How long before Irish reunification? (Part 2) Threadbans in OP

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You know what is strikingly different DC...both the SDLP and SF have been calling this bonfire wrong and unwanted for a number of years...Unionist politicians get themselves photographed at them and don't criticise most of the 'cultural' activity.

And please don't disgrace yourself gloating about injuring people when you don't get your way. No doubt you will get plenty of likes from the usual few but you are fooling no-one.

This, like the 11th bonfires is just thuggery and belligerence...nothing to do with 'culture'

It would be called cultural appropriation among twitter folks

Though usually it only involves appropriating the best of someone elses culture........oh wait a minute

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

You will also note that I would not try and roll that out to degrade your entire Irish culture.

Let's ban bonfires altogether and prohibit flags from public furniture and streets/roads then DC?

Let's face it, if we did the above your culture (counter culture is perhaps more accurate) would take a serious blow.

timthumbni

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Awful lot of complaining about a park named after Ramond McCreesh when, 'nobody' knows who he is, Tim.

Aye, I forgot about him to be honest. Imagine naming a toddlers play area after someone like that though. The state of thon.

I would think the same if unionists named a park after Billy Wright. It’s frankly bizarre, weird and quite sinister.

timthumbni

The IRA’s sole mission statement was to bomb and murder their way into a so called “United” Ireland. A complete oxymoron of course, but it took 30 years of blood for the slow learners to understand that.

They failed of course, as NI remains part of the UK. They FAILED to get da England out of da Ireland as Mary Lou would say (and indeed laughably held a sign in some silly St Patty’s day parade in the US.)

Tis a pity the provos wasted so many lives to fail in their oxymoronic fantasy. Like how would the provos blowing up wee weans in some northern English town ever bring about a laughably so called “United” Ireland. I know the old story of how in pokey the loyalists lifted weights whilst the provos read books. For all their claims of intelligence they really must have been quite dumb though. The British exist in Northern Ireland not through the BA, rather though the people itself. This is what the IRA failed to understand and republicans in general still fail to understand.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

The IRA’s sole mission statement was to bomb and murder their way into a so called “United” Ireland. A complete oxymoron of course, but it took 30 years of blood for the slow learners to understand that.

There would have been very little blood shed if unionists had accepted the Sunningdale Agreement in 1973.

They failed of course, as NI remains part of the UK. They FAILED to get da England out of da Ireland as Mary Lou would say (and indeed laughably held a sign in some silly St Patty’s day parade in the US.)

Is that the banner of the Brehon Law Society that you are trying to slag off?
https://brehon-law-society.com/

The interesting thing about that photo is how young the people are carrying it!

Tis a pity the provos wasted so many lives to fail in their oxymoronic fantasy. Like how would the provos blowing up wee weans in some northern English town ever bring about a laughably so called “United” Ireland.

It seems to have worked well for British Army and loyalist terrorists killing innocent Irish men, women and children such as the Dublin Monaghan Bombings. Presumably you are inferring that innocent Irish men, women and children in NI deserved all they got from these same terrorists.

I know the old story of how in pokey the loyalists lifted weights whilst the provos read books. For all their claims of intelligence they really must have been quite dumb though. The British exist in Northern Ireland not through the BA, rather though the people itself. This is what the IRA failed to understand and republicans in general still fail to understand.

According to Ed Moloney I think, when Paisley was asked why he went into Government with Sinn Fein, he said that the British Gov. forced him into it as they told him it was powersharing or a united Ireland.

jm08

downcow wrote: »

You are getting all mixed up Tom. Of course either party can shuts Stormont, but shutting it does not bring a united island any closer, so it is a rather strange analogy your are making. More clutching at straws..

What does shutting Stormont down do?


By the way, you still have not answhered this question which I must have asked you 10+ times.

In the event of a UI, why do you want (you already said that you would want a similar situation of devolved government that you have now with the UK) to be in a devolved assembly as a minority with Sinn Fein?

timthumbni

jm08 wrote: »

There would have been very little blood shed if unionists had accepted the Sunningdale Agreement in 1973.
Is that the banner of the Brehon Law Society that you are trying to slag off?
https://brehon-law-society.com/



.

