mi5 in early 90s

......25 years of conflict,effectively stalemate,billions poured into at time state of the art spying/observation and they were reduced to flying rubbish in/out of watchtowers.....if this is a military/security sucess,what deos failure look like??

Blazz did you ever turn up those magic beans you promised????????

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

They are controlling Sinn Fein, that is hardly operating as a sophisticated paramilitary organisation. They are old men like Bobby story

It's an old story meant to mollycoodle unionists who think that Britain hold all the aces.

They had a couple of spies...'completely infiltrated' is a load of unsustainable nonsense and codswallop.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Many organisations in many different countries have been infiltrated down the years.This is successful if the infiltration goes undetected and is able to continue.
Do you really think the British have`nt infiltrated current organisations they see as potentially hostile?

It's more likely the British establishment has been infiltrated given the path they are on. How many times have they and Unionists have their asses handed to them in the last few years, by everyone from the Rooskies, to the EU to the Yanks.

feargale

downcow wrote: »

As a teens and 20s Unionist, I certainly was not a fan.
He was coming from a very different place than me and his politics were probably diametrically opposed.

You and he had different aspirations re the constitutional position of NI. That's a given. Had you any other problems over him?