Well considering Irish republicans shot dead some wee female journalist in Londonderry quite recently I’m understandably sceptical about your fantastical claims of very little bloodshed. I ask again what the Ira hoped to achieve by blowing up weans in some obscure northern English town? Surely even the most diehard Irish republican would not defend that.

Re the ridiculous banner of England get out of da Ireland I don’t need to slag it off. It speaks for itself. Luckily the opinions of dopey Irish Americans mean little to me. England get out of ireland indeed. Embarrassing but then again hardly surprising.

jm08

timthumbni wrote: »

Well considering Irish republicans shot dead some wee female journalist in Londonderry quite recently I’m understandably sceptical about your fantastical claims of very little bloodshed. I ask again what the Ira hoped to achieve by blowing up weans in some obscure northern English town? Surely even the most diehard Irish republican would not defend that.

Its a fact though timthumb, if unionism had gone into powersharing with the SDLP (John Hume et al) in the Sunningdale Agreement, there would have been very little blood shed in Northern Ireland. Unionism had a second change for peace and rejectedit again in the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985.



Since the GFA (20 years), there have been 158 'security-related'' deaths. That includes the 29 that were killed in the Omagh bombing and 41 of the deaths relate to the loyalist paramilitary internal feuds.Compare that to pre-GFA where for example in 1972 (around the time of Sunningdale) 450 people were killed in one year.


The IRA apologised for the Warrington Bombing so they are not defending the Warrington bombing where the two boys were killed.



Quote from Martin McGuinness: "The killing of Johnathan and Tim was wrong. It should not have happened and there is a responsibility on all of us to bring about a peace process."


Its interesting to see that Claire Fox who is getting a peerage as recently as last year refused to apologise for supporting that bombing.
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/labour-call-for-claire-foxs-peerage-to-be-blocked-after-failure-to-apologise-for-supporting-ira-bomb-in-warrington-which-killed-two-children

Re the ridiculous banner of England get out of da Ireland I don’t need to slag it off. It speaks for itself. Luckily the opinions of dopey Irish Americans mean little to me. England get out of ireland indeed. Embarrassing but then again hardly surprising.

You seem to have got very excited over a little banner in a parade. Bearing in mind who the Brehon Law Society is, I doubt if they are dopey Irish Americans. Look it up.



Michelle O'Neill's uncle, Paul Doris was chief fundraiser for Noraid. He as actually born in Ireland, so I don't think you can refer to him as being some 'dopey Irish American'. There are plenty like him who left NI during the troubles to work in the US, so are well versed in conditions in Northern Ireland.

feargale

downcow wrote: »

Yeah, it is a difficult question and I am honestly not sure I am qualified to answer it. I live 100 miles from where John Hume operated and lived. As a teens and 20s Unionist, I certainly was not a fan. But years ago by, we get older, and reflect on stuff. He was coming from a very different place than me and his politics were probably diametrically opposed.
I think he was genuinely a man of peace. I was really impressed the other day when I heard that as a history teacher he encourage debate, and asked his catholic schoolchildren too often take on the position of Unionists in the debate. That is very progressive

downcow my posts must be coming up in invisible ink because you seem to keep missing them.

Could you answer this one?

feargale wrote: »

You and he had different aspirations re the constitutional position of NI. That's a given. Had you any other problems over him?

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

What does shutting Stormont down do?


By the way, you still have not answhered this question which I must have asked you 10+ times.

In the event of a UI, why do you want (you already said that you would want a similar situation of devolved government that you have now with the UK) to be in a devolved assembly as a minority with Sinn Fein?

I don't recall ever saying that I wanted a devolved Northern Ireland within a united Island

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I don't recall ever saying that I wanted a devolved Northern Ireland within a united Island

Your Post 2920:

Firstly I would absolutely disagree with Unionists replicating the IRA sectarian murder campaign. It got the IRA nowhere and caused horrific grief.
I guess their initial request would be for a devolved NI within a united Ireland - same as nationalists had when they were in the UK. But that is just a guess.

saabsaab

A 32 county Ireland will need a new name, new capital new flag. I believe it's not far off.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

Your Post 2920:

My question was, where do I say I wanted a devolved ni within Roi? As you claimed I had
You are quoting me saying that it may be an interim objective of any loyalist terrorist organisation.

downcow

feargale wrote: »

downcow my posts must be coming up in invisible ink because you seem to keep missing them.

Could you answer this one?

Diametrically opposed politically but I admire his intention to stay peaceful.

Unfortunately he did preside over the demise of a nationalist party which followed mainly peaceful means and give the political wing of a terrorist organisation a lifeline just as the terrorist wing was facing defeat. He helped their leaders swap their combat jackets for Armani suits. I don’t believe this was intentional just niaive

jm08

downcow wrote: »

My question was, where do I say I wanted a devolved ni within Roi? As you claimed I had
You are quoting me saying that it may be an interim objective of any loyalist terrorist organisation.

You didn't say ''devolved ni within ROI''.


You said:


''Firstly I would absolutely disagree with Unionists replicating the IRA sectarian murder campaign. It got the IRA nowhere and caused horrific grief.
I guess their initial request would be for a devolved NI within a united Ireland - same as nationalists had when they were in the UK. But that is just a guess''


Can you just answer the question - Why would you/unionists want a devolved NI within a UI when it would mean unionists would be the in the minority with nationalists/republicans in this devolved NI?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Diametrically opposed politically but I admire his intention to stay peaceful.

Unfortunately he did preside over the demise of a nationalist party which followed mainly peaceful means and give the political wing of a terrorist organisation a lifeline just as the terrorist wing was facing defeat. He helped their leaders swap their combat jackets for Armani suits. I don’t believe this was intentional just niaive

So you must really think bad of Trimble who said of the Anglo Irish Agreement 'that no little violence might be needed to bring it down'.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

My question was, where do I say I wanted a devolved ni within Roi? As you claimed I had
You are quoting me saying that it may be an interim objective of any loyalist terrorist organisation.

No he/she isn't, he/she is clearly quoting you talking about 'Unionists' in that post...this is just more back tracking from something you said downcow.

Firstly I would absolutely disagree with Unionists replicating the IRA sectarian murder campaign. It got the IRA nowhere and caused horrific grief.
I guess their initial request would be for a devolved NI within a united Ireland

jh79

Francie, based on your local knowledge is that article consistent with the rumors?

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/sinn-feins-conor-murphy-and-the-provo-boss-linked-to-paul-quinn-murder-39001943.html?__twitter_impression=true

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Francie, based on your local knowledge is that article consistent with the rumors?

https://amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/sinn-feins-conor-murphy-and-the-provo-boss-linked-to-paul-quinn-murder-39001943.html?__twitter_impression=true

What rumours?

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What rumours?

That it was McCabes gang that did it?

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

That it was McCabes gang that did it?

Well that is hardly a 'rumour'. The journalist clearly says 'he is accused of it'.

We'll all get a chance to review the evidence when it gets to court.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

You didn't say ''devolved ni within ROI''.


You said:


''Firstly I would absolutely disagree with Unionists replicating the IRA sectarian murder campaign. It got the IRA nowhere and caused horrific grief.
I guess their initial request would be for a devolved NI within a united Ireland - same as nationalists had when they were in the UK. But that is just a guess''


Can you just answer the question - Why would you/unionists want a devolved NI within a UI when it would mean unionists would be the in the minority with nationalists/republicans in this devolved NI?

I honestly don’t know what you’re asking me.
I have no desire for a devolved Northern Ireland within a united island, because I am completely opposed to a united island.
I was asked what I thought loyalist terrorists may have as their objectives in the event of a united Ireland. I was stating that they may look on a devolved Northern Ireland as a method of increasing autonomy as they would drive towards a separate state.
If you are asking me, in a hypothetical GFA vote for a united island, why I would prefer a devolved Northern Ireland within it? There are lots of reasons which I think I outlined in previous posts, but the number one reason is to keep the integrity of Northern Ireland as much as is possible. I would be pushing hard for separate institutions, maintaining national teams in the sports that they currently exist in and pushing for an increase in sports in which Northern Ireland would be represented. A devolved Northern Ireland would allow us to have our own flag and anthem in the same way as Scotland do within the UK. It would allow us to have different rules around Irish language, etc. I could go on and on.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I honestly don’t know what you’re asking me.
I have no desire for a devolved Northern Ireland within a united island, because I am completely opposed to a united island.
I was asked what I thought loyalist terrorists may have as their objectives in the event of a united Ireland. I was stating that they may look on a devolved Northern Ireland as a method of increasing autonomy as they would drive towards a separate state.
If you are asking me, in a hypothetical GFA vote for a united island, why I would prefer a devolved Northern Ireland within it? There are lots of reasons which I think I outlined in previous posts, but the number one reason is to keep the integrity of Northern Ireland as much as is possible. I would be pushing hard for separate institutions, maintaining national teams in the sports that they currently exist in and pushing for an increase in sports in which Northern Ireland would be represented. A devolved Northern Ireland would allow us to have our own flag and anthem in the same way as Scotland do within the UK. It would allow us to have different rules around Irish language, etc. I could go on and on.

'Integrity of Northern Ireland'???? Jaysus.

It is an abject failure since partition. It requires the vigilance of two sovereign governments to constantly monitor it under the auspices of an Agreement lodged in the UN.

Integrity? It has zero integrity. It failed.

feargale

*feargale nudges downcow towards post 3190 and shines a large halogen lamp on same to assist downcow in reading it*

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I honestly don’t know what you’re asking me.
I have no desire for a devolved Northern Ireland within a united island, because I am completely opposed to a united island.

I know you are opposed to a UI as are all unionists.

I was asked what I thought loyalist terrorists may have as their objectives in the event of a united Ireland. I was stating that they may look on a devolved Northern Ireland as a method of increasing autonomy as they would drive towards a separate state.

Actually, I just wanted to know the reasoning as to why you and loyalists, in the event of a UI, would be looking to retain a devolved NI as it is, in partnership with Sinn Fein.

I would be pushing hard for separate institutions, maintaining national teams in the sports that they currently exist in and pushing for an increase in sports in which Northern Ireland would be represented.

Separate institutions - like the NHS? Fire service? Northern Ireland office with an Irish Minister (like Sec. of State) who is in charge?


Who would you be pushing for a separate teams for Northern Ireland? World Rugby, Olympics, FIFA/EUFA, Hockey people.

A devolved Northern Ireland would allow us to have our own flag and anthem in the same way as Scotland do within the UK. It would allow us to have different rules around Irish language, etc. I could go on and on.

Would the flag and anthem be an agreed one for all the people of NI or would it be just one for those who consider themselves British? Would nationalists who live in NI (now the majority) have a say?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No he/she isn't, he/she is clearly quoting you talking about 'Unionists' in that post...this is just more back tracking from something you said downcow.

I am not backtracking. I have just stayed a range of reasons I would prefer a devolved ni of the hypothetical united island ever happened. But it is most certainly something I want
I am still waiting for the quote that says I want a devolved ni?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Integrity of Northern Ireland'???? Jaysus.

It is an abject failure since partition. It requires the vigilance of two sovereign governments to constantly monitor it under the auspices of an Agreement lodged in the UN.

Integrity? It has zero integrity. It failed.

You’ve gone off on one. And you have taken the wrong definition of integrity. I was talking about keeping something in one piece as one unit

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You’ve gone off on one. And you have taken the wrong definition of integrity. I was talking about keeping something in one piece as one unit

It doesn't conform to any variation of the meaning...it was never 'one unit' either, it failed precisely because it created two societies and an artificial majority that Unionism completely usurped and twisted until it went up in the flames it did.

Fionn1952

jm08 wrote: »

. Would the flag and anthem be an agreed one for all the people of NI or would it be just one for those who consider themselves British? Would nationalists who live in NI (now the majority) have a say?

I don't know if you're asking a rhetorical question, or if you genuinely don't know the modus operandi of people like Downcow.

Some people in the North never got past the fact that it's not exclusively their dominion to do with as they please. The idea of a democratically decided future for the North is fantastic so long as it lines up with their wants.....the second that changes, well we only have to look at Downcow's own admission that he would try to, but could not guarantee he would remain peaceful.

Fortunately he isn't representative of the majority of Unionists, despite his insistence to the contrary.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

A devolved Northern Ireland would allow us to have our own flag and anthem in the same way as Scotland do within the UK. It would allow us to have different rules around Irish language, etc. I could go on and on.

Who is us? Because nationalists, and others, who'd just voted to end British jurisdiction would find you guys trying to wheedle them back into some sort of neo-norn-iron absolutely hilarious.